witches and magic in the bible, (from FMs cauldron)

i think this is a truly interesting post and as i didnt see anyone replying to it under the cauldron i wanted to bring it out here for some responses.

Magic, Witches and the Bible

If you’ve been reading posts in this topic then I don’t need to explain the modern day definition of witchcraft or witch. If you haven’t read anything here before, please see the articles listed on the right hand side of MY BLOG, read the first four, then come back here and read this.

Before we take a look at Witchcraft in the bible, let’s look at Magic and the Bible. There are two types of magic in the Bible. The magic or miracles condoned by God- some examples are: Moses gets water from a rock EX 17:6 And Joshua commanding the sun to stand still, JOSH 10:12, 13.

This type of magic shows the “proper alliance with a higher Spiritual Power” thus giving its user magical powers to do Gods Bidding. This is beneficial magic, Gods people were using positive magic to get what they wanted, or what He wanted for them.

There are then, also the quotes about improper use, people using these powers without the sanction of God - Ex 22:18 Any woman using unnatural powers or secret arts is to be put to death. (The Bible in plain English).

So why am I pointing this out?

To show that in the bible Magic Happens. And according to the bible it doesn’t matter if you do magic or not, it’s whether God gave you the Divine right too or not. (Do not bring up Satan at this point! If you feel the urge to do so go right now and read “Do Witches Worship Satan, then you may come back and finish)

Stay with me I’m going somewhere with this, just hang on.

[blockquote] A quick history of Magic and it’s relationship to the developing western civilization.

Ancient roman law recognised the difference between beneficial magic such as healing, herbal treatments, blessings, prayers, divination etc.. And harmful magic --evil doing, hexes, curses and the like.

This concept existed into early European civilizations. There was good magic- given by the Gods/God- healing, divination, miracles and harmful magic. Those condemned for witchcraft usually were midwives practicing without a licence, taking business away from the leechy physicians.

During the 9th and 10th centuries the church began to condemn witches because they decided that even beneficial magic belonged to God and therefore only His priests could have access to this power.

The Theology faculty at Paris University officially made <i>all magic</i> heresy in 1398, regardless of God given or not. Anything suspect of being supernatural in anyway, and not performed by a priest, was heresy and a pact with Satan.

This shows that the concept of beneficial magic being evil is a uniquely Christian, they had the power, they made the laws. As we see in other cultures, Native American, for example the distinction between harmful and beneficial magic was/is still made. Shamans and Medicine men/women perform healing and good magic for their peoples. They avoid the evil spirits and even the tricky ones like Coyote. [/blockquote]

My point? To show how we’ve reached this place. To show HOW people, and Christians especially, have come to view witches as bad, evil maleficos.

[blockquote] It was either Shayno or Graceshaker who asked Why should we as Christians not run from a proclaimed witch, when the Bible calls witchcraft a sin?[blockquote]

This is taken from Easton Bible Dictionary and is the best sum up for answering the above question: Witchcraft - (1 Sam. 15:23; 2 Kings 9:22; 2 Chr. 33:6; Micah 5:12; Nahum 3:4; Gal. 5:20). In the popular sense of the word no mention is made either of witches or of witchcraft in Scripture.

Yes the Bible does say in Ex 22: 18 thou shall not suffer a witch to live (King James).

We need to look at what the term “Witchcraft” meant to people when these words were written and what “Witchcraft” means to the people who practice it today. When we do that we discover that they are two very different things.

Ex 22: 18 in Latin, Maleficos non patieris vivere. (Latin Vulgate 408 CE) The word Maleficos translates to criminal, wrongdoer, magician, enchanter, sorcerer. ADJ- wicked, criminal, nefarious, evil, harmful etc…

None of these words describe modern day Witchcraft. The craft is benevolent in its practices, do not seek to harm or engage in criminal behaviour.

We all know that there are verses in the bible saying that slavery is okay. (EX 21:7-9 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do.

