Dear fellow Craftworldians,
I have been collecting for a long time and I'm frankly more than a little concerned at the way the hobby appears to be going. I have the latest codexes and I can see the following trends: Lack of customisation of model's wargear, general dumbing down of units by limiting options (especially when one has spent the time collecting mekboys with, and or customising forcefield generators and such like then finding them limited to just one character) and perhaps most insiduous, the emphasis that seems to be developing on "cookie cutter" armies. Let me explain, basically my armies in both Chaos Sp Marines and ork's are now and have been "forced" into being:Troops=one guy with a powerfist/klaw and the rest as cheap as possible, cheap army leader and the rest on those units that have the most beneficial rules/abilities per points cost. I'll point out at this juncture that I don't play tournaments but my group are quite competitive amongst themselves. I have played since the second ed. and am glad the system has evolved but I'm scared that the reduction of customisation available in the dexes is gonna turn me off playing, as my mate who had eight man metal terminator squads in his blood angels army is now considering quitting, solely due to the its five or its ten limitations imposed on many units. Ch Sp Mar suffers from this too. I know they want us to buy more stuff, but this will I fear finally start to erode the loyalty of older players such as myself, who had just finished collecting the parts for a proper cult Deathguard army, all sevens, nurglings, plaguebearers, Typhus etc etc when the new codex came out and completely pantsed that idea (several hundered dollars I'll have you know). Just paint 'em another colour or collect a daemon army I here you cry. Well, you know I just don't want to, I'd planned out my army to a great amount of detail before making the purchases to find that I'd wasted quite a bit of money, and I resent that. But more I resent the removal of the flavour of the Chaos army, and the Eldar to a lesser extent (Biel tan got nerfed) and the orks, well just buy lots of boys, and tactically you are screwed if your opponent has any dreadies or similar high toughness critters, they'll just get bogged down, unless you've got that powerklaw I was on about.
Ah cr*p, sorry about all this people, its just that I "have a bad feeling about this" as many a StarWars character is wont to say. I probably haven't explained myself too logically and there will be those who can refute what I've said point for point, but "I feel a strange disturbance in the force, as if a million dice cried out in anguish" I hope you know what I mean. Rant over.

I hear you Morning Fresh. The way that the Chaos Codex was "simplyfied" was horrible. I'll admit, there were some nice changes in there for some units. But as a whole the armies of chaos have turned very generic due to the fact that it is very difficult to field dedicated armies. Like you, my brother was collecting a pure Nurgle army, but the release of the new codex saw some punishing defeats for him due to the fact that he just couldn't field enough troops with the points he had to stay the numbers of my Necrons. That's right, my NECRONS outnumbered him at least 2 to 1 and they outnumber their oponents even less than Space Marines usually do. As a result he had to either field some normal CS to pack in a few troops and less Plague Marines, or (as he chose to do) field some Thousand Sons so he could at least get some long range fire support happening. Either way, he broke his dream of fielding a pure Death Guard army, and though is content with his army now I understand why other players wouldn't be.
Khorne players who fielded masses of Blood Letters are now shortchanged, the very interesting and customizable rules of the Possessed has been simplyfied to the point where squads that weren't rivals before can now beat the possessed to a bloody pulp, and the undivided legions like Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion have been utterly destroyed.

Now anybody can rant and rave about the short fallings of a codex until the cows come home. But when the Chaos, Orks, and even Eldar have been radically simplyfied into generic lists they become boring to field. I'll admit that the Eldar got off very lightly comparatively, but the loss the craftworld rules meant a lot of armies lost their individuality. I used to be a Beil-Tan player, and was able to field scorpions and Banshees and Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders as my basic troops options and run rings around my oposition. Now I have to throw away points on Dire Avengers and Pathfinders (who do have their uses), but ultimately detract from my style of play as I can't field the magnitude of aspects I once could.

