This was I post I've taken directly from the C'tan Support Group made by a Moderator named Lord Visharon. It outlines the newest rumours for the 5th edition aparently coming out sometime this year.

This was my reply I posted to the topic, outlining my personal opinion on these new rumours.

Hopefully this will be more of an improvement. Not being sure how the new vehicle damage table will work, It is possible that skimmers or things that would have received a glance anyway may have a roll modification to better simulate the effects of things like automatic glance an such.

Is it possible that this would be replacing a roll to-hit? Currently, if you miss w/ a blast weapon, it just has no effect... this way, the missile would go somewhere! I wonder if a scatter will be modified depending on the shooter's skill, etc. to like, say d3 scatter in order to represent a "better shot" so to speak.

I think this means "all models" as opposed to "enemy models" because you currently can shoot over friendlies. See p. 20 for the picture.

Maybe they're just trying to give infantry a fighting chance.

I'm thinking that this would mainly apply to hybrid squads such as one that has been joined by an Independent Character. This could be beneficial if you choose to have a tougher model absorb the hits. Now, you would have to roll armour save for the majority (i.e. basic troops) in the squad. I can't see them changing the rule too much in the way of Sergents/Exarchs, etc. for the reason you mention. Otherwise, I'm not sure what to think about this one.

It also mentions that points will be calculated based on a unit's FOC slot. This would imply that elites, heavies, etc. would be worth more in some way.

Like I said before, I would think they would account for that possibly with modifiers. Dumbing it down too much would reduce the impact of different types of hits, so since the current three damage tables are just a progression of each other, why not just have it go 1-8 or 9 and modify the roll for ordinance, etc.

It's not the "to hit" that makes attacking vehicles dificult... it's the "to wound." I can understand this since a unit of infantry assaulting a tank with no CC defenses would be able to "hit it in the weakest spot." They would still have to wound based on S vs Armor value... so a S3 Ork Boy would still not be able to punch through the rear of a Falcon with Armour 10 (since he can only max score 9 on a roll of 6.)

 

Having looked through my new copy of the latest codex, this sounds like a very Orky thing to do. I think this will make things interesting if they convey this to the rules well.

I would say that they may be true about 2/3 of the time, and some rumors are misinterpreted by the masses. Right now, I'm just taking the approach that I'll believe it when I see it and maintain the hope that because many of these changes have been in the works for some time, the last few Codices (including our beloved Eldar, DA, Orks) were written with that in mind.

Logic would dictate that if they feel they have a good base for the rules right now, they shouldn't jack with them too much... just add a few minor tweaks to clear some things up, make some things more interesting, and possibly streamline the boring parts of the process.
(But then again, stranger things have happened, right?)

Yes, the scattering of blast weapons does replace the 'to-hit' role, however I don't think this is an improvement on the rules, or any more 'realistic'. I don't trust scattering weapons to be accurate, they almost never ever hit where you want them to. Plus such a rule would also ruin certain objects in ou armoury. Take the Dark Reaper Exarch for example, who may have Tempest Launcher or a Missile Launcher. You take the tempest launcher and you sacrifice accuracy to be able to shoot over terrain, while if you take a missile launcher you need LoS but you are far more accurate. Not even the extra strength of the missile launcher will be helpful, as most vehicles that you might shoot at are so small that all it takes is a role of a 3 on hte scatter dice and the centre of the template is off the vehicle. Our Prism Cannon was also prided for being capable of mass destruction without a need to scatter.

Thre was another rumour that this was specifically the only new vehicle damage table: 1-2 = crew shaken/stunned (not sure which), 3 = weapon destroyed, 4 = Immobalized, and 5-6 = vehicle destroyed. There was a follow up rumour that any glancing hits were -2 from hte D6 role, meaning vehicles could never be destroyed on a glance. If they kept the old skimmer rules it would be unfair to our oponents, because as long as we kept moving we were virtually impossible to destroy, unless we didn't have Vectored engines. This means they'd have to change the skimmer rules to a 4+ or 5+ cover save, but because of our weak armour we role on 3 or under and our tank is screwed.

