Hi guys,

This post is to clear something up about the Craftworld Eldar. (and because I was kinda bored, and because this is an annoying misconseption.) Craftworld Eldar are not the 'goodies'!

What I simply mean by this is that the Craftworld Eldar are not the snotty little goodies that run around trying to save the galaxy from utter destruction at all costs, and are the Imperium's little saviours/guardian angels. The silly reputation they have for being little sassy girls who are always there to stop the badies is false.

1: My first point being that, yes they do put most their time and energy into fighting against the forces of Chaos, and evil in general. And yes, they do aid the Imperium quite a bit, pulling them back from the brink of destruction more than a few times. But the only reason they really 'help' the Imperium is because things would be a hell of alot worse for them if someone else was in charge. The Eldar litteraly 'use' the Imperium for their own ends, because essentially the Eldar don't have enough millitary might themselves to take on the forces of Chaos, (or Orks, Necrons or Tyranids.) so they use the Imperium as a shield. Call this a wimpy tactic, but it sure beats serving Slaanesh by sacrificing others. ;)

2: The Eldar do not 'aid' the Imperium as such either, they 'use' the Imperium. Much like my last point, the Eldar have the Imperium as a shield to save them from doing most the fighting themselves. The human race is litteraly an empire of 'puppets' or 'tools' for them, nothing more. And when a tool losses its purpose, they dispose of it before it becomes a problem itself.

An example of this is the Beil-Tan, coming to the aid of the besieged Imperial guard who are having a heck of a time fighting off raiding Orks. The Beil-Tan come down, kick some serious Ork butt with the help of the Imperials, then once the job is done they turn on the Imperials and get rid of them. Another example being Eldrad Ulthran, who was responsible for turning Gaskull Thraka on Armaggedon, sacrificing millions of humans so that a few thousand Eldar lives were saved.

3: Taking a look at the Eldar aspect warriors. Yeah they are strict, they will not sway from their path no matter what (well, leaste ways its really rare.), and are experts at killing. And guess what, they actually enjoy killing too! Though they don't use sharp cruel objects to torture their oponent like the Dark Eldar do, they apsalutely love the thrill of battle. looking at the Exarch's, who are Eldar who have become so consumed by their blood lust and desire for battle, that they could not possibly stray from their path. Entrapped on the path of war untill they die.

4: still on the idea of the aspects, Eldar are cold blooded killers. They feel apsalutely no regret for killing, even if it is a defenceless child. As soon as an aspect warrior removes his mask, allregret and exitement from the previous battle simple fades away, like they become an entirely different person. Also, on the note of killing children, they will do this so that the child does not grow up to become a threat later on.

5: Finally the Eldars notation of it always being: 'Me first'. Eldar are incredably smart, and all they ever do their whole lives is serve themselves and the rest of their kin. Selfish and arogant, the Eldar will gladly dispatch thousands of human lives if it will save but a single Eldar life thousands of years into the future. Because of this they seem fickle and unpredictable, but everything the Eldar do is for a reason.

Anywho, if you got through all that I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts. Do you agree, disagree? Or have I totaly changed your outlook on the Craftworld Eldar? Either way I'm hopefully looking forward to some friendly debating.

By the way, most fluff you present when debating usually needs GW written proof. I got most of what I just wrote from Codex Eldar, Codex Craftworld Eldar, and an Old White Dwarf: 237. You really shouldn't submit any fluff to an argument without being able to back it up.

Cheers, Cal

I guess what some people think is that they look pretty wussy compared to the dark eldar....

Of coarse they are cold blooded killers and use the imperium for their own uses, but they dont raid and capture the general public at random, and then take them back to be tortured beyond death.....

I think that that the eldar are pretty nasty but other people who dont play any kind of eldar might lok at eldar, then dark eldar, and assume ones good ones bad.... Like chaos and space marines.....