There are verses that say when a man dies and his wife does not have children, his brother will lie with her and beget a child in his name. (DEUT 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

When two angels of God come to warn Lot about the impending destruction of Sodom, the men of the town demand Lot send these angels out so they can lie with them. Instead, Lot offers the crowd his two daughters. Remember Lot was considered a “good Man” and is saved. (GEN 19: 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.)

In today’s society, we don’t do that sort of thing. It is wrong now, but not then. Yet it’s in the Bible, but that does that make it okay?

The same can be said about witchcraft, the definitions have changed, and society has changed. Let me repeat that again—The definitions have changed, and society has changed.

In the 1400’s Ex 22:18 was used as the grounds to commence persecution of witches. The Malleus Maleficarum (the witch hammer) was written at this time giving detailed descriptions of both witches and the best methods to torture them.

This is how a witch is described and how to be tortured: [blockquote]The method of beginning an examination by torture is as follows: First, the jailers prepare the implements of torture, then they strip the prisoner (if it be a woman, she has already been stripped by other women, upright and of good report). This stripping is lest some means of witchcraft may have been sewed into the clothing--such as often, taught by the Devil, they prepare from the bodies of unbaptized infants, [murdered][/b] that they may forfeit salvation.[/blockquote]

What a bunch of Bulls*it.

We know that witches do not have any connections to the Devil. (read Do witches worship Satan? http://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?b...earch=fairmoon) Witches to not murder babies, that is the most horrible taint to witchcraft. Like all people we love our children dearly.

When the King James Version of the bible was written (late 1500’s early 1600’s) the stigmas of witches’ evil ways were in full swing and people were scared of them.

When looking at record of the trials one can note that many killed for witchcraft were family-less widows with little money. Why does this matter?

It matters because when you turned in your neighbour you could claim their property and possessions, so long as there was no family to claim it. These women didn’t have enough to hire a lawyer to speak for them, or had family to do the same, but perhaps they owned a cow and a couple of chickens. If you turned her in, and she is deemed a witch those chickens and that cow become yours. A good thing if you have hungry kids.

Also many of the European witch persecutions included those who were practicing healing medicine. This put them in unlawful competition with the physicians and clergy of the time, who claimed healing as their exclusive domain. See above.

Thought out history what witchcraft is, or made out to be, has been altered to suite the men in power as a form of social control. Make your peasants scared of witches and then create ways of controlling them but controlling their fear. “I can save you”, “God can save you.” “Turn is a witch and you can be saved” (get your neighbour before he gets you) Etc… Much like today and the fear based society we live in, expect we’ve substituted terrorists for witch.

It becomes a question of semantics in the end. The definition of the Bibles version of Witchcraft is not what Witchcraft truly is.

So, my conclusion is this. Just because the Bible says so, doesn’t make it true. While I respect the bible as a wonderful piece of early literature, inspired by man’s relationship to God, it has become dated to our modern times and society and should not be used as the primary source of judgement.

thanks I'm interested in here what ya'll have to say

FM

said the witch. LOL just yanking your chain FM.

this desereve much attention.

so then your argument is that magic (miracles) is/are "nuetral". but you say "good magic come from a proper allignment with a higher spirtual power." you do not however come to any conclusion about "bad" magic. where does that come from?

back to your quote. And according to the bible it doesn’t matter if you do magic or not, it's whether God (the God of the Bible) gave you the Divine right too or not. my question as a Bible believing Chritstian is this does the God of the Bible give modern witches the Divine right to practice magic?

Good questions! and if my brain wasn't stuffed full of gooy mucus i'd be able to answer the questions. I'l get back to you, when my sinuses are clear!

FM

My thoughts are that hell is a dreadful proposition to those who substitute the worship of the Creator for the worship of creation. Idolitry, no matter how you define it, is simply a means to a terrible result.

Repent and come out, you will find the peace and grace of God far more rewarding.

Tallen I respect you and your beliefs and request that you do the same.
Will we agree on the path to the Divine? Unlikely.
Love thy neighbour, creates the expectation of tolerance and compassion, even when there are differences of opinion. Please respect my request to not be preached at again.

