Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned
By Jeremy Grant in Washington

Published: August 14 2007 00:06 | Last updated: August 14 2007 00:06

The US government is on a ‘burning platform’ of unsustainable policies and practices with fiscal deficits, chronic healthcare underfunding, immigration and overseas military commitments threatening a crisis if action is not taken soon, the country’s top government inspector has warned.

David Walker, comptroller general of the US, issued the unusually downbeat assessment of his country’s future in a report that lays out what he called “chilling long-term simulations”.

These include “dramatic” tax rises, slashed government services and the large-scale dumping by foreign governments of holdings of US debt.

Drawing parallels with the end of the Roman empire, Mr Walker warned there were “striking similarities” between America’s current situation and the factors that brought down Rome, including “declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government”.

“Sound familiar?” Mr Walker said. “In my view, it’s time to learn from history and take steps to ensure the American Republic is the first to stand the test of time.”

Mr Walker’s views carry weight because he is a non-partisan figure in charge of the Government Accountability Office, often described as the investigative arm of the US Congress.

While most of its studies are commissioned by legislators, about 10 per cent – such as the one containing his latest warnings – are initiated by the comptroller general himself.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Mr Walker said he had mentioned some of the issues before but now wanted to “turn up the volume”. Some of them were too sensitive for others in government to “have their name associated with”.

“I’m trying to sound an alarm and issue a wake-up call,” he said. “As comptroller general I’ve got an ability to look longer-range and take on issues that others may be hesitant, and in many cases may not be in a position, to take on.

“One of the concerns is obviously we are a great country but we face major sustainability challenges that we are not taking seriously enough,” said Mr Walker, who was appointed during the Clinton administration to the post, which carries a 15-year term.

The fiscal imbalance meant the US was “on a path toward an explosion of debt”.

“With the looming retirement of baby boomers, spiralling healthcare costs, plummeting savings rates and increasing reliance on foreign lenders, we face unprecedented fiscal risks,” said Mr Walker, a former senior executive at PwC auditing firm.

Current US policy on education, energy, the environment, immigration and Iraq also was on an “unsustainable path”.

“Our very prosperity is placing greater demands on our physical infrastructure. Billions of dollars will be needed to modernise everything from highways and airports to water and sewage systems. The recent bridge collapse in Minneapolis was a sobering wake-up call.”

Mr Walker said he would offer to brief the would-be presidential candidates next spring.

“They need to make fiscal responsibility and inter-generational equity one of their top priorities. If they do, I think we have a chance to turn this around but if they don’t, I think the risk of a serious crisis rises considerably”.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007


CURRENT TRENDS ALL POINT TO THE SAME FACTORS WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO THE FALL OF ANCIENT ROME, THE FIRST DEMOCRACY OF ANCIENT HISTORY. ALTHOUGH IT WAS LONG AGO, MAN HAS NOT CHANGED. THE BASIC POLITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WAS IN PLACE THEN IS BEING UTILIZED NOW.

THIS THREAD IS GOING TO TOUCH ON THE MANY FACTORS WHICH ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THIS TREND WHICH I CALL THE "FALL OF AN EMPIRE"

SOME PEOPLE ASK, WHY IS BUSH STILL IN THE WHITE HOUSE ? SHOCK FROM THE EVENTS OF 911 HAS SETTLED INTO A LULL OF APATHY & COMPLACENCY .




SCIENTISTS HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OUR CULTURE

PATTERNING IS DEEPLY IMBEDDED in our brains, behavior goes way back to our
grass roots, pattern of conditioning to adapt to stressors without LOOSING it in the face of TRAGEDY...

ANCIENT CIVILIZATION
Throughout the world, LARGE reptiles, such as giant crocodiles and other large animals used to wander into the hut and eat people for a midnight snack. Before these large animals were hunted to extinction, our ancestors evolved by adaptation, each culture had different ways of dealing with predation.

Obvious solution at the time was to offer up captured enemy one at a time to feed them to the monsters. Tribal reject was dinner, old and sick clan members, even virgins, women and children. Ancient ancestors created human sacrifice ritual to appease the monster god so that the rest of the clan didnt have to be the next meal.

History archives are proof enough we ALL have something in COMMON

CHRISTIANITY
Then came christianity to remind us that we can rise above sacrifice to BEASTS AND STONE GODS, that our purpose in life on this earth had more meaning than
what PAGAN PRIESTS and self-made DICTATORS were dishing out to us. Slavery and Carnage to false gods was painfully but effectively abolished.

Here in the United States, freedom FROM religion was also interpereted as freedom
OF religion, we have so many churches now, that it staggers the imagination
( thousands of churches). And yet they call us "GODLESS" PEOPLE

Our history is quite unique, since we are the only country to freely practice our religion, the constitution PROTECTS these freedoms by making one very important exception:

That we can not HARM others in the process.

Somehow, the Bush regime by virtue of POWER, once in the White House took abuse of our system to the EXTREME, controlling our MEDIA, forcing their DOGMA of fear and hate on the rest of the population, stealing the White House by sabotaging our VOTING machines

Yet mainstream Americans choose--to DO NOTHING

Behavior pattern is deeply imbedded in our brains, must explain why Bush is still in the White House. Better to offer up sacrifice ( our soldiers) think of 911 as a terrible beast from across the sea attacking our village, be glad it wasnt one of us, and eat our sandwich like good little children

SAME THING happened in Germany prior to WORLD WAR II

SAME THING happened in NEW ORLEANS,

shock gradually settled into APATHY and then COMPLACENCY

FREEDOM MOVEMENT
There are groups like ourselves, who after SEEING the attrocities, address the problem and continue fighting it. While the masses CONTINUE ON, with their daily lives, as if NOTHING EVER HAPPENED

GOES ALL THE WAY BACK its in the GENOMES controlling human behavior, patterning of human behavior by ancestry (evolution)

Just some constructive criticism.

Agreed.

I fail to understand what you mean in your first statement, I'm not sure if you mean, that we don't need thousands of different religions in the U.S. Or, that we all have the right not to be part of any religion? Correct me if I am wrong.

The people who say the United States is full of Godless people are those who try to impose their religion upon others. Mainly terrorists in the middle east. But that is just the strongest example I can come up with that has something that does with every one here. I am not picking on the middle east because I am bias or any thing like that.

When you say "That we cannot harm others in this process." What is it you mean by that? The media and others bashing certain religions, ostricizing them (I.E Muslims?)? Correct me if I am wrong please. Just trying to clarify. ;)

Regarding the "Main stream..." most people don't care, don't want to take the time to care, care about their family (Which is important. They should also equally care about their freedoms too.) their paycheck to keep them going steady financially and such. (Same as above.).

I don't believe that the government facilitated the attacks in 9/11. I would sooner believe (Going along with your crocodile analogy.) that they let them in. Took down the fence to let them in, so they could sacrifice (Go to war) with the crocodiles, so they can either get the hides (oil) from them, or, just get into a war because they like wars.

Could you elaborate on that please? Thanks.

Hope that helped. Just some constructive criticism to help ya out.

Charlie.

thanks for dropping by, charlie> welcome to the forum. dont know if psychological
issues have been raised by the forum before I came here. dont know if anyone has addressed WHY we still have bush in office, and americans resume their normal routine after mass killings

I have always had an interest in history. history is like a map of both events and
human response. combine that with what we now know about the biology of the human brain, and it all makes perfect sense

answer to religion, answer is both-constitution protects our choice either way
our enemies call us Godless because of endless aerial bombing, occupation. deaths, suffering, hardships, and resulting outrage.

since the belief system of middle east culture is different than that of christians, they will NEVER forget. we as christians tend to easily forget our own history. currently, steps are underway to dis-mantle the WAR MEMORIAL for lives lost in Pearl Harbor. no time at all was wasted to rebuild over the 911 attack by unveiling plans for business complexes NINE MONTHS after the attack.

different though we are, we have all evolved from an ancient ancestry which, at one time feared and worshipped large REPTILES and other beasts. one culture worshipped the very beasts that threatened them- the other killed the beast.

constitution says freedoms can not harm innocents, even by acts of neglegence. elected officials sworn to protect letter of the law. rescuers in both Katrina and 911 made sworn depositions that certain steps were taken to prevent rescue attempts.

although the two tragedies are not identical, govt played a major roll in outcome of lives lost. responsible leadership would have ordered evacuation at the first sign of emminent danger.feds had prior knowledge of both. new investigations are about to be ordered which will bring criminal charges against high-ranking officials all the way to the top

Why do the masses tend to focus on one leader, follow one leader, trust the word of one leader with their very lives without question ?

americans, along with the rest of the world, have been conditioned since ancient times to react a certain way in response to stressors, evolution preserves these memories in the form of genomes which evolve over time, controlling response patterns to guarantee preservation of the species.

the brain is genetically pre-programmed to respond to a crisis in a way which allows us to maintain wellness amidst crisis. once the crisis is gone, its business as usual and dangeous stress levels drop. in this new age of rapidly-changing geopolitics, the old way doesnt always work to our benefit.

early ancestors spent most of their time gathering food and had ro resume that effort to survive, soon after threat by a large animal dissappeared into the brush or water....today,we tend NOT to be afraid of THREATS because we THINK we are safe, since the perceived enemy is FAR AWAY across the SEA.

when a yuppie type goes to work for that ever-lovin' paycheck or business, he's GATHERING. although the entire country went into shock by recent deaths of thousands of innocent citizens, numbness was soon replaced with acceptance, ROUTINE across the country was quickly resumed and life went on as usual, while only the minority questioned the obvious.

the masses can not conceive that perhaps it was an INSIDE job, and readilly accept the first explanation handed to them. primal programming consistently causes us to TOTALLY TRUST the one chosen leader with our very LIVES

The Mayor of NO carries most of the blame on that. He never ordered the mandatory evacuation.

Good post btw!

:D

Yep, I myself don't believe the attack was facilitated, I do however believe that it is possible they just sat back and took the procedures to let the terrorists get away with it. When the day comes that all Americans come to the conclusion that they cannot trust their leaders, is the day this Country falls.

Agreed.