Brak :)

i never knew that eldrad "sent" gasskull to armagedon that is cool

Well he didn't really 'Send' Ghasghkull (this time I checked the spelling ;) ) to Armageddon. The exact quote from the Eldar codex is:

"It was he [Eldrad] who guided us to the Ork known as Ghasghkull, and commanded us to steer his path to your world of Armageddon. Ten thousand Eldar lives would have been lost if her had not done so. What sacrifice is a million humans for such a cause?" - Codex Eldar, pg 39

It is also known that Ghasghkull was having visions of the Ork gods 'Gork and Mork' who told him he must invade Armageddon. (An Ork player might like to correct me on any specifics.) From this information we could probably gather that perhaps there were Eldar psykers sending the giant Ork powerfull psychic messages he believed to be from Gork and Mork. Or something similar.

ok that is cool

My opinion has generally been that the Craftworld Eldar are the "good-guys", but only in context with the other Eldar (this opinion was aided by the fact that Eldar were my first army), but in context with the rest of the universe, I've always thought of the Imperium as the "good guys", as most fluff is generally from their perspective. The Eldar, I kind of see them as the "sinister-manipulative-guys-who-are-just-a-pain-in-the-arse-to-everybody-else", but I do agree with everything that Cal has stated. Also, I think that the true "bad-guys" of the 40K universe are the Chaos, and I know I'm about to have large amounts of abuse hurled at me by all the Necron players about this opinion...

lol, I am a Necron player as well. But I ain't going to abuse you Lictenstein. :)

I agree with you on the 'Bad Guys' thing. Chaos probably are the biggest bad guys, but ultimately all fluff points to the Necrons being the ones that will bring about the ultimate fall of the Imperium. still realisticaly anything could happen, just depends on the games we play to determine it doesn't it? ;)

Cheers, Cal

Yay! No abuse! :)
I think that a lot of people will agree with me about Chaos being the main evil guys, because they are just so prominent in the fluff of the last 10,000 years.

tch.. tch... Inquisitor, how could you possibly think that! you fool!

sorry couldnt help myself

i dont beleive necrons to be evil, i mean all they do is feed, if it takes the souls of an entire sector so be it but all theyre doing is feeding, its not our fault the ctan are at the top of the food chain =)

I dunno. I never though as Eldar as 'Good' exactly, but then again, neither do I think of the Imperium as 'Good'. Its all relative to your perspective.

Orks don't even understand the concepts of Good and Evil, so how can they be classed as one or the other?

Necrons are automations designed for a purpose and left untended (basically). How can they really be classed?

Eldar can be equated with a cornered badger. Ferocity + Claws = Opponent worthy of respect. Not necessarily good, though by human concepts, easily understood to a degree.

Tau fight for the greater good, so they say, though who's greater good has yet to be determined, and the internal strife the Tau empire now suffers may alter their reasons for conquest.

The Bugs may just be the most easily understood of all races. They have only one major instinct; to live. Nothing else matters, and in order to thrive, they must consume a full planet at one sitting. Not too appealing to those currently residing on the planet, but then again, who are they to stand between a starving creature and its only source of nourishment? Ugly and vile, yes. Evil or Good, no. Just basic creatures who share our universe, but not our sentiments.

Of all races, the Humans (all humans from IG to Chaos) are the most aligned to 'Evil'. Care to guess why?

eeeeeeeer.......... uuummmmmmmmm.......... Because they kill without reason?? i dunno.....

I like your argument but I think it all depends on your perspective and who you are comparing them to. Compared to Chaos the Eldar are pretty nice people. Compared to Tau the Eldar aren't all that nice. ( I am a Tau player and I know that the Tau have almost no internal problems, the only record of a group leaving the greater good is the renagade commander farsight and that is still being debated as to if he has left the greater good or if he forsaw an event in future that would threaten the Tau race and has tookin the matter into his own hands.)

Well there are my thoughts on the matter.