Blessings,
FM

Tallen I respect you and your beliefs and request that you do the same.
Will we agree on the path to the Divine? Unlikely.
Love thy neighbour, creates the expectation of tolerance and compassion, even when there are differences of opinion. Please respect my request to not be preached at again.

Blessings,
FM

FM, why would I not tell you the truth about the path you have chosen? Should I step out of the way and let you end in your distruction? I am not disrespecting you, I am respecting you by not lying about your endeavor. There is not one once of disrespect in my post, only concern for your choice to substitute the worship of God with the worship of the created. I would emplore you to repent of the desire to please your own intellect with a faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ and His gift of joy and peace.

Unless God or Jesus talks to you personally, I can not believe that you have absolute authority over the Right path to the Divine.



I not here to be converted. I am here to share a diferent path to the Divine and perhaps take some steps towards interfaith relationships and religious tolerance.

If we’re really and truly going to get anywhere with religious tolerance in the world, We’re all going to have to stop preaching and actually try a little tolerance and compassion. Lets look for what’s similar within our faiths rather than strip down the differences. lets Practice some acceptance and unconditional Love, isn’t that what Jesus taught?

Again I ask you to respect my desire to not be preached too. We are going to disagree with this and I am not going to begin mudslinging with you.
FM

God has spoken through his word FM. It is the scriptures themselves that tell me that idolatry is wrong. It is the very center and heart of the Christian message, consider the first four commandments.

It does not matter to me in the least bit, I am told to preach the Gospel of the crucified Christ that died for your sin of idolatry. He shed His divine blood and underwent the penalty for all who will repent of their trespasses against the law that condemns all men. Even the law that forbids idolatry.

I am not asking for religious tolerance, I am asking you to repent and come to the person that loved you and died for your sin. There is no tolerance as long as I know that your way is leading you to a dreadful end. Hell is no place I want another human being to experience, and destruction is not what I want to think about you facing. I cannot and will not let that end come to you if I can help it, as I love you and want God's salvation for you. I cannot in good conscience let you continue in something I am divinely told to tell others to repent of. BTW, there is no similarities in our faiths, my faith is in a God that tells me that He will judge you and destroy your soul for the sin of idolatry, and He tells me to tell you that and all who will follow your method. Unconditional love is telling you something for your good not looking for ways to assist you to continue in sin. What did Jesus say about idolatry and those that follow false religion? It is the very same message I am telling you FM. Your appeal to Jesus teaching of love is an appeal for me to tell you what he said.

I would ask you to respect my desire to preach to you. The Gospel I preach causes division, and I know that from the start. But the Gospel I preach calls people out of the darkness that vails their mind and causes them to do things contrary to the will of God. It is not something I want to do to offend you with, it is something I want to do because I love you and care that a fellow human is heading toward a terrible end. How could I sit by FM and watch a person get hit by a train when I could have tried to stop that person? It is the same with the Gospel, I cannot sit by and watch you head toward distruction, when I can make an effort to stop you.

What law?

What law?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Exo 20:3 KJV)


Which means TM, that we can have no other gods in the sight of the true God. There is one God who is to be worshipped and He would have us to worship Him alone. A divine law forbidding the worship of anything other than God. This is a fundamental to the Christian religion, and the duty of every Christian to point out.

Within Christendom there are many different laws and ideals of said laws. While in all, the Ten Commandments are respected, there are not considered absolute by all Christians. In the Church that I belong too, this is the case. I was taught to respect The Commandments in Sunday school, but also taught that the Laws of My Country are to be followed more strictly.

I appreciate your concern over my soul. However, what you need to understand about my faith and me is that I am saved. Perhaps not in the same way that you term ‘saved’, but regardless of that, within in my faith I am a Child of God and saved.

I’ve read all the posts here [at the Holy Wild] about what it means to be saved, and again, the terms are different but the end result is there. I’m not headed towards hellfire and all consuming pain and destruction. My faith does not hold those things to be true.

I don’t believe in hell. I don’t believe in needing to be saved to get into heaven, or that only certain religions, or even certain sects of a religion, have special backstage passes to heaven.