Vehicles aren't at all hard to destroy in combat, if the correct unit is used. Fire Dragons, Assault Marines, almost any HQ choice, they and many more units carry melta-bombs. Against the front armour the vehicle still has a mild chance of survival against a whole squad of melta-bombs. But against the rear armour, which is for the most part 11 or 10 on almost any vehicle a melta bomb only needs to role a single dice htat isn't a 1 or a 2 and the tanks screwed. With such a volume of almost garunteed penetrating hits no tank could possibly survive! Even against power fists or units that just happen to have S5, like the Warscythe wielding Pariahs, vehicles would have almost no chance against.

Games Workshop don't seem to be thinking logically these days. Seriously, i think we as the gaming community could probably run the company better than they could. I don't these new rules are a minor 'step up' like 4th edition was to 3rd. There are some parts of the game that are being seriously reshaped almost entirely, and not really for the better.
That said again, I was hostile to 4th edition when it first came out. It may, or may not, be as bad as all that.

Cheers, Cal




EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that fast vehicles can still fire defencive weapons even at top speed...which is rumoured to only be 18" now by the way... :angry: THAT is a nasty rumour.

Obviously you have some valid concerns, and, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to downplay the importance of our armies not being neutered with wholesale rules changes, but I'm not ready to overreact just yet (until I actually see what parts of the anatomy they plan on cutting off.)

Unless I'm missing something, this blast rule will really only affect Reapers, Prisims and Support Batteries. Batteries are only 4-up to hit, so there's a 50/50 chance you are going to miss anyway right off the bat. Here, this would mean you have a 100% chance of hitting something. Then you would still have a 33% chance to hit dead on. If you scatter, you are likely to still get something. I agree that the Tempest Launcher-wielding Dark Reaper Exarch will be most hurt by this change since he hits on a 2-up roll, so he was most likely to strike his target anyway because he gots skillz.

But when you launch that artillery and "miss," where does it go? I think a higher BS might be a good thing to modify the scatter result as a compromise. So, your Tempest Launcher might only scatter half distance... So if you were firing into a squad of Terminators, you shot would be 100% likely to land (previously 83%) and there could be a 67% chance that the shot will land within 2" of the intended target? Unless you are trying to pick-off single troops, I don't think those are horrible odds. B)

As far as the skimmers are concerned, something tells me that they are going to have to keep some differences in there for that since they just don't operate the same way as tanks... that's why the crash is more deadly to us. Given the numbers you've listed, I would more likely think that a glance would be -1 on that table, so that would more-so bring it in line with the current rule. The current tables are really for the most part just a progression as the hit becomes worse and hopefully this is just to "save space" on the reference card. :P

As far as vehicle CC goes... you picked some units that are pretty much awesome at killing those things. Fire Dragons are going to get a "pen" against front armor 14 (worst case) on a 2d6 roll of 6... 5 if the Exarch has Tank Hunter. I think this rule is basically saying, "if the vehicle has no defensive weapons, a squad in CC can freely maneuver to the "weakest" part while fighting it. That tank was going to be toast anyway if Dragons were going to march up to it unabated... because that's their job.

I will agree with you about GW's logic in general. I know you've been playing this game longer, so I may still just have some blind optimism that they won't eff it up too bad... but maybe we'll roll a scatter die to see how far off the mark they will actually land with this one. ;)

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

19" if they are painted red? :D

Wel all ican hope for is that the 40k rule book comes out before the darkelder codex. at least that way the might not get nerfed to badly.

an updat from the bell of lost souls



~UPDATED WITH NEW INFO IN RED

Hi folks, another day, another dollar :) Look what tidbits fell into our little news-hungry hands for you guys to enjoy...

Cover:
All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.
UPDATE: This 4+ cover save applies if you draw LoS through any other unit (friend of foe) other than your target. Normal terrain still has a standarized chart for things from hedges up to bunkers similar to 4th edition.