A few of my friends have criticised me as a winger for my negative attitude to the forced change of my army list. They say "adapt, try new things." I don't want to adapt! I liked my army list the way it was! I liked all my aspects tearing at my oposition so they didn't know what was coming from what direction until they had a face full of Eldar firepower and combat prowess. Just like Morning Fresh liked his Chaos Nurgle army and doesn't feel like changing it.

It just feels unfair that some army types seem to get left out in the cold, and players are forced play simple, boring, generic lists. At tournaments if you ended up playing against your own race at least there was the chance of Iyandenn fighting Beil-Tan, or Khorne fighting Nurgle. Now, if you're fighting an army the same race as yours, you may as well be fighting yourself.

And you may call us wingers and winers, but seeming as we don't get a choice in the matter and have to play it GW way, I think we're entitled to a little contempt.

Cal

I think you said it best here, Cal:

Well, not being the swarthy GW games vet that some around here are, I can't say as to the total evolution the game has had over it's life, but even realizing that the company has made some very poor decisions, I am still hoping that the motivation for rules changes and codex updates is mainly to improve the game rather than to force people to dump more money on new figures just to get their army updated.

I personally think that is a stupid business plan, since I will spend money on stuff anyway. If I don't want or need to buy any more Eldar, I'll buy some Orks, or Necrons, or Tau, or Marines... or Fantasy stuff, right?

I do agree to some extent that greater customization of an army is a good thing. I heard someone say once that one should be able to pick an army based on what they like, then customize their list to their play style based on the selections from that list... not the other way around where you would have to pick the army solely based on how you want to play. This would seriously diminish your ability to customize your tactics as if, say, you played Necrons and they expected you to have a certain style and strategy with them, that would make your game totally predictable, and not so much fun.

With Eldar being my main army, it seems that there are dozens of different ways to chalk-up a list for the since they have five different options to take as troops and a ton of aspects... but I'll have to agree with them that Aspects should be limited since they really are elite-type troops. Seriously though, you can still field an army with Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Dragons, Hawks, Spiders, and Spears... there are enough slots for them all. You just can't put six units of Fire Dragons on the table... not only does it not make sense, but it just seems wrong.

Anyway, I guess since I haven't seen the new Chaos codex, I'm not sure how bad it is, but I do hear the moans though. I just hope GW gets their heads out of their butts soon, or as you fear, they may be toast.

yes the dumbing down of the game is starting to get very annoying. may as well just play Risk. when and if the new DE codex comes out its going to be make or break for me, cause unless there are new troops im not waisting money buying new models.

Going just by the last one (Orks,) I think it turned out well. I haven't tried to play them yet, but the one time I played against them, they seemed to work well (and whupped me... not that I'm that good.)

I fear the day when they bring out the new SpaceMarine Dex. I already dislike Combatsquads.

On the other hand my Spacewolves might become a great army now that JJ is leading. He's an SW player if i heard correctly.

The same could be said about Wraith Guard. The Eldar detest the idea of awakening their dead, and only do it in times of extreme need. Fluffwise they'd be less common than aspects in most armies, yet people still choose to field armies filled with them.

The fluff of the Beil-Tan was that they were an entirely millitarized craftworld. While other Craftworlds take soldiers from their citizen populace (forming the Guardian squads), the Beil-Tan kept a constant stream of soldiers being set along the path of the warrior, and a millitary run society.
Think of the Beil-Tan as "Spartan" Eldar. Everybody says: You can still field avengers, they're aspects. Avengers are not aspects, their guardians in fancy armour. Though they have their uses, I detest that I have to throw points at them before I can field the real aspects that make up my battleplan.

If you choose to field six troop squads of Wraithguard, that's your prerogative, but it's also 2316 points and you haven't added a HQ. I understand what you are saying, but I think in that case the points are cost prohibitive from having more than two squads of them in your army (Still 772 points for troops?)
Not to mention that your army would be slow and completely one-dimensional.