Edit: Typo

feds should have stepped in. another catastrophy could have been avoided if they had ordered both Louisiana and Mississippi to exacuate, knowing what was coming


thats why we are paying tax dollars to employ leaders at the top, and tax money to agencies responsible for the welfare of citizens facing real threat of destruction, such as homeland security and fema, to protect the public from danger.

taxpayers should disband these agencies and demand a refund, measure might whip our government structure into shape. dont think a little reform is going to mean the fall of our country. prefer to think it would mark the fall of present regime and the strengthening of our nation (not to mention LESS PORK).

I agree. I'd like to see folks posting, lol. Then we can get a discussion going! :P

Should you read ANY reference using the phrase "SCRAP' in china,
please keep in mind that the phrase is not yet a cultural slang, by definition phrase SCRAP IN CHINA simply means :

"REMAINS OF STEEL STRUCTURE" was shipped to CHINA to be melted down and made into OTHER THINGS of METAL

COULD THE STRANGE APATHY BE PHARMACOLOGICAL--NOT SOCIAL ?

AMERICANS USE OVER-THE COUNTER AMPHETAMINE BASED ALLERGY REMEDIES
WITHOUT ANY PUBLISHED INFORMATION OF ITS EFFECT ON SOCIAL BEHAVIOR
COMMON USE IS HEAVIER DURING COUGH AND COLD SEASON
PHARMACEUTICAL SUPPLIERS MAKE FAR TOO MUCH MONEY
TO ADDRESS CONCERN FOR THEIR IMPACT ON SOCIETY
ONE STUDY BRINGS TO LIGHT SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS

A STUDY OF PEOPLE USING AMPHETAMINES AND THOSE WHO ABSTAIN
USING TWO CONTROL GROUPS, SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS ARE APPARENT :

Brain Activity Patterns Signal Risk of Relapse to Methamphetamine Research Findings
Vol. 20, No. 5 (April 2006)


AMPHETAMINE USE AND ITS EFFECT ON BRAIN FUNCTION
CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF LOST BRAIN FUNCTION FROM CONTINUED USE

THE BLUE GROUP IN THE ABOVE DIAGRAM ARE USING AMPHETAMINES
THE STUDY GROUP REPRESENTED IN GREEN ARE NOT USING AMPHETAMINES

Methamphetamine abusers who relapse after treatment appear to make decisions using different brain regions than do those who remain abstinent.

By Patrick Zickler, NIDA NOTES Contributing Writer

NIDA-supported investigators have found that functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) of the brain, performed during a psychological test, can predict with high accuracy whether an individual will relapse following treatment for methamphetamine abuse. Their study revealed a characteristic pattern of brain activity in methamphetamine-abusing men who relapsed within 1 to 3 years after completing treatment and a different pattern in men who did not.

Dr. Martin Paulus and colleagues at the University of California, San Diego, took the point of departure for their work from previous research that showed methamphetamine abusers and nonabusers activating different brain areas during psychological tests of decisionmaking. These earlier studies showed that poor choices made by drug abusers correlate to distinctive patterns of activity in some areas of the brain. Dr. Paulus's team hypothesized that activity patterns in those regions might also be associated with relapse to drug abuse, which involves similarly destructive decisions.

To test their hypothesis, the researchers recruited 46 men who had voluntarily entered and completed a 28-day inpatient drug treatment program after abusing methamphetamine for periods ranging from 3 to 34 years. When each man had been abstinent for about 4 weeks, he participated in two psychological tests. During one, he was asked to watch a computer screen and press a button every time a symbol appeared. In the other, he was asked to try to predict whether a flashing symbol would next occur on the left side or right side of the computer screen. The difference between the two tasks was that, in the first, the test-taker needed only to react upon seeing the symbol, while in the second, he needed to decide which side to choose. The researchers recorded the men's brain activity with fMRI throughout the tests.

"The most striking aspect of this result is that the fMRI pattern has 90 percent accuracy in predicting outcome. The differences in brain activity are pronounced, with little overlap."

"The most striking aspect of this result is that the fMRI pattern has 90 percent accuracy in predicting outcome," Dr. Paulus says. "The differences in brain activity are pronounced, with little overlap." Differences in the right insula, right posterior cingulate, and right middle temporal gyrus differentiated relapsers from nonrelapsers. Other brain regions predicted the timing of relapse.

"Some of these predictive areas have not previously been strongly associated with drug abuse," observes Dr. Steven Grant of NIDA's Division of Clinical Neurosciences and Behavioral Research. "For example, while other investigators have reported alterations in the parietal lobe related to drug abuse, this is the first study to show the parietal cortex playing an important role."


is this drug family commonly used here in the United States a factor contributing to
'strange apathy within the masses ?"

THE U.S. MILITARY DOPES THE SOLDIERS WITH METH TO HELP MEN DISCONNECT
SO THEY CAN DEAL WITH ISSUES, SUCH AS LOOSING A FRIEND, CIVILIAN CASUALTIES

STATES BATTLE TO MONITOR SALE OF COLD REMEDIES FOR THE BLACK MARKET
SUBSTANCE USE AND ABUSE CITED BY OFFICIAL AS THIS COUNTRY'S EPIDEMIC
Attempts to pass legislation steimied during sessions controlled by Republicans
Lobbying by pharmaceuticals won out year-after-year
Preventing state lawmakers to NIP-IT-IN-THE-BUD

Following Oklahoma's Lead, States Target Cold Remedies in Fight Against Methamphetamine 1/21/05

Across the Midwest and from Montana to Mississippi, lawmakers and law enforcement are making a concerted push this year to restrict consumer access to legal over-the-counter (OTC) cold and allergy medications, such as Sudafed, which are used by tens of millions of people every year. The cold and allergy remedies are in the sights of lawmakers because they contain either ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, key precursor chemicals used in the home manufacture of methamphetamines.


Probably the most demonized drug in America today, methamphetamine is a stimulant that initially produces feelings of alertness and well-being, but when abused can cause psychological disorders, such as obsessive-compulsive behavior, paranoia and violent outbursts. (Never mind for now that speed freaks have reason to be paranoid: The cops ARE after them.) Long-term abusers of the drug can also suffer physical ailments, including cardiac arrhythmias, seizures, and convulsions, as well as possible long-term changes in brain chemistry.

But while some law enforcement officials and anti-drug "educators" portray methamphetamine as a singularly dangerous substance, it is a member of the amphetamine family of stimulants, the same drugs that were used as diet pills by housewives in the 1970s ("mother's little helpers"), as "stay awake" pills by US Air Force pilots flying long missions in the Afghan War, and, paradoxically, as medications (Ritalin, Adderal) used to tranquilize millions of American children diagnosed with hyperactivity or attention deficit disorders. In other words, it's all speed -- there is nothing intrinsically radioactive about meth. The problems that occur from meth abuse derive not from some properties of the drug alone, but from the way in which some drug users interact with it.

Such nuances are lost in the midst of the frenzy and hyperbole surrounding the drug. As usual, law enforcement officials are wont to make extreme claims about the drug's dangers that go beyond the facts. A common canard heard from cops across the land is that 90% -- or 95% or 98% -- of meth users become addicts. Similarly, police are quick to point to horrendous acts of violence committed by meth users, such as the man in New Mexico who cut off his son's head a few years ago. But as Jacob Sullum, author of "Saying Yes: In Defense of Drug Use," pointed out in that particular case, the man in question had a long history of anti-social violence predating his adventures with meth.

Be that as it may, the war on methamphetamines is raging across the land, with state after state passing harsh new laws aimed not only at cooks and dealers but users themselves. In Oklahoma, for instance, under a package of laws passed last year, simple possession of meth is now punishable by a mandatory minimum seven-year prison sentence, with no possibility of probation or a suspended sentence.

Some states are following the model of Oklahoma, which in addition to ratcheting up penalties for users, cooks, and dealers, last year also imposed tight restrictions on OTC cold and allergy remedies as part of its effort to reduce the number of meth labs, including making such products Schedule V drugs, which can only be dispensed by a pharmacist. Oklahoma law enforcement and political figures are touting the move as a great success to be emulated elsewhere, citing a 50% reduction in meth lab busts since the law went into effect last spring.

dont know if anyone has addressed WHY we still have bush in office, and americans resume their normal routine after mass killings.

No one cares, they weren't effected. "life goes on" could be their attitude.
Alot of people are caught up in busy lifes. Making a living wage, taking care of family. They don't have time to investigate or seriously consider problems.

Some people are not intelligent enough. Some people don't grasp the meaningfulness. Not because they are dumb. Either no one told them, or they do not understand the logic (knowledge) behind why something is very meaningful.

Some people are very stubborn. Present facts, they still don't want to hear. Ignornce is bliss.

Some people feel nothing can be changed. They say, hey look at the last 50 years.... nothing can be done. I can't make a difference.

Some people don't have the will or galls (gulls?).

Some people are selfish, Like the first thing i said no one cares. Greed.

Some people are afraid for their lives, and their family.

Some don't want to get involved, its too big, stressful, headaches.... ect...

Some people are brought up in a way to tolerate.

Some don't question the government.

We have a system that was the best put together ever. Nothing we can't improve upon. And nothing that absolutly guards us.

Bush is in office because many people like i've mentioned above. Many people make money off what hes doing. He pass's laws that are in favor of certain people.
With all the willingness to comply they may dislike him and surveys show, but they don't care enough to impeach him.
It is easier to tolerate evils when they are endured longer. So slowly government retains more power over us. When we are afraid, there is tyranny, when government is afraid there is liberty.
It is our duty to always question government. It is duty of our representitves to preserve our rights and freedoms. When they are broken and or we are lied to, persons need to be impeached. But slowly over the years its become less of an issue. When our suspicion is down about government is when we are most in danger.
Congress knows the peice of dump Bush is because of Iraq war and the people know too. Not enough people are presuring for an impeachment.

Why doesn't congress know? Greed, ignorance, complince, lied too, youth, inexperince. Sides protect each other, Republicans and Democrats alike. If the majority of our population were smart we wouldn't have to many deep problems like we have.
Education sucks, we give more money to smarter schools, than ones with less smarts. Parents don't teach their children. We fear the police. We do more injustice to ones who break laws. We deny them the right to vote but force them to pay taxes when they are out of jail.