Line of Sight:
There are no height levels, all terrain is true LoS (even jungles and woods). They will need to be modeled appropriately if they are to block LoS.

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.
UPDATE: The scatter distance is 2d6" minus BS, but if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter-die it lands on target.

Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".
UPDATE: Skimmers do get their cover save if moving at Cruising speed or All-Out.

Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.
UPDATE: Killpoints are still in, in a limited fashion for one mission variant. You now score a single killpoint for each unit killed regardless of its FOC category.

Perils of the Warp:
Perils now causes an automatic wound, but invulnerable saves are allowed.
UPDATE: You must reroll the invulnerable save if it passed the first time, so perils is still dangerous.

Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.
UPDATE: The jury is still out for Monstrous Creatures firing. There are conflicting reports of their firing ability (either 1 weapon or all weapons)...

~If that Monstrous creature only firing one weapon per turn pans out, that could be a nerf to balance out the nidzilla lists... The skimmers only gaining cover saves if they moved over 12" is yet another nail in the falcon coffin. So on balance 5th is shaping up to nerf skimmers of all types, drop the firepower of monstrous creatures, and increase the speed of infantry... Pretty interesting overall. What do you guys think?

So Raiders become only usefull as mobile cover now? But a 18" move seems to me like 1st turn charge for Wyches. Seems DE can now become even more dangerous. (36" max move "o yeah")

I once more show my utter contempt for 5th edition. :angry:

I mean its fine and dandy that the "Skimmers moving fast" rule could only apply to a skimmer moving 12" or over. Most clever players (Eldar at least) should be moving their skimmers more than 12" to get their transported units into combat. But reducing it to only a cover save save is, as I think I've said before, appalling. This is not a balancing of the rules, no matter what some people think. I've played Eldar long enough to know that the Falcons aren't currently as invincible as everybody seems to think they are, and can be shot down by any lucky Lascannon or missile launcher. What's worse is that if one does go down, the size of its cost means a serious dint has been put into the Eldar army. But with only a flimsy cover save to protect us expensive Falcons will be dropping like flies and leaving Eldar armies helpless.

Why reduce the shooting of MC? I've never played nids, though I've heard they can be pretty over powered with shooty Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants. But why not just give them the walker rules for shooting? All guns if stationary and two if moved. Nobody ever complains that walkers are over powered... :huh:

Cal

how about the new LOS rules, "TRUE LOS" what a joke, i like the way they are now. If they're going to do that they'll have to a least make the models a hell of a lot smaller for realism.
looks like going back to the old cr*p way of getting down to table height and saying " i can see the end of that figures barrel so i can shoot at them"

i wont mind the drop in skimmer distance so long as my troops can still get out after an 18" move.

I think that's definite at this point. We're supposed to see the new rules this summer (winter for you upside-down people) July, I think.

I don't know why they have to change things so fast, it doesn't seem five minutes since 4th ed was released. doesn't give you much time to rethink your army before the next ed is out and you have to do it all over again.

I agree whole heartedly, and frankly I don't think 4th edition had any real major bugs in it. I know that many gamers may disagree with me, but I don't think the rules needed to changed or streamlines any further anyway, at least not in a terrible hurry. Try releasing all the new codex's first, then take a year or two to take a breath before screwing up the gamers again with a new edition and new codex's once more!

Still, such is life I suppose...

Cal

from another site



Sat down with the 5th edition rulebook yesterday, and had time to read a few bits in it, most of which royally pissed me off. It seems that the Eldar's recent victories in tournaments have made the designers rethink the way the army works, as in "I think Eldar should be a 3-model army again." Or perhaps, "If you can't nerf it, give it to everyone else for free."

All sniper weapons now Rend, thus the mildly overpriced Ranger/Pathfinder is now horribly overpriced.

All models can run, which works just like Fleet, but you can't charge after Running. Hope you didn't pay the points to have models faster on foot than other armies...