Fluff-wise, I guess they included that to keep the ability for players to field an Iyanden army. I just threw a quick list together for fun:
HQ: Yriel, Farseer, 4x Warlocks
Troop: 2 squads of 10 Wraithguard w/ Spiritseer
Heavy: 2 Wraithlords
(Just threw various weapons on them) Total: 1497
I'm not sure that it would be in any way effective on the table though. You only have 30 models total in your entire army. Yeah, they're tough, but not a lot of shots there. (Maybe I'll try it out one time just to see how it goes. ;) )

Perhaps, but if you detest using Avengers and only want to save points, then just use two squads of three Jetbikes as your "throw away" troop choice. That's 132 points stripped down. Keeping with the fluff, however... Dire Avengers are supposed to be the most common of the Aspects, so it would stand to reason that they would outnumber any others in your aspect-based army list.

I'm not sure though, why you don't think Avengers are aspects. They have the same stat-line as every other aspect (except for spiders/reapers 3+ AS) and are cheaper (I'm guessing mainly due to their weaponry.) Plus their Exarch's powers make them a bit more formidable than Guardians. I don't use them, personally, but a lot of people swear by them.

Start from the top:

@Morningfresh - GW doesn't care about veterans of the game. If they did, they would have left the bits section up. All they're focused on is trying to get new people into the game, hence the simplification of rules and codices. What they should really do is come out with separate Legion books for CSM Khorne, Slaanesh, etc. and use a basic CSM like SM with the different traits to make Alpha Legion, etc. It'd be a mixture of this one and last ed CSM codex.

@Calaith - I do agree with you to a certain degree. I did cry when I couldn't make my Mechwraith army anymore for Iyanden.

However, the older codex was unsuitable for game play - it was too unbalancing. For exactly the army you listed GW struck down our craftworld list book from play. Starcannonspam, Aspectspam, etc. We can still field Aspect-spam, but by removing the Aspects save Dire Avengers from troops, it balanced out the game play for other armies. Do you think it was fun to play your list? Or was it frustrating for your opponent?

With the added Dire Avengers as only troops, I think, gladly, that it forces people to see the utility of a unit that no one wanted in the previous edition. DA's now are much better and the other aspects are still just as good in the past. DA's have a more defined role in an army and people take DA's perform extremely well.

It sounds like you don't like either Dire Avengers or Guardians. I'd ask you to reconsider them, but I'm not going to force you.

As for Wraithguard-spam, that's nearly unheard of. Yeah, fluff-wise the Eldar hate waking the dead. But that's why the Wraithguard are Elite Choices. For Iyanden or Iyanden-esque lists, the troop choice is still available.

With the old codices for Eldar to the new:

Biel-tan - need more Dire Avengers (the most common aspect). DA's received a boost
Saim-Hann - Jetbikes became a TROOP slot!
Alaitoc - Pathfinders are still an option.
Iyanden - 10 Wraithguard w/ Spiritseer = Troop!
Ulthwe - The unbalanced Seer councils (and Black Guardians) are gone, although you can still take units of Warlocks (much to the demise of our enemies).

@DarthIbis:

The new CSM is awful. It's pure BS. Yeah, it'll have its uses, but it completely destroyed the flavor of Chaos.

Lucky for me that I hate them, then. :P
Maybe Codex Daemonica will "solve" some of those issues, but I guess we'll see.

I've heard some rumours concerning the Daemon codex, apparently coming from Warseer itself. A big dissapointment being that the Daemon codex and the CSM codex cannot be allied or linked. People will probably just field the armies side by side, or come up with house rules, but this was a stupid decision of Games Workshops part...well actually a good decision on GW part really, for GW that is.

@ Mellchia

I don't view any army as spam, cheesy or particularly unfair. I'll admit that there are some extremes people go to, like pumping up their HQ rediculously and taking minimalistic troops. I also agree that at times certain models or wargear is unfairly priced to be too cheap or too expensive. But as far as I'm concerned my oponent can field whatever he likes in his list, and I enjoy the same curtacy.