Only a small minority of people are smart enough to know and understand politics and situations. This is also the reason why the public was allowed a popular vote, but was not actually the determining vote.

Apathy? That is the way our contry has been swaying.

History repeats its self. No one knows important knowledge where they could make meaningful judgements. We rely on trust of people(government) who arn't truly for the people anymore. What prevents them from deciving us? Constant scrutiny and questions. If we are ignored something is going on.....

Only when people are all effected will they open their eyes and behold truth. Denial denial denial... then bam, it happends. Oppression and tyranny.



Religions are free to do as desired as long as it doesn't disobey the law.


Why do we trust one leader? Ignorance, we don't know any better. We dont question, we now consider questioning unpatriotic. Atleast Bush claims.


You say we are programed to maintain wellness in a crisis. True, we are programed to do what ever is nessicary to protect ourselves. Which is why compliance in a crisis to give up our freedoms is easier. One who gives up freedom for security deserves neither security nor freedom.

Masses can not concieve that perhaps 911 was an inside job. Partially because, they have been cultured in just beliving news and government. Never to question. Media doesn't relay all messages, they have an agenda and revenue to make. People are cultured, smart people take advantage of this for their greed and selfishness.


We do need to shape our government up. I hope to one day be in office of some sort and start actually being there for the people. Try to accept no pay, because I want to show my dedication. I want to improve communications with government officials. Improve debate about topics with constituents. Make many topics public so people can be informed and knowledged as they might not otherwise be. Teach them how things work and history.


About pharmasouticles (spelling?).

Drug industry makes loads of money. They are intrested in making more. So,
A.) create a relife of symptoms drug but no cure so they could always expect a pay check from someone dieing.
B.) Give more problems from taking the drug, to get a bigger paycheck.

Sugar is the most hated food in america, yet the most popular and put in praticaly everything.
Diabetes is leading disease, and becoming more of an epidimic, hard to hear about, no cure, no information or concern.

Hydrogen peroxide is something your body naturally makes inside of you, usually most viruses are killed this way. When they are not we are infected and after our cells become attacked white blood cells develope to rid the virus. No one tells you that this hydrogen peroxide, or ozone therapy could help kill HIV. How did magic johnson get rid of it, or the latest person (golfer or singer?) i forget their name.

Drugs do effect us, they arnt natural. Look whats in tap water deadly chemicals. Look at the preservatives we eat. We actually take longer to decay now.

Problem is no one knows the problems. If someone does, its an uphill battle, because people are in denial and say that your belief just because its contrary to the "norm" is crazy or conspiracy. Closed mindedness or narrow mindedness.
Open your eyes and start caring!
Its hard to make someone care. They have to find it in themselves, only talking to them can probably make them find it sooner.
Hey, your dead, the government killed you. Soon the rest of your family will be slaves and opressed. Good job selfish bastard! Next time stand up and do something before its too late. Mr. I care but I'm still going to let them do it. If your not part of the solution your part of the problem. Get out of the free country i'm trying to defend.
I talk to alot of people to try spreading news around my area about 911 and other things. They have no care, if the care is there they have no desire or will to make a change. Alot of it I see is they dont care, or they don't understand the importance, or they don't question enough, or they are to busy.

excellent post by ihatecreditors>

for future reference CO2 (carbonated drinks) and hydrogen peroxide consumed by the body is poison, attacks the body. also sodium benzoate in concentrated
doses (in carbonated sodas) is now linked to attacking the immune system. got it from a PHD in rhumatology

still think there may be more here than human behavior.something that is right in front of us and we cant put a finger on it. amphetamine cold remedies,and cold remedies using amphetamine-like base are a common denominator, studies on altered behavior using this substance points to a disturbance in normal thought processes. a DISCONNECT

Anything can be poisones. Drink chlorine, you'll die. But because you don't drink enough at once through tap water you dont die. Hydrogen Peroxide can be posiones. I read that patients intaking small amounts of Hydrogen Peroxide feel better.

This is a topic to be examined :)

will call poison control on peroxide idea. get back with you on that.

HUMAN BEHAVIOR-vs-THE SYSTEM
LEADING EXPERT EXPLAINS HOW TO STOP THE WAR

Zimbardo Unbound
Long after his notorious prison experiment and soon after the Abu Ghraib scandal, the famous psychologist lobbies for a greater understanding of how evil systems subvert good people.
INTERVIEW BY Marina Krakovsky

PHOTOGRAPHY BY Glenn Matsumura

No matter what Philip Zimbardo does—publish research on shyness, time perspective or madness; teach wildly popular undergraduate courses; co-author the bestselling textbook Psychology and Life; star in the PBS series Discovering Psychology; or serve as president of the American Psychological Association—everybody remembers him for the famous (and infamous) 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment :

STANFORD 1971

The mock prison he’d set up in the basement of Jordan Hall quickly turned ordinary college students into abusive guards and degraded prisoners, some of whom broke down under the pretend prison’s all-too-real strain.

When, decades later, Zimbardo first glimpsed televised images of the inmate abuse at Abu Ghraib, he was shocked by similarities to what he’d seen in his own study.

Before long, Zimbardo, 74, was not only giving media interviews, but serving as an expert witness in defense of Ivan “Chip” Frederick, a staff sergeant who was the highest-ranking officer court-martialed for the crimes at the Iraqi prison. This role gave Zimbardo access to documents detailing horrendous conditions at the prison—and the evidence he needed to dispute official claims that the sadistic treatment of Iraqi detainees was an isolated incident and the work of a few rogue soldiers.

In a new book, The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil (Random House), Zimbardo makes the case that “bad apples” aren’t to blame for evils at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere: he argues that extreme situations and the systems that create them—“bad barrels”—lead ordinary people to behave in horrid ways.

On March 7, roughly coinciding with his golden teaching anniversary and the publication of the book, the psychology professor gave a farewell Stanford lecture. In the packed auditorium, the veteran showman’s presentation combined psychological research with real-world politics, leavened a heavy message with personal history and popular culture, and elicited both despair and optimism about human nature. The centerpiece: a series of snapshots from Abu Ghraib.

It’s easy to loathe the soldiers gloating over their atrocities—Zimbardo calls the photos “trophy shots,” likening them to fishermen’s poses with their big catch. But when Zimbardo describes the hellish, decrepit prison—in which the guards lived in conditions little better than those for the inmates—the soldiers’ actions gain new context. Under frequent attack by mortar fire, enveloped in desert heat and urine stench, the guards worked 12-hour shifts for weeks without respite, with insistent but vague orders to “soften up” for interrogation their prisoners of war.


You felt sympathetic toward Chip Frederick after getting to know him, but do you feel as much for the other abusers?

I haven’t studied any of the others in sufficient detail, but they were all pawns of chess masters who orchestrated their game remotely and with no understanding or concern for the humanity of these soldiers or the dignity of their prisoners.

The supposed worst of the other MPs was corporal Charles Graner. In the middle of the abuses he got accolades from his lieutenant colonel for the work he was doing in preparing the detainees for interrogation. I am sympathetic that he then was sent away for 10 years after doing this acclaimed duty.

You write in your book, “There are no special inner attributes of either pathology or goodness residing within the human psyche or the human genome.” Isn’t this an empirical question—something for behavioral geneticists to answer?

Behavioral genetics cannot deal with highly complex behaviors, and certainly not generic ones like good and evil. There is no data of genes that predispose toward good or evil, and any such data would be so weak as to apply [only] to a minority of cases. If your mother and father were both schizophrenic, the probability you will be is only 50 percent.

You contend that abuses, those at Abu Ghraib and those in your prison study, started with good people—people who had passed psychological evaluations. But can we know that they were good? Maybe the psychological tests aren’t getting at something important.

They’re not. All that personality tests can do is predict how you’ll behave in situations that you’re familiar with. They can’t predict how you’d act in a totally new situation. But the tests do tell us that at the time these people completed them, they fit in the normal range of all people taking the tests. So when we put these good guards in a bad place, the place changed their personality in ways they couldn’t imagine.


You make the classic distinction in social psychology between the person and the situation, but you also bring the system into it. What made you think about that third piece?

I was unaware even with the Stanford prison study about the power of the system because I was the system. It wasn’t until I was preparing for Chip Frederick’s trial by reading these investigative reports that I said, “Oh, my God, what’s really important isn’t how terrible the situation was in Tier 1A, but how is it possible that any military system allowed this terrible environment to exist?” So I began to say the most important thing is the cruel and inhuman system, because the system is where the power is.

I should have thought of it earlier: my major was sociology and anthropology before I turned to psychology.


Some people say situations are easier to change than people. If you accept the “broken-windows theory,” which your own early research supports, then fixing urban decay seems doable: you repair broken windows, you paint over graffiti—and street crime sharply declines. Prompt, detailed ounces of prevention provide big cures. But when you start talking about a system that creates bad situations, you’ve got a huge problem. Because aren’t systems really difficult to change?

Systems are really difficult to change, but you can’t even conceptualize what a change would look like until you realize the system is where the power is—and you begin to investigate where there’s leverage.

One glowing example is with South African apartheid. This was going on for 100 years, and how did Nelson Mandela and his colleagues change that from the prison? It took them 25 years, yet they did it. It started by changing the guards’ perception of them, sending out messages to the community about acting with dignity, and then getting other countries involved, with American colleges saying, “We’re not going to invest in South Africa.”

The same thing with the war on terrorism: the only really effective thing they’ve done is freeze the assets of groups that support terrorism.

You suggest looking at the highest levels of power, the “barrel makers” who create systems and situations. But aren’t those people subject to system forces, too?

Yes, the person at the highest level is in the context of getting elected. Today you have lobbyists from Israel saying, “Why is [Nancy] Pelosi talking about ending the war? We’re going to be more vulnerable.” And they’re threatening to cut off financial support. At that point the politician has to say, “I have to get money from somewhere else, and if I don’t get enough I can’t get re-elected, in which case I can’t work on other issues.”