Skimmers Moving Fast is still technically in the rules, but now is effectively useless, requiring that you Turbo-Boost to gain any benefit (4+ cover save) from it. Hope you enjoy paying 200 points for a vehicle no more survivable than a Chimera and with less carrying capacity.

You may now remove CC casualties from anywhere in the unit, not just from engaged models. Hope you weren't too attached to your Banshees or Harlequins, 'cuz now it doesn't really matter who strikes first.

All grenades (other than defensive ones) now work like Plasma grenades.

Other than stuff deliberately designed to make the Eldar army weaker:

Torrent of Wounds can now hit every special model in the unit, rather than just one per Torrent.

There is now a single Vehicle Damage chart a la Apocalypse: Shaken, Stunned, Weapon, Immobilized, Wrecked, & Explodes, with Glancing Hits and AP1 weapons providing penalties and bonuses to the roll. What this means is that vehicles may not be destroyed with Glancing Hits. While I think making AV13-14 vehicles tougher is a good idea, (it now will take 18 Lascannon HITS to destroy a Land Raider) coupled with the screaming nerf of skimmers, it's a little hard to swallow.

Rending against vehicles adds only D3 armor pen.

No more partials, any models touched by a blast are hit.

Shooting through any unit gives a 4+ cover save to models being fired upon.

All in all, I'm going to go start playing AT-43 I think... hmmm... D&D is coming out with a new edition as well...

EDIT: and the one bright spot, double 6s PoW now does a single wound, and insta-kills only on double 1s.

Well...that looks...fun...

I've been discussing the 5th edition with a few of my friends briefly. It isn't likely any of us will want to use the 5th edition...oh well...maybe by 6th edition GW will finally find where they hid their brains two years ago.

Cal

yeah it looks great dosen't it, now eldar and dark eldar are paying more points per model so we can "FoF" and now every other army gets it for nothing.

looks like solid terrain with no windows will be coming into the game more as you wont be able to hide behind anything you can see through

you can imagine "i can see your fire prism/raider through the window hiding behind the building" ill just shoot my las cannon at it


GW a bloody pathetic effort this edition

i also notice they are now selling a "LOS" laser shown in the last WD, gee i wonder why

As for true line of sight thats realy a joke. On another site we already joked around by having our models the option of raising their heads in shooting like 10 cm up wards to get this thing. When done they go down behind cover again.

For the rest i can dance cause Spacewolves become badass in cc eg They get 3 attacks when they are attacked. No downgrade on powerfist as their Truegritt rule (wich isn't listed as universal rule) states they get an extra attack. Also the LD rule does not work on them eg their LD cannot be reduced in cc (LD is reduced by number of casualties when losing combat ,normally in 5th ed.

Take a look at this... :angry:

Taken from the CSG, I went on a massive rant over there about how ludacris and illogical these new rules are. I'm sure I don't need to point out to you guys why the Eldar and Dark Eldar are royally screwed.

I can almost say for sure that I will not be taking part in 5th edition, and hope that by the time 6th roles around GW found where it left its brain about two years back.

Cal

these rules seem absolutetly rediculous,

and im definately not buying the new rule book untill ive had a good long read of someone else's.

looks like spacemarines have taken over GW, and i bet those players will still be whinging.

Ah, but we've gotten even more specific! Its shooty Space Marines that will have the most advantages, and if truth be told the Tau will probably be the best army off closely followed by the Imperial Guard. With sweeping advances no longer spilling into other units, and bullets now being able to zip around corners, plus being able to set up your army knowing precisely where they can best shoot at your enemies...Eldar won't stand a chance against such armies, and even cc Space Marines will struggle!

Cal

Tau will be nerved alot eg Defensive weapons are S4 they use alot of S5 weapons on vehicles.

I am wondering. I had a game with the guys at GW with the new rules. We had 1 copy to use for 6 people. Anyways while grabbing my army I realized something. I can Deep Strike then get into assault. :D . So I tried this with DE giving them Screaming Jets. Of course I killed the Tau with Wyches with ease. So now I recommend Screaming Jets.