@ Chivi'queleste, I agree, with a clean perspective of the universe, and no biased opinions towards any particular races, you would say that the Imperium arn't all that nice. In reality, they are basically a large (very large) feudalistic empire (to an extent a failing feudalistic empire) who are literally trying to take over the universe.
You could also argue on this that the Necrons are the most innocent of the races (to an extent { :blink: ... please don't abuse me! [again]}), because they are essesntially puppets to the C'tan (programmed robotic puppets, but puppets all the same).
I'd also like to say that Ork players are right, they are just misunderstood.

Obviously, I disagree with both your second paragraphs. But you know me Lictenstein, I'll disagree with you for the point of disagreeing with you. ;)

Anywho, no more talking about cr*p. The Necrons are deffinately not an innocent race, because though they are but pupputs this millenia, back when they were the Necrontyr they were quite an 'evil' race. Leading decrepit lives because of their cancers and diseases, they burned with jealousy when they saw that the Old Ones lived long prosperous lives almost completely free of suffering. So out of the blue the Necrontyr attacked the Old Ones (from what I know completely out of jealousy.) and were only defeated when the Old Ones re-engineared their created races for fighting back the Necrontyr. But no the Necrontyr did not just accempt defeat, they unleashed the most twisted and evil (and powerful) beings in the galaxy upon all life, and then accepted their immortality to become the Necrons.

As for the Orks, we are talking about a race that is so wrapped up in their love of battle that peace is utterly impossible for them. They kill because they enjoy killing and smashing things, and when theres nothing left to kill they go in hunt of more things to kill untill they find it and kill that too.

Cal

Fine. I'll not talk about the Cron's "affinity with good and evil anymore", but on what you're saying, the Lords still do have a glimmer of conscious thought don't they?

Also, the Orks don't know any better so how can they be bad?

The Lords have more than a glimmer of consciousness left aparently. They are quite aware of their surroundings and themselves, and are capable of individual thought. Clever, cunning and fear no mortals, they are the perfect generals of the C'tan. wether it is possible for them to actually betray a C'tan or act out of direction is still being debated though.

Actually the Orks do know better. They know what their doing is violent and bloody and brings pain and suffering, and thats why they do it. They enjoy the challange of a good oponent, and they certainly enjoy breaking their bones. Though not quite the Dark Eldar (the Orks prefer the thrill and Challenge, the DE prefer just causing pain and sufering.) they also don't have the excuse of needing to feed on their oponents like the Tyranids do, so they don't just do it entirely out of instinct. (I said entirely! I know orks are born with the instinct and knowledge to fight and kill.)

Yeah, well at least something I said about the Crons was (appartently "partially") right...

Instict! Therefore they do not know any better (I know this is pointless and I'm going to loose, but I'm bored with all of this damn study)

I'll go out on a limb here and argue the eldar are good. they have their faults , they are ruthless (for a reason) and love battle (only recently in human history has that been a sin) and use people to achive their aims (pragmatic)

But they do not kill without reason
they do not delight in wanton cruelity or torture
they do not enslave

they are a small ancient race, more culutred than those around them yet facing enemies on all sides, they are what they are to survive

lets give an example each race discovers a small peaceful planet of non strategic value inhabited by small furry aliens

Chaos, would kill all , torture and murder and corrupt the planet
Imperials, would kill all in the name of racial purity and possibly virus bomb the planet
Dark eldar , would torture and enslave
orks, all die, slaughtered
necrons/ tyranids , all consumed planet stripped
Tau, would bring it into the greater good if the aliens refused all would die
Eldar, would most likely just leave it alone

I still have a theory relating to this, that the Eldar could join the Tau and use them in a new way. That is if it's not already happeninng...

Maybe Farsight has a psychic presence and a farseer sent him images of the future? Or maybe he is already a thrall...