The ultimate power is the power to frame the issues, to say, “This is a war against terrorism.” Is there anybody who’s against national security? But then you fall into Erich Fromm’s Escape From Freedom analysis, which is that the only way authorities can reasonably talk about guaranteeing your security is if you surrender your freedoms. But when you give up your freedom, that’s always real, whereas security is an illusion.

In the book you repeatedly say that you’re not practicing “excusiology” for the abusers, that understanding the why of what was done does not excuse what was done. Can you have it both ways—blaming the situation and the system while still holding individuals accountable? Is the solution simply a lighter penalty because of mitigating circumstances?

Legally, individuals are always accountable for their actions and found guilty if they break laws, civil or military. And situational forces should be invoked to mitigate the extent of the sentence of guilt. Currently there’s insufficient appreciation or discounting of how powerful they can be, and the extent to which they can play a major role in causing the illegal, immoral behavior.

We have to more fully appreciate the extent to which human behavior can come under the control of a host of situational forces in certain behavioral settings. As those forces become more extreme and intense, a greater percentage of ordinary, even good, people will be swayed, seduced, initiated into doing things that are unimaginable to them when they are outside the constraints of that situation. Not everyone is susceptible to those forces, only the majority of people, but that is a big number.

How does heroism, which you’ve begun studying, fit into this situationist’s model? How do you account for that one person out of 100 who does the right thing?

At this point we don’t know. But situations can be subtle. A professor gave a talk here a few years ago. He’s going on and on, and finally somebody asks a question that he can’t answer, and he says, “I’m really feeling sick and I’ll get to that in a minute.” I think, is he saying he’s sick of this kind of question? Suddenly he’s speaking much slower. . . . I move closer and closer until I’m right in front of him . . . and I notice his pants are now wet, so I say something like, “Maybe you should end.” And at that point he falls on me, and had I not been there, he’d have smashed into that chair. We called the paramedics, and it turned out he had the flu. So in a way it’s a heroic act because if I do nothing, nobody knows but me, but on the other hand, suppose I made a mistake?

You’re weighing the costs of taking action . . .

Essentially, it’s shame and guilt: you have to live with the guilt of not doing what you should have done vs. the shame of doing the wrong thing. All my life I’ve done things to make people laugh at me, and playing the fool means when the time comes I don’t care if people laugh. Also, there’s the situational thing: it’s only because I was sitting in the front row that I knew what was happening and stepped in.

So we don’t really know that everybody is in the same situation just because they’re in the same room.

Exactly. It’s the same with the prison study: some guards were on a shift where they didn’t see most of the bad stuff, because they were out getting the breakfast or lunch for the prisoners, and most of the bad stuff occurred on the night shift.

Why, throughout the book, do you use the word “evil,” which is such a loaded word? Why not just talk about aggression, since that’s a straightforward psychological term?

I’ve done lots of work on aggression, but aggression for psychologists has always been one-on-one. Once you have torture, where it’s a systematic program to instill fear in a community, to use specialized tactics to get information to break people’s will, that’s not aggression. That’s not even violence.

For me, evil is the highest level of inhumanity. It could be one-on-one, like the torturer and his victim, but more often than not at that level it’s the individual as an agent of a system.

One of the things I try to get across is, it’s really noble ideologies that allow the worst possible destructions, because you could always say, “I did it for God.” Throughout the world, evil occurs almost always in the name of religion or of national security. In the beginning of Mein Kampf, Hitler says, “In dealing with the Jewish question, I’m doing the Lord’s work.” No evildoer ever believes he or she is doing evil.

That gets to Hannah Arendt’s idea of “the banality of evil,” but you take it in a new direction.

Before Eichmann went to Auschwitz, he’s normal. The psychiatrist evaluating him says, “He’s more normal than I am.” So with the banality of evil, Hannah Arendt is saying that the evildoer looks just like us. But what she should have added is, that it’s only when the evildoer is in a special situation that he’s transformed. It’s only when he has the ideology, when his mission is to efficiently destroy as many of these people as possible . . . Eichmann’s job was to get 100 people to kill 2 million, and he did that really well.

So there are people like Eichmann who are situationally evil. Just like there are people who are only shy on blind dates—and when you ask them, “Are you shy?” they’ll say no.

The same is true of heroism—there are people whose whole lives are organized around service to others. Those are the rare exceptions among heroes in the same way the chronically evil people are rare. They stand out in our minds because they’re rare. So here are the chronically evil and the chronically heroic, situationally evil and situationally heroic—the everyday heroes, who in a particular situation, with no prior history of doing it, move from passivity to action.

The following interview questions and answers did not appear in the print edition of STANFORD.

You outlined some strategies for resisting situational forces, and I’d like to hear you connect them to Abu Ghraib. What could Chip Frederick have done that he hadn’t already done?

That’s a really good question. At this point, I’m not sure what he could have done. He complained to senior officers that there were no rules of engagement, a lot of improper policies, patients with mental illness mixed in with other prisoners, and so on; and they just told him, it’s wartime and you have to deal with it. To be frank, Army reservists are the lowest form of life in the military, and he’s an Army reservist in a dungeon, in a horrible prison, in a horrible war, and he’s in a position of little power to change anything.

TO STOP A WAR

Usually you have to go to the next higher level. After the My Lai massacre, Ron Ridenhour [a young enlisted man who heard about the incident] insists on an investigation; he goes to the military officers, and they disregard him. So he goes to the next level: he writes his congressman, and nothing happens. It was only after he got [investigative journalist] Seymour Hersh involved, who was outside the system, that anything happened. While Ridenhour was in Vietnam, he couldn’t do anything. So the bottom line is sometimes when you’re trapped in a situation and you have little personal power it’s very difficult to change it.

Intresting post on the Jail situation....

The idea is to scare people from breaking a law or hurting other people. Display the laws, and warn of punishment.
If they still break a law they go to jail for a long time. Become lonely, more aggresive because being locked up.

years ago people killed people in jail, it was chaotic. But the jail guards learned if they give books TV and games they settle down.

5 of my 5 brothers have been in jail. One is still in jail for another 20 years for murder.

When he got out of jail before from a felony, he couldn't get a job anywhere... it was hard.

Why did he go to jail the first place? My parents were f'ed up.... So he didn't care cause they didn't. He stopped going to school after 5th grade. What else is there to get into in the city of st. louis? He stole things hurt people broke into houses. Thats all he knew... no education.
He gets out of jail, no one wants to hire him hes a convicted felon... hard to find a job... finally does gets laid off... can't find another job.... he goes back to doing what he knows best crime. Worse and worse.... then killed someone because they were being a dick. (still no ligitmet reason to kill). Nothing stoped that cycle in jail. Only inhibited further his ability to try for himself by labeling him a felon.

Maybe some mind you SOME, of the focus should be on helping the people who commit crimes. Not punishing them or be cruel. Shall they be to arrogant to not grow then harsh imprisonment could be called for. But only for the super hard heads and severe crimes.

Most of the focus should be on education. Helping families who are struggling and in the position my family was in. Dad working one 8$/hr job 80 hours a week feeding 8 people. (My dad married my mom who had 5 kids from her previous husband that just "disapeard" and is labeled a missing person. My mother pretty much was forced to have 5 by being rapped then he had 2 more, me and my sister.)

guess you missed the point, study at the university was ABOUT human behavior under extreme controlled conditions, PHD said he blames the SYSTEM, not human behavior. the system if evil, has same effect on ordinary people who would not have displayed such behavior under ORDINARY circumstances--

conditions in military prison had a profound effect on soldiers sent there, they were ill-equipped do deal with what would happen to their own behavior under such controls. system was Rumsfeld's policy, system linked to the white house

suggests :

A SYSTEM THAT IS EVIL imposed on us by the WARMONGERS has changed our behaviors. the constant bombardment of negative programming is designed to subvert a democratic culture.

CHANGE THE SYSTEM, AND PEOPLE CHANGE

BOTH religions, AND cultures BECOME EVIL when SOMETHING EVIL

IS IN CONTROL of them. take that evil control away and things

quickly return to normal.

in both religion and politics-- those who are entrusted to lead, inspire, serve and protect can abuse their powers, bringing chaos and destruction in their wake

I got the point. I think :P i just decided to rant a little about jail.

" THE SYSTEM " STOLE TWO ELECTIONS, PLACING THIS LOOSER IN CHARGE
OF OUR COUNTRY, THE FOLLOWING IS HIS PATHIC EXCUSE FOR A RESUME

Main articles: Early life of George W. Bush and Professional life of George W. Bush

Lt. George W. Bush while in the National Guard.Born in New Haven, Connecticut, Bush was the first child of George H. W. Bush and Barbara Bush. Bush was raised in Midland and Houston, Texas, with his four siblings, Jeb, Neil, Marvin, and Dorothy.

Bush is sometimes referred to informally as George Bush Jr. in order to distinguish him from his father. However, because the son's full name is not exactly the same as his father's (the younger is George Walker Bush as opposed to the elder George Herbert Walker Bush), the "Jr." is incorrect.