By the way. if you guys ask your local GW or work there ask them to glance. They will let you.

Now. I work at GW and we are not assholes. The people you should be blaming is the Shit heads at the High Office. I am pissed cause Guard are now F'd.

Think about it. Guard need to now acually make a fucking gunline across the board. Now those bitchy orks are getting + 4 cover save. Now what the hell are we to do with our missile launchers? We can not mass fire power anymore. We just got F in the Ass.

Now DE have no new Disadvantages. But some new advantages.

Pretty much now Tau and Space Marines are now harder to beat. This is because they are GW best sellers and a bunch of little kids or people to lazy to paint a miniature can now play.

The LOS thing I love. I always had hated trying to shoot 6 inches through a building.

Vehicles are now harder to kill. Live with it.

By the way I loved the 3 edition that was the good one.

Amazing now the peeps at the local stor should be really afraid of my Witch cult army.

Some were laughing at me the last time i took my Witches but took that back after we played, with 5th ed i can say "here comes the Pain"

Good to hear a GW employee talking from the heart! ;D The guys at my local store are nice enough, but will never say a bad word against their own product for obvious reasons.

Could you please elleborate on this?

I have a 5th ed pre-release tournament coming up. And we have to team up and both can take a 750 pts army with them (to make one big 1500 army). So I've been pondering my ass off what to do exactly. You see, we agreed that he'd take care of shooting (he'll bring a Mech. vanilla SM to the table) and i'll concentrate on the assault. So I wanna be as sneaky as DE can be and I ussually bring along WWP's. But that's in 1500+ armies. Now it seems quite expansive.

But if you could please write down exactly how deep striking works in 5th edition, perhaps that's a valid option. Thnx a bundle in advance!

Deep strike and then assault. you gota love that, here's hoping ( crosses fingers)
that will be a great option to negate the new LOS rules

Well you can now succesfully deep strike and unload all of your men.


There is now also a Deep Strike misfire chart but due to copyrights I can not really say what the table looks like. ( Glance at the new White Dwarf)

Do not exceed with warriors as you can not go and consolidate into other enemy units. Other words surviveing one turn of shooting makes a difference.

Try to counter this surrond the men in a box with your raiders to make no shooting befall them for a turn.

Thnx for the reply doom-diver.

But I talked about it with the red shirts at my club (we have three of them hanging out there) and they all said that you can't assault after Deep Striking in the 4th and nothing has changed in the 5th edition. You may only shoot.

In a nutshell this is what they told me. The only two alterations are:

- Mishap table
- Running

The mishap table makes Deep Striking even more dangerous as horrible things can happen. The running makes it saver, as you can 'run' into safety of cover (instead of shooting ofcourse).

So again, how did you Deep Strike and get into assault? Ppff... you guys are confusing me...

Well. Yes you can assault after Deep Striking. There is a mishap table which sucks.
Pretty much you have I believe a 1 - 6 chance of dieing.

Seriously if you don't beleive me look at the Battle Report on the White Dwarf.
I can't really say much more.

Couldn't find it in that battle rep could you help me with it. But anyway after reading the DE dex i got to thinking that we might have been able to pull it off all the time eg Screaming jets and the net thing combined.

BTW would this be something worth considering creating, but then for Eldar and Dark Eldar.

And they shall know fear

@doom_diver: I think you are confused with the vets 'new' special rule in the SM codex that they can assault after DS. The bat. rep. was apparantly not clear on that bit. But it's not a 5th ed. standard rule for everybody, trust me. I've asked 3 red shirts who all have & read the new rulebook.

@space frisian:

"SCALING NETS - 5PTS/UNAVAILABLE
A web of netting hangs to the ground from the Raider, allowing its passengers to get on and off more swiftly. A unit may embark or disembark onto or from the Raider at any point during its move, rather than just at the beginning or the end. They may not do this if it will be moving over 12" in total that turn, and they cannot move before embarking or continue to move after disembarking as it is a moving vehicle. Unfortunately, the nets also provide easier access for foes, and any enemy unit attacking the Raider in close combat hits on a straight 4+, rather than the 6+ usually needed for skimmers. A Raider with Scaling Nets cannot have Scythes or Slave Snares.