The freaky thing is I learned to believe this in Sunday school, Christian Sunday school. As much as I’m a Witch, I’m Christian too. Much like my best friend who has duel citizenship in Canada and the US, I have a duel faith and that faith, in the end, is between me and God.

There is no person on this planet who can speak for God. He speaks for himself, and me and him… we’re all good.

I’ve been thinking about theses questions for a while, and they are hard questions to answer.

And I think my answer is going to be a long one because one has to really understand Pagan theology if my answers are going to make sense. I know we’ve talked about this stuff before, so I apologise if what I say you’ve already read. First, actually I’m going to answer a couple of the questions that got posted in the cauldron long time ago,

Question: what divinity do Wiccan’s worship?

It’s my personal opinion that Wiccan’s don’t ‘worship’ any Divinity. I’m sure that many out there would disagree (but it’s likely that a lot of what I write they would disagree with and I’m okay with that), but I’ll stick by my comment. We don’t worship, we honour. What’s the difference?

A feeling. The idea of worship makes many picture themselves on their knees, humbling themselves before a more powerful overlord. That image makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

Honouring, doesn’t diminish the power and awe of Divinity, but shows it respect from one spiritual entity to another. I honour my relationship with divinity, but I do not give it power over me. I am not saying I feel that we are equal to the Divine, not at all.

I’m having trouble explaining myself. Let me put it this way. In my relationship with my husband, we both have our strengths and our weaknesses. I respect both my husband’s strengths and his weaknesses, if he desired he could be overpowering and domineering (he’s a lot bigger than me, stronger too), but he respects me and my strengths and weakness. He doesn’t exert his authority and though different we are and our relationship is one of equality.

I believe that Divinity respects me in the same way and desires to treat me with that same respect.

So how do Wiccan’s describe this Divinity?

Again, a bit of a convoluted answer because each type of Wicca views the divine in different ways. Again this isn’t something we all agree on. The concept that I believe in however is the concept of Universal Deity/Divine.

This concept says that all Goddesses and Gods are parts of a higher power that has either a male or a female persona. Individuals Gods are like the facets of a diamond, each face unique, but part of a whole. Humans have taken this universal deity, or universal energy, and anthropomorphised (I love that word) it into a construct they can then comprehend.

They are archetypes created to explain something unexplainable.

The Greeks had there pantheon, so did the Romans, Norse Tribes and Celtic, etc… The Hebrews had Yahweh and then he altered into the Christian God.

A Wiccan might say, Man created God in his Image. (Yes, I know the ranting that’s going to cause)

This personification is often called Personal Deity. People feel a connection with a specific pantheon, or individual Goddess or God because of the qualities they represent to that person.

For example, I feel close to the Goddess Brighid, of the Celtic pantheon. She is the Goddess of Hearth and Home, Healing and wisdom. She was later turned into St. Bride.

Yet even though this personification gives me comfort, I know that she is like a path to a higher being where they all take us.

So where does ‘bad’ magic come in to this? It doesn’t. Wiccan’s believe in “harming none”. ‘Bad magic’ would bring harm to a person, so we don’t believe in it.

Does ‘bad magic’ occur? Probably, but it’s someone’s own doing, not given by some evil deity. There are people out there I’m sure that attempt to use ‘magic’ in harmful ways, but I know don’t any.

If we believe that all magic (power, energy, whatever) comes from the same source, the Universal Divine, then bad magic must also come from there. But it doesn’t come as bad, it’s when it’s within in a bad individuals hands that is get distorted to bad things. Just like the atrocities that in the past were preformed in the ‘Name of God’, it is the'receiver' of the power that abused it, not the 'giver'.

On to the next question: does the God of the Bible give modern witches the Divine right to practice magic?

I don’t know any Wiccan’s who would ask the God of the Bible for permission.

Staying in tune with the Universal Divine concept than a witch believes that the Christian God, like the Gods of the Roman pantheon, is a personification of the universal divine. Yahweh was created to conform to the needs and comforts of the culture that created him. And over time as times changed he changes to fit the needs of society that believed in him.