Bush attended Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts where he played baseball, but "mostly made his mark as a cheerleader for the teams".[8] Following in his father's footsteps, Bush attended Yale University, where he received a Bachelor of Arts degree in history in 1968. As a college senior, Bush became a member of the secretive Skull and Bones society. By his own characterization, Bush was an average student.[9]

In May 1968, at the height of the ongoing Vietnam War, Bush was accepted into the Texas Air National Guard. After training, he was assigned to duty in Houston, flying Convair F-102s out of Ellington Air Force Base.[10] Critics have alleged that Bush was favorably treated during his time of service due to his father's political standing, and that he was irregular in attendance. Bush took a transfer to the Alabama Air National Guard in 1972 to work on a Republican senate campaign, and in 1974 he obtained permission to end his six-year service obligation six months early to attend Harvard Business School.[11]

There are a number of accounts of substance abuse and otherwise disorderly conduct by Bush from this time. Bush has admitted to drinking "too much" in those years and described this period of his life as his "nomadic" period of "irresponsible youth".[12] On September 4, 1976, at the age of 30, Bush was arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol near his family's summer home in Kennebunkport, Maine. He pleaded guilty, was fined $150, and had his driver's license suspended until 1978 in Maine.[13][14]

After obtaining an MBA from Harvard University,[15] Bush entered the oil industry in Texas. In 1977, he was introduced by friends to Laura Welch, a schoolteacher and librarian. They married and settled in Midland, Texas. Bush left his family's Episcopal Church to join his wife's United Methodist Church.[16]

In 1978, Bush ran for the U.S. House of Representatives from the 19th Congressional District of Texas. His opponent Kent Hance portrayed Bush as being out of touch with rural Texans; Bush lost by 6,000 votes.[17] Bush returned to the oil industry, becoming a senior partner or chief executive officer of several ventures, such as Arbusto Energy,[18] Spectrum 7, and, later, Harken Energy.[19] These ventures suffered from the general decline of oil prices in the 1980s that had affected the industry and the regional economy. Additionally, questions of possible insider trading involving Harken have arisen, though the SEC's investigation of Bush concluded that he did not have enough insider information before his stock sale to warrant a case.[20]

Bush moved with his family to Washington, D.C. in 1988, to work on his father's campaign for the U.S. presidency.[21]

Returning to Texas, Bush purchased a share in the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in April 1989, where he served as managing general partner for five years.[22] Bush presided over the trading away of Sammy Sosa, who would go on to be a popular and prodigious home run hitter for the Chicago Cubs.[23] Bush actively led the team's projects and regularly attended its games, often choosing to sit in the open stands with fans.[24] The sale of Bush's share in the Rangers brought him over $15 million from his initial $800,000 investment.[25]

Bush is often referred to by the nickname "Dubya", playing on his Southern pronunciation of the letter W, his middle initial, and distinguishing him from his father George Bush. Upon his election to the Presidency, commentators often refer to him as "Bush 43" (the 43rd President of the United States) and his father as "Bush 41"

WHY BUSH IS SOMETIMES REFERED TO AS "LITTLE HITLER"
ARROGANT FIGUREHEAD OF A MASSIVE MOVEMENT

Adolf Hitler (listen (help·info); April 20, 1889 – April 30, 1945) was the German Chancellor (Reichskanzler) from 1933 until his death, and, from 1934 until his death, he was the Führer ("Leader") of Germany. Unofficially he was known as the "German dictator" during most of the same period that he was Chancellor and Leader of Germany. Hitler was also the leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), the Nazi Party.

Hitler gained power during Germany's period of crisis following World War I. Using propaganda and charismatic oratory, he appealed to the economic needs of the lower and middle classes, while sounding resonant chords of nationalism, antisemitism, and anti-communism. With the establishment of a restructured economy, a rearmed military, and a totalitarian regime, Hitler pursued an aggressive foreign policy with the intention of expanding German Lebensraum ("living space"). This triggered World War II when Germany annexed Austria and the Czech lands and invaded Poland, much of which was also annexed to form the Großdeutschland Reich ("Greater German Reich").

Although Nazi Germany and the Axis Powers occupied most of Europe at their zenith, they were eventually defeated by the Allies. By the end of the war, Hitler's racial policies had culminated in the killing of approximately 11 million people, including the genocide of some six million Jews, in what is now known as the Holocaust. As a result of the war, more than 45 million people died across Europe.

BUSH REGIME HAS LED TO DECLINE OF "AMERICAN ERA"

Date: Friday, May 18, 2007 Posted by Frank James at 11:18 am CDT

The National Journal has a thought-provoking piece today on the question of whether the U.S. has fallen from the global pedestal with the "American era" in world history coming to an end due in part to U.S. missteps.

It turned to well-known experts for an answer. The consensus? Maybe.

According to James Kitfield, the article's writer:

"… A surprising number of respected strategic thinkers and foreign-policy elites, from both ends of the political spectrum, already detect a fundamental and potentially lasting realignment of power on the strategic chessboard. Even if an American era that decisively shaped world affairs for the past half-century has not been eclipsed, they warn that it certainly shows signs of waning."
"For a number of reasons, I believe we are entering an era where U.S. power and relative influence, in the Middle East especially, is reduced and the influence of others who have anything but a pro-American outlook is increasing, and that trend is likely to continue for decades to come," said Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations. "I predict this realignment will be enduring."

FALWELLS DEATH HAS MARKED THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF AN ERA. WILL WE BE ABLE TO RECOVER ? THIS THREAD WILL TOUCH ON MANY ISSUES WHICH ADDRESS WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE CURRENT DECLINE OF OUR DEMOCRACY, AND COMPARE IT TO THE FACTORS LEADING TO THE FALL OF ANCIENT ROME:

AS REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED MEDIA ATTEMPT TO PLAY OUT FALWELLS DEATH AS AS THE LOSS OF A GREAT LEADER, OTHER AMERICANS EXPRESS RELIEF OVER WHAT IS HOPED TO BE THE END OF AN ERA WHICH IS SAID TO SMACK OF ORGANIZED FASCISM AND THREATEN TO DESTROY ALL WE HAVE DIED FOR :

DEATH OF A DEMOCRACY--THE UNHOLY MARRIAGE OF CHURCH AND STATE
UNLAWFUL CONTROL OF CHRISTIAN RADICALISM WHICH HAS INFILTRATED OUR GOVERNMENT LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES, THE VERY HEART OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

MANY OTHER FACTORS HAVE PLAYED A CRITICAL PART IN BRINGING US TO THE POINT WHERE WE ARE NOW. MANY WILL ARGUE THAT DEMOCRACY IS ALREADY DEAD. CAN WE RECOVER ? REVIEW THE FACTORS IN PLAY BEFORE DECIDING.

Author Chris Hedges, Kathleen Kennedy (eldest child of Pres. John F. Kennedy) and many others have expressed grave concern, by publishing a book and holding interviews about a trend in the corrupt marriage of both church and state.

In their opinion, this unconstitutional practice has ripped at the very core of our democracy. Book stores are flooding with Americans-of-faith perspectives on the serious implications facing our country today; the death of our democracy:

The f-word (FASCISM) crops up in the most respectable quarters these days. Yet
if the provocative title of this exposé by Hedges (War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning)—sounds an alarm, the former New York Times foreign correspondent takes care to employ his terms precisely and decisively. As a Harvard Divinity School graduate, his investigation of the Christian Right agenda is even more alarming given its lucidity. Citing the psychology and sociology of fascism and cults, including the work of German historian Fritz Stern, Hedges draws striking parallels between 20th-century totalitarian movements and the highly organized, well-funded "dominionist movement," an influential theocratic sect within the country's huge evangelical population.

Rooted in a radical Calvinism, and wrapping its apocalyptic, vehemently militant, sexist and homophobic vision in patriotic and religious rhetoric, dominionism seeks absolute power in a Christian state. Hedges's reportage profiles both former members and true believers, evoking the particular characteristics of this American variant of fascism. His argument against what he sees as a democratic society's suicidal tolerance for intolerant movements has its own paradoxes. But this urgent book forcefully illuminates what many across the political spectrum will recognize as a serious and growing threat to the very concept and practice of an open society.

Twenty-five years ago, when Pat Robertson and other radio and televangelists first spoke of the United States becoming a Christian nation that would build a global Christian empire, it was hard to take such hyperbolic rhetoric seriously. Today, such language no longer sounds like hyperbole but poses, instead, a very real threat to our freedom and our way of life. In American Fascists, Chris Hedges, veteran journalist and author of the National Book Award finalist War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning, challenges the Christian Right's religious legitimacy and argues that at its core it is a mass movement fueled by unbridled nationalism and a hatred for the open society.

Hedges, who grew up in rural parishes in upstate New York where his father was a Presbyterian pastor, attacks the movement as someone steeped in the Bible and Christian tradition. He points to the hundreds of senators and members of Congress who have earned between 80 and 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential Christian Right advocacy groups as one of many signs that the movement is burrowing deep inside the American government to subvert it. The movement's call to dismantle the wall between church and state and the intolerance it preaches against all who do not conform to its warped vision of a Christian America are pumped into tens of millions of American homes through Christian television and radio stations, as well as reinforced through the curriculum in Christian schools. The movement's yearning for apocalyptic violence and its assault on dispassionate, intellectual inquiry are laying the foundation for a new, frightening America.

American Fascists, which includes interviews and coverage of events such as pro-life rallies and weeklong classes on conversion techniques, examines the movement's origins, its driving motivations and its dark ideological underpinnings. Hedges argues that the movement currently resembles the young fascist movements in Italy and Germany in the 1920s and '30s, movements that often masked the full extent of their drive for totalitarianism and were willing to make concessions until they achieved unrivaled power. The Christian Right, like these early fascist movements, does not openly call for dictatorship, nor does it use

physical violence to suppress opposition. In short, the movement is not yet revolutionary. But the ideological architecture of a Christian fascism is being cemented in place. The movement has roused its followers to a fever pitch of despair and fury. All it will take, Hedges writes, is one more national crisis on the order of September 11 for the Christian Right to make a concerted drive to destroy American democracy. The movement awaits a crisis. At that moment they will reveal themselves for what they truly are -- the American heirs to fascism. Hedges issues a potent, impassioned warning. We face an imminent threat. His book reminds us of the dangers liberal, democratic societies face when they tolerate the intolerant.

Hedges does a great job of exposing how the Christian Right serves fascism - fascism defined as the marriage of corporate power and the government, along with beligerent nationalism and the utilization of state violence. There's no better example of that marriage than our massive military industrial complex and the growing prison industrial complex. It can be difficult to get normal, healthy human beings to support invasions, overthrows, economic injustice and global class war; but when people like Pat Robertson and James Dobson are there to put a smiley, pious face on it, then "good" Americans will rally behind the cause of Christo-fascism.

Hedges isn't the only one sounding this warning, Michael Weinstein's "With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in the US Military" touches on the same themes. While Weinstein has first-hand experience as a member of the US Air Force, Hedges' experience comes from living in the countries that have suffered the violence of our so-called Christian nation. He has been to Guatemala, El Salvador, the Occupied Territories, Iraq and many other parts of the world where our investment in war and our training of proxy armies has killed thousands upon thousands of people. Pat Robertson has been particularly supportive of dictators that the US likes, such as Charles Taylor in Liberia, and Rios Montt in Guatemala. Robertson was also in Nicaragua to support the terrorist Contra army that the US created.