SCREAMING JETS - 15PTS/10PTS
The vehicle is fitted with additional high-powered jet engines, which allow it to drop from the skies with a characteristic screaming wail. A vehicle fitted with Screaming Jets can Deep Strike if the scenario normally allows Deep Strike to be used. The vehicle counts as moving over 6" on the turn it arrives and troops on board may not disembark that turn."

See the last sentence at the screaming jets entry? I don't think the scaling nets will overrule thát rule. So... I disagree with you.

And what do you mean with your last question? As in like... should our races actually be able to assault after DS?

I say: "No" in case of DE. Or... partially... for some units like Scourges for example as a special rule like the one for vets in the SM dex. Because we'll be far too powerfull and it'll make stuff hopelessy unbalanced.

As for my question i reffered to the link.

As for making DE more powerfull, why not maybe peeps will start buying them more.

Oh that (some guy posted it over at warseer), yeah that would be awesome. Who's going to create it though. :unsure:

DE are powerfull enough, noobs just don't know how to handle them. I like 'm just the way they are. A connaiseurs army, as the dex states. ;)

well had 2 games today with the new rules, gee it was fun

1st game against Tau. i conceded the game after my opponents 1st turn (before i had a turn) it went like this---
1 bike squad destroyed, all vehicles either destoyed or immobilized. all reserves unable to come on due to the WWP not being activated

2nd game against Vanilla Space marines. i conceded the game at the end of my opponents 2nd turn ( i managed to have 1 turn)

went like this- see above^

terrain was the standard stuff we use every weekend at the club. True line of site just made an absolute mockery of everything. Wow i get a 4+ cover save. so what, i only needed to fail 1 for my AV10 vehicles to get hit, leaving my troops vulnerable to every shooting thing in the 40k universe.

im very impressed with it im going to rush out and buy it tomorrow. :angry: :angry:

lol, Darthken, I'm going to send this post to every 5th edition optimist I know! ;D

Though luck, but the truth hurts. 5th Edition in the bane of creative and colourful army lists, as well as balance and fairness.

At least you can say with conviction now how faulted 5th edition is, I'm still entertaining the thought of a game just so I can speak from a more involved PoV.

Cal

I had three 5th ed. games at a tournament in our local GW this weekend. My experiences weren't like darthken's and i'm quite happy with the new rules.

All missions were about claiming objectives. And we were in pairs and I teamed up with a Space Wolves player. I'll just give the 5th edition related highlights.

1st game: vs. Orks/Chaos
- I noticed how many times my warriors were saved by a 4+ cover save, because I ussually disembarked them behind a raider.
- When a raider did get shot down and was destroyed my warriors got out without entanglement and were hit by a S3 blast (instead of the S4 blast). The remaining squad hid behind the wreckage gaining a 4+ coversave (in addition the TLOS 'caused the chaosplayer to only be able to shoot with 3 man of a squad of 10) + (even more good stuff is the 4+ coversave where in the past they'd be shot down without even an armour save because of the standard AP5 weapons).
- A bad thing though is that Orks were much faster due to the running and locked my fragile warriors in CC before I knew it (I was too eager claiming objectives while I should've waited and decimate the Ork squads by shooting).
- Furthermore i noticed much much more infantry (ofcourse because of the new 'scoring' rule) so I should've brought with me more anti-infantry I think in retrospect.