Most Wiccan’s view Him, and Jesus with respect, at least those who weren’t ostracized from their families for being different do, but do not believe in him as one of there personal deities.

However, the Universal Divine, does give Wiccan’s the divine right to practice magic if they want to, because the Universal Divine created all things, therefore he/she/it created these abilities within all humans. But you know what shayno? Most Wiccan’s don’t practice magic and stuff. All that hocus pocus junk is better left to the movies.

Personally, because I believe in the God of the Bible, I do believe that He does. Again it comes back to the harm none belief. Beneficial magic, the same as prayer, brings comfort and healing to the people on this planet. My flourishy spells are my way of praying for my fellow man. You believe in Jesus’ teaching of compassion and Love. I do too and any sort of spell that I do follows those guidelines and would not contradict the teachings of Jesus. Just like your prayers.

Does that answer your questions?
If you have any more, just ask.

(Before anyone tells me Jesus abhorred witchcraft, you’d better be able to back it up with a Jesus Direct quote, I mean Red Letters from the King James, otherwise, don’t bother.)

How could you follow the guidelines of Jesus teaching when that teaching is directly against the Jesus of scripture?

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mat 5:17-18 KJVR)

There it is, right in the red letter edition of the KJV. If Christ has said that one jot or tittle of the law will not pass away, how could one not worship the only true God of His teachings?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Exo 20:3 KJVR)

And consider:

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. (1Sa 15:23 KJVR)

FM:

I have been reading "from a distance" and since you invited questions at your last post, I have a question. Perhaps you have answered it elsewhere, and if so, point me to the post.

How did you come to the place to hold and follow Wiccan beliefs and practices? Has this always been your faith practice?

As you ponder the question, I imagine that a christ followers way of thinking and approaching life might be frustrating for you and others. I wanted to share with you my faith journey and experiences and why i choose to follow christ and his teachings...

----

I grew up in the "bible belt". Christianity was as much a part of the social culture as high school football on friday nights. now that I am 30+, a cancer survivor, married, a father, and a hopfully a little wiser, my faith in christ has become my personal choice rather than society's desire for me.

I will be the first to admit the "good news" christians share sounds ridiculous! It does seem archaic and out dated and judgemental (for the christians sucking in air, stick with me now). i have learned that one person's perception is often their reality. some christians (I am going to step on some toes now) spend more time actually worshipping the bible than they do god. yep, I said it because they hold the bible in higher esteem than the creator. This might help you understand why most Christ followers hold to the teachings of scripture so closely, why we study them, why we memorize, quote, and meditate on them.

we are taught that the bible is god's written record of the revelation of himself through the incarnation of the god/man jesus christ. it is a written "letter" of faith and practice. this is why we do believe and are willing to turn our worlds upside down having experienced god invading our lives knowing the good news is true.

for me God is "than that which nothing greater can be conceived"; he is the "unmoved mover", but more importantly he is someone that I have personally experienced and encountered and surrendered my life and will to. he has entered my life and become my guide, my coach, my everything. i use these terms because although he is my savior and lord - those are church words that christian insiders use. i don't know that they speak to a non-christian world in the 21st century.

to answer the ? from your blog, for me, if the bible somehow was obliterated, i could and would still follow Christ because he is real to me. now there is really no way for me to fully explain that in words via the net, but i can tell the story of my life and share with anyone that God through Jesus is real and alive and weaves himself through every aspect of my life and being. he is both in and out of the pages of the bible. christianity is more than just the bible.

after 10+ years in corporate america and 7+ years of seminary, (I am also a slow learner!! )I realize how preachy us christians can sound. we mean well but we don't always come across with the intention we have. i am what some may call a church planter. my "job" if you will is to better understand why people have given up on church and reject Jesus either through indifference or rebellion and see if there is a better way to share the message of Christ for a 21st century culture. i believe that there are a number of people who are very interested in god and finding out more about God but the way our culture has said you can know god is through a system of religious tenants that the church holds that often are outdated with weird language and customs. i talk to people all the time that have been wounded by christian people and the church. in fact, i dare say that some of the meanest people i know are sunday christians. it is a sad state of affairs. not all christians are that way. some of them are just a part of the "system". It is the system of wondering why people believe and practice what they do that intrigues me, thus my question to you. Help me understand how you have come to the place you are at making the statements you make.