Not surprisingly, the high priests of Christo-fascism, people like Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Prager and others spend countless hours on this nation's airwaves to rally the troops. Oftentimes accusing our victims of the sort of terror and plans for world domination that our masters of war have been implementing for generations.

That's one aspect of this pseudo-Christian movement Hedges should've spent more time on, the role of right-wing talk radio to misinform an intellectually vulnerable segment of the US population. Then again, there are those who simply want to be deceived, since they are the ones who have been pulling the triggers on the Apache attack helicopters and the .50 caliber machine guns.

As Upton Sinclair said, "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." It's here. For some hopeful suggestions as to what to do about it, I read journals like Sojourners, Utne Reader and Yes! magazine, and support progressive media efforts like "Democracy Now!" and "Head on Radio" with Bob Kincaid.

Chris Hedges important, thoughtful and nuanced reportage of authoritarian tendencies within the complex mass movement and social phenomenon which is the "Christian Right" is essential reading. Yes, the "f word" (fascism) is probably too easily bandied about in what is still such a diverse and decentralized society as America but the worrying trends are there. I don't quite agree with his prescriptions as much as with his cogent analysis of the issue but still this is very much worth reading and pondering as to where we are heading.

Over twenty years ago Pat Robertson and other radio and TV evangelists first spoke of the U.S. becoming a Christian nation set to build a global Christian empire: today it's more a reality than idle idea, and one journalist Chris Hedges examines closely in AMERICAN FASCISTS: THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT AND THE WAR ON AMERICA. His book challenges the Christian Right's religious legitimacy and intentions and argues it's a movement fueled by hared for openness. Interviews and coverage of Christian right events documents its darker side and argues that it's a dangerous game indeed. A 'must' for any spiritual or public library collection.

Maybe hard for some to face the facts but America is definitely being guided by the Christian fascists on the one hand and the anything goes secularists on the other. This book focuses on the former group who want to shape Americans in their image. Hedges discusses their methodology and the threat they pose to a free American way of life.

For about 35 years I have lived a few miles from the galactic epicenter of one of the extremist religious (sic) groups Chris writes about. And for about 35 years I have despaired, seeing myself as a voice in the desert screaming the very things written in this book. I find it gratifying to finally see the rest of the country begin to awaken to the danger presented by what is no more than a Fifth Column of extremists, bent on the seizure of our governmental systems, our social systems, and our very lives. I have seen first hand the things described by Hedges in this book -- there's no fiction here at all, nor creative journalism. Read this book. And it should scare you.

SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR INTERVIEWS WITH CHRIS WALLACE DISCUSSES
CONCERN OF THREATS TO THE JUDICIARY BY THE RADICAL RIGHT

airing today on fox news sunday
an exclusive interview with former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor
justice O'Conner discusses DANGEROUS behavior of EXTREME RIGHT legislators toward the judiciary, at the state and federal levels, which are unconstitutional. she reveals her plan to create a website to teach our children how our democracy works, a vital curriculum which has since been removed by extreme right in our schools today

Psychologist Thinks Political Preference Is Half Genetic
Thursday, May 24, 2007

By Melinda Wenner

E-MAIL STORY PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION
Whether you prefer Rush Limbaugh or Keith Olbermann has to do with your genes and your psychology, according to a new study.

People who are more conscientious and prefer order, structure and closure in their lives tend to be more conservative, whereas creative people who are open to new experiences tend to be more politically liberal, says John Jost, a psychologist at New York University who conducted an overview of previous studies involving a total of more than 22,000 participants from 12 countries.

But that psychological profile only pulls half the weight when it comes to determining people's politics, his review showed.


The other half is genetic, as is revealed in studies of twins and their political bent, Jost says.

Politics in America

A number of sociologists have argued that political ideology died in America after World War II, because both the left and the right wings were heavily discredited at the time.

Study Correlates Finger Length to Performance on SAT Study: Your Personality Can Change (and Probably Should) Study Finds Certain Names 'Fit' Certain Faces Americans, Japanese Read Faces -- and Emoticons -- Differently Study: Ceiling Heights Affect How People Think Jost says the latest research shows the opposite— that politics in America today are very much alive.

His previous research has suggested, for example, that more than 90 percent of college students can identify where their political beliefs fit on a scale running from the "left" (liberal) to the "right" (conservative), and that their affiliations strongly influence how they vote in elections.

Americans also appear to enjoy being involved in politics.

For instance, 44 percent of respondents to the 2004 National Election Study reported that they regularly listen to political talk radio.

Recipe for beliefs

Given our current political appetite, Jost next wanted to know whether liberals have different psychological traits than conservatives.

His "meta-analysis" of previous studies, including his own, showed that liberals seem to be drawn to chaos and novelty — for instance, they tend to support social change — whereas conservatives prefer reassurance and structure, and thus like to maintain the status quo.

Jost's findings, detailed in American Psychologist, suggest that environmental factors, or the types of situations people encounter in their lives, determine approximately half of their political preferences.

For example, when people fear death or terrorism, or are in a state of uncertainty, they tend to become more conservative, he said.

A study of World Trade Center survivors after 9/11 reported that 38 percent grew more conservative in the 18 months following the attacks, as compared with only 13 percent who became more liberal.

The other factor that determines a person's political beliefs is biology.

Research by John Hibbing, a University of Nebraska political scientist, showed that identical twins share more political beliefs than fraternal twins. They also, of course, share more genes.

"Forty, perhaps 50 percent of our political beliefs seem to have a basis in genetics," said Hibbing, whose studies were included in Jost's analysis.

While genetics are unlikely to "hardwire" people into being liberal or conservative, Hibbing said that genes could make people more or less likely to have certain values or react to situations in a particular way.

This knowledge could pave the way to a more tolerant society, Hibbing said.

"If you think your opponents are not just being willfully bullheaded, but rather have a kind of biological predisposition toward a set of beliefs, you might not spend as much time beating your head against the wall trying to get them to change," he said.

I doubt that it is genetic. My parents are Republican voters, I can't vote, but I still decide who I want to vote for anyway. My thoughts, I vote for what the candidate stands for, and what they believe. That genetics thing is a little out there..

compared "cultures" based on dragon LORE, diagrams from
history archives is proof enough we all have something in common

here in the United States, freedom from religion was also interpereted as freedom
of religion, we have so many churches now, that it staggers the imagination
(countless thousands of churches). And they call us "GODLESS" PEOPLE/

Our history is quite unique, since we are the only country to freely practice our religion'the constitution protects these freedoms by making one very important exception:

that we can not HARM others in the process. somehow, the Bush regime by virtue
of power once in the white house took abuse of our system to the EXTREME, forcing their DOGMA of fear and hate on the rest of the population, stealing the white house by sabotaging our voting machines

why nothing was ever done about it is beyond me, unless we as a species have been pre-programmed since the beginning of time--to DO NOTHING

large beasts and reptiles used to wander into the hut and eat a family member for a midnight snack. each culture had different ways of dealing with predation.


obvious solution was to offer up the enemy one at a time to feed the monsters
tribal reject was dinner, old and sick clan members. religion created human sacrifice ritual to appease the monster god so that the rest of the clan didnt have to be the next meal

behavior pattern is deeply imbedded in our brains. must explain why bush is still in the white house. better to offer up sacrifice ( our soldiers) think of 911 as a terrible beast from across the sea attacking our village, be glad it wasnt one of us, and eat our sandwich like good little children

same thing happened in New Orleans, shock gradually settled into complacency
while the FEW like OURSELVES remembered SEEING the attrocities and continue fighting it through

AWARENESS MOVEMENTS LIKE LOOSE CHANGE

THIS TENDENCY TO BLINDLY FOLLOW A LEADER WHEN THREATENED GOES ALL THE WAY BACK its in the genome embedded in our dna by evolution
patterning our human behavior by ancestry

VIOLENT HISTORY OF MAN-- HIS NATURAL CONDITION


THE PRIMAL EXPERIENCE
There is a section of our brain, embedded in our brain stem, called the "Reptilian Complex". We have an inherent fear of snakes, it seems to be hard-wired into our brains, and inferred that it began in the primordial struggle for survival between reptiles and mammals.

In the early 19th century study of Ophiolatreia, or snake-worship. Deane's primary thesis here is that ancient serpent worship was based on memories of the Garden of Eden. He has a monomaniacal devotion to the subject of snake worship and sees evidence of it everywhere. Deane reviews a massive amount of data from antiquity, travelers tales, and legend and folklore.

A particularly compelling portion of the book describes ancient megalithic temples such as the Avebury and Carnac complexes as giant representations of snakes. One wonders what he would have made of the ancient American mound builders, who made huge sinuous earth sculptures in the Ohio valley.

MOVEMENT OF PANGEA
At one time in ancient history, cultures were in close proximation to each other.
A sharing of cultural beliefs between continents is not that far-fetched. The gulf coast of mexico, for instance, has ancient artifact evidence identical in every way to the pre-pharoh era in egypt. In fact the continent of north africa and the gulf of mexico were at one time together, on a map they easily fit together like a puzzle

Because of such advances such as the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics, excavations in Mesopotamia, detailed knowledge of eastern religions in the west, and the systematic study of folklore and anthropology, much of this information is outdated or incorrect.

For instance, etymologies can't be supported by modern historical linguistics. On the other hand, many later discoveries added to our understanding of the special role that snakes and other reptiles play in religion and mythology.

Such interaction in the game of survival and co-existance is imbedded in our subconcious memories inherited from our ancestors. Such survival behaviors can easily account for man's continued bloody pursuit of threats to survival, territorialism, politicing and scrambling for positions of power.

HUMAN BEHAVIOR AFTER 911 MATCHES THAT OF ANCIENT ROME:
SUFFER AN ATTACK, RUSH HEADLONG INTO WAR AND GLORIFY THE PROCESS

WHY THE INSANITY OF 911, WHY UGLY WARS SEEM BEYOND OUR ESCAPE

FEW ARE ALLOWED TO LEAD
We are born into a world controlled by unseen forces that have plagued and manipulated humanity for thousands of years. It is claimed to be happening to you NOW. You may look around and think that what you see is “real”.