Well thats kinda in the eyes of the beholder I guess. An Eldar would kill a small helpless baby human if in a hundred years it might grow up and become a space marine and kick all their arses. They'd slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent defencless people if in a hundred years one of them becomes a threat to a single Eldar. Sure thats a reason, but does it outweigh the death of the thousands of innocents who died?

Once again in the eyes of the beholder. The Farseers, Guardians, Rangers and such may not necasserily enjoy killing, but the Avatar and the aspect warriors certainly do. Sure they don't go out of their way to torture people as much as possible, but they certainly enjoy bloodshed and killing. The thrill of combat and spilling of blood is as exciting to them as it is an Ork, (though their more intelegent and less brutal about it.) They see it as an art form and spend years perfecting the art of killing. And they are most deffinately not merciful.

Whats worse is the fact that they can take off this guilt as easily as one could take off a mask. Quite literaly they are dosile beings when their on the craftworld, but as soon as they done their armour they become rutheless killers.


Looking at Lictensteins theory, its possible but I doupt it. I'm not a Tau player so I could be wrong, but I think Farsight uses a Chaos blade does he not,that he found on some planet (I've heard this from other forums.). If he were using a Chaos blade the Eldar would most certainly not be helping him, being the sworn enemies of Chaos, and the larger theory is wether he is working with the Chaos.

As for the Eldar and Tau teaming up, its possible and the Tau would gladly do it, but the Eldar are far too proud to go scuttling around with a young 'lesser' race. The Eldar admit the Tau have some good ideas, but they still view them as foolish and young. The Tau are no different to the Eldar from the humans (tools that can be used to serve a purpose, then disposed of.)

I view the Eldar Aspect Warriors much like we all do, Martial Artists. And, as such, I don't believe that they desire to destroy, maim and kill, only to prevent such actions from visiting their race.

I agree with Chivi'queleste on this one.

You are right Cal, it is a bit extreme, but you have to remember, the Eldar are fighting to survive, and they will do anything to preserve their race.

Firstly it should be (') s (i.e, Lictenstein's)[sorry, couldn't resist]
:huh: Secondly, I don't recall making any theories...

The Tau are young and slightly foolish (They are naïve, they don't understand Chaos as a seperate entity from humanity), this is why I was considering a campaign with my friend where a craftworld joins them, only to later betray them and destroy them when they outlived their usefulness.

The Tau would be wary, but would concede to the Eldar quickly. As the Tau stand now, it is more difficult to manipulate them like other races. For instance, it is hard, but not impossible, to send psychic messages to a Tau leader.

You also have to remember, the Tau are still an unknown, they could already be puppets of the Eldar or even the C'Tan.

After recently reading the Necron Codex, I would firmly say no to the C'tan being puppets, and I also would to the Eldar, but of the two, there is more of a chance that that is true, but I still personally rule it out.

Thats all fair enough, we're entitled to our own views. But in my view the aspect warriors do desire to kill, once they get themselves into the combat mode. They don't desire this the entire time, just as they prepare themselves for battle and they fill themselves with the rage and blood lust of Khaine.

If you have it look into White Dwarf 237. Its obviously a really old one, but it features Gav Thorp (writter of the Eldar Codex) talking about aspect warriors in their 'darker' state of mind.

@ Lictenstein:

If someone makes a serious spelling error then fine, correct them. But we do not need anyone picking up every little grammatical error a member has made, so control yourself.


Secondly I refering to Saitha's theory on the Tau. I have no idea why I accidentaly wrote Lictenstein... :blink:


And thirdly, I would have thought after reading the Necron Codex you would have thought the C'tan were more than capable of manipulating an entire race. I mean look at the Deciever, who has infiltrated every almost level of the Imperium and creates Pariah's from their ranks. And the Dragon who controls the entire Adeptus Mechanicus and isn't even awake yet.

It is more than possible for the Deceiver to infiltrate the Tau, and it would not surprise me one bit if he already has. Though I'll admit that I doupt the Tau are being 'controlled' by a C'tan.