i believe there is more to life and "church" than a set of religious beliefs. i believe god teaches that we are to be real and authentic with people. (for the christians, we are not watering down the gospel or spitting in the face of jesus to do this). Jesus did not drive just for a full confession of sins - he invited people to turn from following their own ways to following him. a person with questions and a need for his son to be made well came to Jesus. Jesus said all things are possible for anyone who believes. the man's reply is often a part of my prayers, Lord - I belive, help my unbelief.

We are on a journey following christ, believing him to be who scripture shows us he is and longing to become more like him. The good news is not archaic, it just needs a new expression and 21st century language to help those outside of the christian community understand why we believe so firmly the things we believe.

I hope this might help you understand where I am coming from and not muddy the waters so that you and I and others might continue our interfaith dialogues. I am very interested to hear your thoughts, how you make important decisions, who you turn to in times of trouble, jubliation, sorrow, etc., and as stated above, how you came to this place and point of your journey.

Peace to you all...


LifeLongLearner (LLL)
Life is hard. Faith is messy. God loves.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your story.

I'm pretty sure that I have at some point, somewhere, told the story of how I ended up here, but I have no idea where, so I’ll retell it. Especially because I am on of those people some would consider "have turned away from Christ"

I grew up in a very open-minded Christian household. We went to church every Sunday, I went to Sunday school until I was fourteen, we took part in church events, most of our friends were members of the same church etc...

The church was/is our community and support for my family.

At fourteen I was confirmed into the church, I became a member. A choice I made, and took the required classes for. At that point in my life I didn't really understand what sort of choice I made, I didn't really question it. I liked going to church, my friends were there, and we always had a good time.

A few years later I began to question everything especially religion was one. What did I believe? In my family, and my church we were taught to think for ourselves, to ask ourselves is this 'true for us'? do we really understand God's word? How do these beliefs relate to the community and social times we live in? Are the laws of the bible (written 2000 years ago applicable to modern day? This was both supported and encouraged.

I began to read books about Christianity and about other Religions; Buddhism, Hinduism, and Pagan faith. It was very confusing. So many contradictions and so many horrible things done through out history in the name of this religion, or that religion, that I came pretty close to just chucking all of it.

But I couldn't. I’ve always had this drive to understand the Divine, or as I would have said then God. So I kept on my reading.

I have always had a need to be connected to Spirit/divine/God/whatever term you choose. My husband believes in a higher power, but what form it takes etc, he doesn’t really care about. It doesn’t affect his day to day life, so he doesn’t read like I do. I have a need, a drive, to connect with and have a relationship with the divine.

What drew me to the Goddess and ultimately Wicca was the comfort and the peacefulness I felt when I thought about the Divine in a feminine form. I found this ability to connect through the rituals of Wicca. In Wicca you learn to be connected to the divine at all times and in all ways. You learn that because the divine created all things, than a little bit of the divine is in all things.

You can see and feel the divine in flowers, a grain of sand, the night sky.

I know that a lot of people find this same comfort in Christianity, but to me Christianity had a piece missing, and I found that missing piece in Wicca.

Partly it was the need to have something feminine in my faith, but it was more than that too. In Wicca your relationship with the Divine in one on one you and Him/her, and no one can tell you that it’s right or wrong. Every Wiccan has a unique relationship with God defined my that person and God. My relationship is mine, different and unique; no one tells me what it is, or how it should be.

Again some might say that the same is possible in Christianity, but so often you're told what to believe. You have to believe it cuz the bible says so, or this preachers says so, or Paul said so, or the pope. Whatever.