But in truth you are living in an illusion – an illusion designed to keep you in a mental, emotional, spiritual prison cell. These forces and their methods of human control are all part of a fantastic web of global manipulation, orchestrated by forces bEyond this physical realm which we think we have created.

WHY OTHERS ARE CONTENT TO FOLLOW
Many wonder why all the people of the earth continue to follow like little sheep,
royals and feudal lords who claim birthright from bloodlines of ancient times.

As tradition fades over time, these powerful personages are still in place, careful to preserve their bloodlines, daring to claim their right to ownership, dominance,
and control of the people

Perhaps that tendency in their behavior which is more than a claim of birthright, perhaps the influence of bloodline, dna, and resulting behavior is more powerful than even they can explain, and they grow to accept the role, not because there
is so much to gain in power and influence, but because they can not help their natural tendencies.

Perhaps there are hidden bloodlines here in the united states, entities which live and operate among us; bloodlines of the royal, political, and economic rulers of today may very well be the same as those who ruled as the kings and queens of ancient times in europe and elsewhere.

REVOLUTION AND TRADITION--OUR VIOLENT PAST
cultures around the world are still in a terrrible grip of old ways and traditions which have historically pulled them down and allowed the few to rise above and flourish. This lack of evolution to break away from tradition, only to return, is by
definition evolution itself, holding us in place by subconcious responses for which we have no control.

Frequently we prefer to believe that as a democracy, we have risen above all this.
We may pull away for a while, celebrating our newfound freedom and lessons learned, only to fall back to old habits, comfortable again with tradition for a time, held hostage by our own tendencies, imprinted on the primal subconcious memories of our minds.

DEMOCRACY WAS FIRST CONCEIVED AND PRACTICED BY ANCIENT ROME
this thread attempts to compare the days of ancient roman democracy, fickle masses and senators, their behavior of both ancient times and current trends
and how these developments are identical. the fall of rome can be attributed to
over-extension of the military infrastructure, farming out mercenaries, demoralization of the soldiers, trade deficits due to social tendencies to avoid menial labor. all these ills are now pulling our nation down the tubes.

From the beginning of known humanity we have been programmed to follow commands. Ether religious commands or government ones. 100 years even 40 years ago we would all have blindly followed our governments and religious orders commands. Yet today it's changing. The world is just starting to break free from the endless preprogrammed mindset to blindly follow orders. Never in history has there been this much of a change in the minds of man. If this keeps up the others will finally view us in a different light. Maybe even help us to the next point we need to get to. Till then open your minds.

THE RISE AND FALL OF AN EMPIRE--WHAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE FALL ?

They have already compared our fearless leader to hitler and leaders of ancient rome, inbred and sick with power. Royals of today have a dubious family history of their own. No one civilization is exempt from their control.

We call this country of ours a leader among nations, pointing to diversity of cultures and other factors common to our culture which separate us from the rest, yet we are no different from the rest. We are still pitiful little puppets of a powerful regime, many are just beginning to realize it. Those who do not succumb to
brainwashing by regime propaganda on television can see it.

Others, may not notice until the facts are laid out for them. Much of what we need
to know with regard to correcting the error of our ways is to look to history. There
before us, are the clues to human tendencies, human error which, if addressed, can facilitate change and reform so that we do not meet the same fate as our predecessors. If you think America is the first democracy ever conceived,
LOOK AGAIN.

One classic ecample is the rise and fall of THE ROMAN EMPIRE :

MILITARY STATE
Rome was a militarized state whose history was often closely entwined with its military history over the 1229 years that the Roman state existed. The core of the military history of the Roman Empire is the account of its great land battles, from the conquest of Italy to its final battles against the Huns.

by the time of the late Empire (350 CE), the Roman navy comprised a number of fleets including both warships and merchant vessels for transportation and supply. Warships were oared sailing galleys with three to five banks of oarsmen. Fleet bases included such ports as Ravenna, Arles, Aquilea, Misenum and the mouth of the Somme River in the West and Alexandria and Rhodes in the East.

Flotillas of small river craft (classes) were part of the limitanei (border troops) during this period, based at fortified river harbors along the Rhine and the Danube. The fact that prominent generals commanded both armies and fleets suggests that naval forces were treated as auxiliaries to the army and not as an independent elite.

CENSUS
A key moment in Roman history was the introduction of the census (the counting of the people) under Servius Tullius. He had found that their aristocratic organization did not provide enough men for defense against the hill tribes (Samnites and others).

THE GENERALS
Consequently, he accepted non-aristocrats into the state and reorganized society on the basis of wealth, determined at the census.Citizens were graded into six classes by property assessment. From them were recruited milites according to the equipment they could afford and the needs of the state.

EXPANSIONISM
The primary cause of the Punic Wars was the clash of interests between the expanding Carthaginian and Roman spheres of influence. The Romans were particularly interested in expansion via Sicily, most of which lay under Carthaginian control.

At the start of the first Punic War, Carthage was the ascendant power of the Mediterranean, with an extensive maritime empire, while Rome was rapidly rising in prominence as the dominant power in Italy. By the conclusion of the third war, Rome had conquered Carthage's entire empire and razed the city itself to the ground, becoming in the process the most powerful state of the Mediterranean.

UNPOPULAR WAR
Scipio returned to Rome a great hero, and, although he was technically ineligible, was elected consul in 205 BC. He resolved to end the war by attacking Carthage itself, and appealed directly to the Centuriate Assembly when he found the senate opposed this.

So by order of the emperor, he was given command of the two legions in Sicily, plus 7,000 volunteers he had recruited, and the next year brought the war to North Africa when he landed at Utica, about twenty miles away from Carthage.

SPREAD TOO THIN
Here he was counting on support from the Numidians, who resented Carthaginian control and so agreed to provide him with cavalry. Hannibal was recalled from Italia, and had to leave behind the Hispanic and Gallic contingents that made up about two-thirds of his army.

BENCHMARKS
Meanwhile, Carthage had regained much of its prosperity through trade, further alarming Rome that a revived Carthage could again threaten them with war. The peace treaty at the end of the Second Punic War required that all border disputes involving Carthage be arbitrated by the Roman Senate and required Carthage to get explicit Roman approval before arming its citizens, or hiring a mercenary force.

EXIT STRATEGY
Rome employed Fabian tactics, dividing their army into small forces at vital locations, and avoiding Carthaginian attempts to draw them into field battles.

NATIONAL DEBT
Carthage suffered a humiliating military defeat and was charged with another fifty year debt to Numidia. Immediately thereafter, however, Rome showed displeasure with Carthage's decision to wage war against her neighbour without Roman consent, and told her that in order to avoid a war she had to "satisfy the Roman People." The Roman Senate then began gathering an army.

CIVIL WAR
Carthaginians endured the siege from 149 BC to 146 BC, when Scipio Aemilianus took the city by storm. Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the latter part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians (perhaps a tenth of the original pre-war population) were sold into slavery.

DEMOCRACY TO DICTATORSHIP
the end of the conflict (249 BC), Carthage sent general Hamilcar Barca (Hannibal's father) to Sicily. Hamilcar managed to gain control of most of inland Sicily; in desperation, the Romans appointed a dictator to resolve the situation.

AFTERMATH
Rome won the First Punic War after 23 years of conflict and in the end replaced Carthage as the dominant naval power of the Mediterranean. In the aftermath of the war, both states were financially and demographically exhausted.

SOUND FAMILIAR ? THERE IS MORE...

FAMILIAR PRACTICES WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO THE FALL OF AN EMPIRE

THE FIRST DEMOCRACY
Many historians have been attracted to the history of this empire because of the romance and revelation of its beginnings, A DEMOCRACY, a realization of man's dream for independence from dictators and the pursuit of philisophical endeavors.

Christian historians are especially attracted to the history of this culture because
it is a romantic belief that christianity was the overwhelming force which brought
Rome to its knees.

Many european nations emerged into the new age by adopting
rules of order and laws originally conceived by the founding fathers of this ancient
and most revered culture. Although not perfect, playwrites and historians still look
to this culture for its romantic and collosal presence in ancient history.

SEED OF PROSPERITY
The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the causes of destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and as soon as time or accident had removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric of which yielded to the pressure of its own weight.

THE SENATE
The Late Republic was characterised by the social tensions between the broad factions of the Optimates and the newly wealthy Populares. This struggle became increasingly expressed by domestic fury, violence and fierce civil strife after the formation of the triumvirate of Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus. Politicians often changed factions to support specific bills or personalities.


ECONOMIC WOES
FAMILIAR economic, political, and military factors contributing to the decline can serve as lessons learned to avoid the same fate, the Empire's collapse was caused by a diminishing marginal return on investment in complexity, a limitation to which most complex societies are eventually subject.

POOR TRADE
The Roman Empire produced few exportable goods. Material innovation, whether through entrepreneurialism or technological advancement, all but ended long before the final dissolution of the Empire. Meanwhile the costs of military defense and the pomp of Emperors continued. Financial needs continued to increase, but the means of meeting them steadily eroded.

TAXATION
a pattern of tax collection that drove small-scale farmers into destitution (and onto a dole that required even more exactions upon those who could not escape taxation), or into dependency upon a landed élite exempt from taxation.

WASTED SPENDING
Empire itself was a rotten system from its inception, and that the entire Imperial era was one of steady decay of institutions founded in Republican times. In their view, the Empire could never have lasted without radical reforms. The Romans had no budgetary system and thus wasted whatever resources they had available.

MORAL DECLINE
the Roman Empire – particularly the military – declined partially as a result of an influx of Germanic mercenaries into the ranks of the legions. This "Germanization" and the resultant cultural dilution or "barbarization", led to lethargy, complacency and loyalty to the Roman commanders among the legions and a surge in decadence amongst Roman citizenry

The oldest known writings where called the sand stone script. In them they depict the start of man as being made as slave workers for a race of creatures known as the Anunnaki. Translation literally means "from heaven to earth come." They where considered snake like. They made a law that their image never to be depicted. Yet there are 4 statues that do depict them (fogot where they are being held) The statues predates the egyptian era. All over the world there is reference to snakes in religious belief except the areas that have distroyed the history in that area. The best way to do this is to demonize the past gods. This can be best seen in the bible. The snake in the garden. Maybe we where made only to follow orders and be slaves but threw time we have rised above that. Now we can think for ourselves. And with that we can have a choice not to blindly follow orders not to be mice for our snake leaders.