--> We lost our first game because we were overrun by hordes of Orks and Chaos. (3-0)

2nd game: vs. Orks/Eldar
- We learned from our first game and concentrated our firepower on getting the horde of Orks down before they could reach us (this time we just had plain bad luck though and our dicethrows were horrible). You see, we got to set up first our entire army, so we made the oponnents believe we would fully concentrate on the left flank, so he deployed all his orks there (and the Eldar in the middle). But we are fast enough to pull off the 'redeploy' manouvre (i had Raiders and my teammate had landraiders), so when the game started we actually concentrated fully on the right flank, while concentrating our firepower on the orks (on the left). With the new 5th ed. run option they were STILL too fast at our deploymentzone, locking our fragile right flank in CC. So in retrospect it was not such a good idea perhaps.
- What went horribly well though in this game was my heamonuli with his template weapon. No coversaves allowed/no partials and I flamed an entire squad of Eldar Dire Avengers. Everybody was suprised at the effectiveness, it's really a force to be reckonned with now.

--> But still... Our risky strategy failed due to still underestimating 'running' orks. You just need a few bad dice throws and they'll still be too fast now. We were overrun on our 'exposed' right flank and we were beaten. (2-0)

3ed game: versus Blood Angels.
- Now what struck us most in this game was a disabillity of the oponnents to get used to TLOS. I had a laserpen with me and I kept picking out units I could hit and they kept being suprised because they were SO used to area terrain. So in other words, due to loads of jump infantry and land raiders my teammate adviced me to wait and shoot. So I did and we shot alot in the 1st turn due to ill deployment and more luck on the dice than before. 2nd turn same thing, they just leaped forward taking in objectives, well.. that's fine with us... we picked them out with the laserpen and shot again.
- The result was that before they could actually fight in CC they lost guys with powerfists and I dunno what kind of cool CC weapons due to the new wound allocation and so when we did encountered them in CC they had nothing really to beat us with.

--> We won this game horribly effective. (3-0)

@darthken:
1) Seems like your club needs new terrain. It is 1 of the things GW itself already warned about though. It's now better and lots of fun to have a few ruïns on the table.
2) If you play correctly with raiders they'll only ever should be able to score glancing hits. Else your doing something wrong. Further in 5th glancing hits are less destructive as they were. Plus indeed you get that 4+ coversave at every time if you are smart. And last but not least, even if it is detroyed the guys inside can jump out without entanglement and survive most of the time now 'cuz they hide behind the wreckage (glancing hits can never make the vehicle explode)
3) You need to change the way you play with DE now, that's all... Don't rush off into CC, first make them soft. Ravagers with desintegrators are now súch viable options, they are a delight. A 36" big blast template that always hit (could scatter), but with no partials at a strength of 7! Heamonculi with templateweapons on for instance a skyboard can really hurt your enemies now. We've got one of the cheapest troop choices with 2 heavy weapons ánd two special weapons and perhaps even a sybarite with agoniser for the CC. So now that troops are scoring that becomes very important.

How will this work out when you take wyches as troops?

Yeah, I've said something about that in de Commoragh section of the board. At this point I don't see a full Whych Cult working. Whyches are not really made for holding objectives.

BUT...

With a Whych Cult the only tactic I see working at the moment (purely theoratical) is to soften the opponent with Ravagers and Reavers, keeping a squad (or more) of warriors in the back with dark lances and a portal. Then lay down the portal in turn 2 (or if you have balls of steel in turn 3) and spend the last 2 or 3 turns taking in objectives by having your whyches come out the portal on raiders, locking the foe in CC and beating them. This tactic is very risky and takes a lot of guts. It's more about sneakily taking in objectives in the last 2 turns, utillising DE's speed to the fullest. If there are still Ravagers and reavers alive, they can be used to contest objectives in the last turn. I think the succes ratio is 3 to 10 really, 'cause it's so hard to do...

yes the terrain was 4 ruined buildings 8x8" with all those windows to see trough (similar to the city of death terrain), 2 forrest's (what a waist of time tree's are now), a few bunkers (3)
two 3 layered hills about 5" high which my vehicles and bikes still can't hide behind becausei have them looking good on their stands.

i was hiding behind terrain at the start of the game and unless the terrain is 8" high, 12' long and totally solid with no windows there is really not much point in it

In that game i lost over 1000pts just from shooting, and thats with everything "hidden" behind the terrain