So what some people call 'aspect spam'. I call a tactically thought through list. And though some "cheesy" (and I use the term extremely loosely) lists do annoy gamers, I don't think I've ever put my oponent off by fielding the good old aspect lists. Most of our games were very even, and even when I found my aspects taking a pounding the list was still at least colourful and enjoyable to play with. Admittedly I was playing against 13th company, which some gamers call cheese too, but my oponent was happy enough to field it and I was happy enough to play against it despite some rediculous HQ stats. ;)

I will admit now that a lot of the aspects (particularly scorpions) got a big boost with the release of the new codex, and if they were going to be fielded as troops would probably require a few extra points thrown onto their cost. But with the expense of Eldar vehicles I currently think that balances out fine now.

My problem with Avengers mainly is that they are terribly slow and do little but run the length of the battlefield before being outgunned by Necrons or Plague Marines or Imperial Guard. Though they could be useful if thrown into a Wave Serpent, I prefer to resserve that priviledge for my Banshees. I will admit again that they do have their uses, but they just don't suit my style of play.

I've rested on Pathfinders. (Ha, try that for cheese/spam, aspects protected by Pathfinders!) Their range means they can affect the enemy early, remain in protection, and complament the Reapers.

Cheers, Cal

Just to clarify:

Spam - taking all of the same unit types/wargears, etc...

Spam does not have to be beardy or cheesy for that matter...

And from the sounds of things, the Chaos Daemonica solves nothing for the CSM player. It adds an additional complexity to chaos, which by all rights is cool. But it does nothing for the CSM, unless your opponent allows you to take allies.

Although I'll reserve a final judgment on the codex for when it comes out.

The latest rumours around codex Spacewolves got me jumping it seems that other SM armies are getting the nerf bat but the Wolfes get considerable advantages.

(no minimizing on special weapons, powerfist/ powerweapons. 20 man Bloddclaw units with furious charge "imagin 5 powerfists coming at ya at S9". Wulfen becoming deathcompany like. And no Combat squads.)

Its somewhat strange what GW is doing but then again i can't complain.

Strangeness from GW should be no surprise.

yeah people cry "spam" or "cheese" when they see some of my DE lists

but unlike other armies i don't really have a lot of options to choose from.
and if the new rule book is going to be dumbed down to much they'll probably loose a lot of the older players who actually enjoyplaying a challenging game.

I hope for their sake that they heeded the cries of the fans when they "leaked" their beta copy of the rules.

The new Marine codex has leeked out as wel.

Sum up:

150 pages no traits but more options for squads. Combatsquads are available but not bound to 5/10 men units, 9 special characters including the old ones.
More options to units and also 4 new units like Landraider redeemer (has inferno cannon wich can realy hurt).
Special Character can influence troopchoice, eg Lysander allowing Termies as troops if i'am not mistaking.
As last a new rule and no Ld reducing for every marine instead of Ld boost from comander.

What do you make of these things, i for one won't complain if this is true.

That actually sounds pretty good, save for the lack of traits now.

But I'm baffled as to why in hell the Space Marines need a new codex when Necrons and Dark Eldar are still sitting out there without one...although admittedly the Necron codex is actually still pretty good in my opinion, and with a hint of new Dark Eldar models it seems their rule book might be on the way.

Special character's influencing troop choices is interesting. If its true what they say about the possability of 5th edition (only troops choices are scoring units) this will allow Space Marines to still field their favourite units on mass and still count towards a victory.

Cal

only troop choices as scoring units well that will be just great for armies like Necrons - 1 troop choice

and DE 1 troop choice either mounted or on foot.

lets make space marines even better

I like the character influencing troops... like Dark Angels and now for Orks. I don't like the rumor about only troops scoring because it cripples elite armies and boosts hordes.

Not to mention combat squads (12 scoring units) But Chaos can do it even better.

6 scoring units of Chaos marines and invinite scoring units of Lesser deamons.