None of that exists in Wicca. There isn’t a lot of dogma that MUST be believed. Wicca is very confusing when you first start to learn about it because each Wiccan is different, believes in different things, follows different practices. It’s not ‘organized’ like Christianity, which makes it hard to understand when you are used to organized faith.

And that’s the draw too. Living within the chaos is a great was to figure out how to stand still and hold what you believe and allow the rest to spin off around you.

As I get older and learn more, and my faith is challenged. I’m coming to a better understanding of my Christian faith as well. And I am beginning to find a peace and comfort in God as well as Goddess.

As I’ve said in the post to Shayno, I see the God of Christians and the Goddesses in Wicca all leading to the same higher power, the Universal Divine, just through a different path.

A lot of what you say about Jesus I believe too. I chose to look at it from a different point of view. You say, “Jesus said all things are possible for anyone who believes.” I would say “the Divine makes all things possible for anyone who believes.” Same idea, just different words.

You ask me, “Help me understand how you have come to the place you are at making the statements you make.” I think we hit these loggerheads because Wiccan theology is very different from Christian and in a way we have to learn the background before moving on. This is one of the reasons I’ve posted some longer posts (here and in the “Who were the other people” thread, so that I can share some of the background)

All I can really suggest, if you are truly interested, is to visit my blog (if tblog ever gets its glitches worked out) and read some of the posts that I’ve written there. Or if graceshaker is amenable I’ll post them in the cauldron. I am happy to discuss my faith with anyone who is interested/curious/ and open to listening.

Does that help?

FM

I don't put anyone before God. There is only one.

FM

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim. Because you have rejected the word of Yahweh, he has also rejected you from being king." WEB

For to go against his orders is like the sin of those who make use of secret arts, and pride is like giving worship to images. Because you have put away from you the word of the Lord, he has put you from your place as king. BBE

For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And selfwill is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, He hath also rejected thee from being king. DBY

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. KJV

for a sin of divination 'is' rebellion, and iniquity and teraphim 'is' stubbornness; because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, He also doth reject thee from 'being' king.' YLT

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The context of this quote is extremely important. Samuel and Saul have been told by Yahweh to go and smite/smote/utterly destroy and kill all the people of Amalek. They are told to kill everyone, even the babies, all the animals and all the crops.

Saul goes and does this, but decides not to kill everyone. And he chooses the best of the animals to keep for himself.

Yahweh comes to Samuel and asks why this is so? why have they been so arrogant as to believe the can 'divine' (know) what god really means. The choose to interpret Gods word for themselves, they go against his orders.

In this quotes true context it has nothing to do with the faith of modern Wicca or witchcraft.

FM

Thank you FM. I will read further on your blog and would like to continue our conversation.

Did my response provide any insight into your question about what would happen if the bible disappeared?


LLL

It's too bad that you missed the message by looking for a way to justify your behavior. It is this legalistic thinking that is introduced in the garden by Satan and has plagued man since. The point being made is that Jesus taught a message that is properly understood as a legal message as well as a spiritual message. And He did not release those who hear his message from the law of God which prohibits worshipping other than the one true God. It is these principles of having one God and a message of worshipping that one God, that was at the heart of Jesus message consistently throughout. It takes spiritual eyes and ears to understand this message FM, not a legalistic justification of ones own rebellion and idolatry. That was His words in the red letter edition of the KJV that was provided and which you conveniently ignored opting to look at why the other verse did not apply to you. It is those people, who are like Saul, that do not listen to that message that are committing a sin like witchcraft because they are in rebellion agaist the Lord, and it is those who are stubbornly resisting the words of God that are in idolatry. For the rebellious make a new way of their own substituting the way of God and the stubborn worship their own way instead of following God's. It is this message FM, that Jesus consistently and faithfully preached, that you are ignoring. That is why, when you appeal to the message of Christ's love, you also appeal to the message that He preached in total, for it is that message that He preached in love.

Yes context is extremely important, and so is knowing the message of that context. It is those that search the context at the cost of loosing the message that fall into the age old trap of deception, and the tired old trick of Satan, who uses the word of God to take attention off from the message of God. Leading people away from God and the worship we need to give to Him.