Heres a theory that totaly throws the intended topic of this thread out the window. Some people think the Hive Mind could be the Outsider. I doupt this very strongly as I'm sure most of you will, but its an interesting thought.

Firstly, I was tired and couldn't resist.

Secondly, it's okay to make errors (hey, I've just made a biggy, as you'll see in the next paragraph...), but be careful who you quote in teh future... (sorry, that wasn't a reprimand)

And Thirdly, you completely misunderstand that entire section, I do believe that I have completely misunderstood what Farseer Saitha has said. I initially thought he said that the Tau were the puppet masters, not the puppets, but on closer inspection, it was actually the other way around (yeah, I need to read more thoroughly). In this case however, I will change my statement and say that no, I don't think that Eldar are controlling the Tau, but it is possible that the C'tan could be, although at the moment something is telling me that isn't so.

I dont think anyone is controlling the Tau for one simple reason
Tau players would hate it and it would put people off playing an army and hence loose GW money
imagine if it came out the Eldar where still controlled by the old ones who created them! or another alien race how would eldar players react?
no one likes to feel that someone else is telling them what to do

That last point Hardrainfalling is a good one. Not really a fluffy point, but I know exactly what you mean.

I personaly don't think the Tau are being 'used' either. Maybe sections of the Tau, or very small factions, but not likely to be large amounts of them. Sure the C'tan could do it, as could the Eldar, but ultimately the Tau listen to the Ethreals. These guys are probably more Zealous than the Space Marines, and they rely on the Ethreals to lead them. Their to devouted to the Greater Good to be swayed any other way, and it would be very difficult for a Farseer or C'tan to corrupt them.

Ultimately I think the Deciever could take the form of an Ethreal, but I think he's happy enough having large bits of the Imperium wrapped around his little finger. The Nightbringer would probably just prefer to kill them all and not manipulate them, while the Dragon and Outsider are still dormant.

Yeah, I can't exactly see the Nightbringer wishing to manipulate a whole race when it could just run around killing the whole race...

There are some very salient points there, but remember that the Greater Good is suspicious. In a universe where war is the Constant, why would a race be so welcoming?

((This topic should be ended, and one called '40k Conspiracies' should be made :D ))

Agreed. I'll start a new topic for everyone to migrate to, and this topic is only for discussing the Craftworld Eldar. (Unless we get majorly sidtracked again in which case another new topic will be created.)

i would just like to add about gazkull that humans which can reproduce, eldar cannot and have not been able to since befor the fall because of slannesh. read that out of the eldar codex.

Actually, (I may have mentioned this before), but has anyone noticed how much the Tau's "Greater Good" resembles National Socialism?

oooh thats just plain nasty and I dont agree at all, humans in 40k are much closer to that killing heretics and xenos , while tau merge all into theri empire (someone likened them to the British empire)

The British Empire exterminated most of your race even if you did join them :angry:

Oh, and Eldar can reproduce, the Codex mentions how every generation, more Eldar tread the Path of the Outcast. Not every year Eldar get more and more infertile :P

you have a very skewed view of history if you believe the british empire extermianted those who wouldnt join the empire and are comparable to nazis
the do fight those who wont join but exterimation and the destruction of planets is not mentioned unlike the humans in 40k

Their are reports of dozens of incidents were hundreds of unarmed women and children were massacered by British soldiers in Southern Africa during the 19th century. They had belonged to villages declaring support to neither the British nor British enemies.

I do compare them to Nazis, for the Nazis wre not the first to practise mass genocide. That is not saying I condone Nazi acts.

If my view of history is skewed, then it is because of my bias against the British Empire.

excuse me but we are not here to talk real world history or politics. I want this side topic to come to a halt now.

Terribly sorry about letting the cat loose amoung the pigeons... I would start another post to discuss it, but I'm scared of what might happen...

wow this went completely off topic