Not unlike our civilization today, RELIGION was a requirement of social acceptance
to the prescribed belief of the masses, LEADERS IN HIGH PLACES such as senators
and military and even the seated emperor, could not shirk the requirement of subscription to the religion of the time.

Even present day POLITICIANS AND PRESIDENTS would dare not shirk the popular
belief of establishment religion, to do so would be instant POLITICAL SUICIDE.
Back in the days of ANCIENT ROME, such behavior would have spelled torture and death.


My purpose in bringing up Roman History is the evident PARALLEL to ancient roman history our democracy has, as with many other democracies in Europe
and elsewhere. Although you cant say the two civilizations are exactly alike, the same DYNAMICS OF HUMAN NATURE are still in play.

Dynamics such as ambition, greed, philosophy, and religion, and control of the masses. Throughout human history, religion of any kind played a key role in choices made by the people controlled by imposed religious doctrine.

There are many theories that suggest pagan worship of STONE GODS quickly gave way to CHRISTIANITY, and may have been a deciding factor in the
FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE.

To have a complete understanding of this, the very ROOT of helenistic GODS
and how this mindset evolved would have to be explored. Many studies have
uncovered the existance of a race of advanced beings which were later revered as GODS, having powers above and beyond that of mortals

Before the rise of christianity, Romans reluctantly used the belief of such gods as a basis for political gain, control of the masses, and often claimed blood relations with such legends to claim right to the throne of ROME or important posts in both
the MILITARY and the SENATE.

Romans who enjoyed the fruits of the GRAND EXPERIMENT OF DEMOCRACY were
in many cases SECRETLY UNSUBSCRIBED to such beliefs and kept their true
beliefs to themselves in order to keep their place in society.

ORIGIN OF ROMAN GODS AND GODDESSES

NEW GODS, NEW RELIGIONS
With the vast size of the empire, there was of course many new gods from distant civilizations which the Romans learned about. Romans didn't tend to think that only their gods were the right ones. If they heard of other peoples' gods they would think that these were real gods who watched over other parts of the world and whom they had simply not yet heard about. And so as they learned about these new gods, new temples were built to these new arrivals in the Roman pantheon.

At the founding of Rome, the gods were 'numina', divine manifestations, faceless, formless, but no less powerful. The idea of gods as anthropomorphized beings came later, with the influence from Etruscans and Greeks, which had human form. Some of the Roman Gods are at least as old as the founding of Rome.

The concept of numen continued to exist and it was related to any manifestation of the divine. For the Romans, everything in Nature is thought to be inhabited by numina, which explains the big number of deities in the Roman pantheon, as will be shown. Numina manifest the divine will by means of natural phenomena, which the pious Roman constantly seeks to interpret. That's why great attention is paid to omens and portents in every aspect of Roman daily life.

A lectisternium is a banquet of the gods, where the statues of the gods were put upon cushions, and where these statues were offered meals. The number 12 was taken from the Etruscans, which also worshipped a main pantheon of 12 Gods. Nevertheless, the Dii Consentes were not identified with Etruscan deities but rather with the Greek Olympian Gods (though the original character of the Roman Gods was different from the Greek, having no myths traditionally associated). The twelve Dii Consentes are lead by the first three, which form the Capitoline Triad. These are the three cornerstones of Roman religion, whose rites were conducted in the Capitoleum Vetus on the Capitoline Hill.

Relief from the Lion Temple at Naga, south of Meroë at the Sixth
Cataract. King Natakamani stands before the lion god, Apedemek,
and also Horus and Amun. The king's robe and the sash draped
over his right shoulder, which is typical of Merotic dress. The
Sudanese god Apedemek slowly displaced the divinities of Egypt.

The earliest inhabitants of what is now The Sudan. These Africans
were clearly in contact with predynastic civilizations (before c. 2925 BC)
to the north in Egypt, but the arid uplands separating Egypt from
Nubia appear to have discouraged the predynastic Egyptians from
settling there.

The empire of Darius the Great extended from Egypt in the west
to the Indus River in the east. The major satrapies or provinces
of his Empire were connected to the center at Persepolis, in the
Fars Province of present-day Iran. The Royal Road connected
111 stations to each other. Messengers riding swift horses informed
the king within days of turmoil brewing in lands as distant as Egypt
and Sughdiana.

The Statue of Zeus at Olympia is one of the classical Seven Wonders
of the Ancient World. It was carved by the famed Classical sculptor
Phidias (5th century BC) circa 435 BC in Olympia, Greece.

The Temple of Artemis (Greek: Artemision; Latin: Artemisium), also
known as the Temple of Diana, was a Greek temple dedicated
to Artemis completed around 550 BC at Ephesus (in present-day Turkey)
under the Achaemenid dynasty of the Persian Empire. Nothing
remains of the original temple, which was considered one of the
Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.

Ancient Troy embraced the same gods as their conquerors, the Greeks.
The Greeks besieged Troy for nine years. There were occasional
skirmishes, both with Troy and her allies. At one point, Greek forces
sacked a nearby town and Agamemnon took as his slave-girl Chryseis,
daughter of Chryses, a priest of Apollo. When Chryses tried to buy
her back, he was rebuked, so according to legend, he prayed to Apollo
to punish the Greeks, and the army was struck by a plague.

The story of Isis dominates the mythology of Egypt. Giant monolithic
structureswere created at the continued height of the dynasties.
The culture was highly advanced, having posession of a writing
system, knowledge of the stars, and a great respect for the afterlife.
Artwork and structures depicting the afterlife permiate the many
remaining artifacts scattered over thousands of miles from its
cultural center.

Alexander the Great was greatly influenced by this culture, and adopted
many of their technologies, not to mention great wealth and fatal decision
to pursue that wealth to the east into asia minor in search of jewels and
gold. Much of Egyptian wealth was from African nations to the south, and
may have also accumulated from early occupation in the americas.

{pyramids within pyramids} modern cities from the stone age
Scientists have only recently linked the pyramids of the central americas
to this culture, which at one time was a vast empire stretching all the way
to the americas. The original pyramids and great cities of central america
were covered by the same indiginous people who conquered them, using
blocks of stone and masonry, then re-painted. They covered each new
layer with their own carvings and statues. the cities themselves abandoned
repeatedly, covered with topsoil from volcano ash and vegetation.

Each time a civilization owning the pyramids were conquered, the same
covering process was done again.Three layers, created thousands of years
apart, have been uncovered revealing the original pyramids which have
no markings(identical to pyramidsof ancient egypt.) Indiginous people
would continue their devotion to their gods, unaware of the original purpose
for which the temples were constructed.

It is said that this culture,at the height of its dynasty, was part of the
mysterious Atlantian culture, legend of which created gods and
goddesses worshipped by Romans and Greeks, as well as other
cultures. Much of our technology today has been derived from
philosophy, mathematics, calendar and writing system which
pre-dates writing systems developed later by other cultures.

They believed their gods lived in the skies and named them and the
constellations after them. This is the reason why astrology and
mythology all follow the same patterns. In the end - the answers are
in the sky as they come from above. They believe our creators are
from higher realms.

The Amerindian culture types in the Strait of Georgia region are
chronologically defined as Old Cordilleran(ca.9000-6500 years BP),
Charles(ca.6500-3200 years BP), Locarno Beach(ca. 3200-2400
years BP), Marpole(ca.2400-1600 years BP), Strait of Georgia
(ca.1600-200 years BP), and Developed Coast Salish
(post-European contact). These are the native indian tribes who
migrated into the area or are the descendents of the early peoples
who migrated into the area.

found on vancouver island, this culture pre-dates conventional records
of ancient cilivization, these people were part of a central culture which
spread across 4 continents, all of which were in close proximity to each
other before the movement of tectonic plates. refered to as native american,
new discovery of artifacts matches jewelry, artwork of pyramid cultures

christianity( a picture of the universe )
embraced by romans even at the risk of torture and death, the concept of one god without slavery, having the benefit of original text fresh from the time of christ without tampering by men. after the fall of rome, men lost grip of that concept

when well-meaning scribes changed or omitted what they could not
understand. began forcing their thinking on others, creating a trend religious intolerance, which is why many try to demonize early christiandom and blame people of today for mistakes of their ancestors.

fall of rome
do not think christianity is what brought their demise, romans had the privilage to embrace christianity in its purest form. the realization that slavery was wrong did erode the artificial infrastructure that supported a way of life, nothing more. slaves were slowly replaced by employed servants.

after the fall of rome
loss of original text by well-meaning scribes, and influence of closed thinking through the ages began to transform that message, forcing others to adopt different variations of man-made belief systems or suffer the consequences. today, we may not have all of the original text, but what little we have is enough to get a glimpse of what romans were able to experience, which is enough for many

roman military
problems with roman legions--think their decadence and that of other tribes created that problem, demoralizing their armies, when the military is demoralized, that causes all else to erode--demoralization takes the mind away from heroic thoughts. without such thoughts, there are no deeds, the army has to maintain standards which are above the norm to function in unison as a body. this principal
applies even today

THIS FORUM HAS JUST HIT AWESOME WITH ME...................you are ALL finally understanding that this JUST ISNT ALL ABOUT 911 ANYMORE ....more research and more subjects to do with the elite ...........this forum is getting better and in the end could probably do with a name change.............its good to be back

glad you like it--the off the wall approach is comic relief, we need a little of that right now

yeah, what drives us to do what we do. whole world has changed little. 2007 and
we are still in the dark ages, no lessons learned. we've been asleep; people
should have been out in the street protesting, but did not know oil fires were set
by our own people. never looked at bush's past portfolio with arab oil stamped all over it.

when street gangs (thugs) run around killing people, robbing people, we call these
acts HANUS CRIMES. when even more organized thugs offer special interests their
protection in exchange for money, turns it into a business, we call them MAFIA.
ORGANIZED CRIME
.
at that point something happens to the civilian population, they start thinking about
their own mortality. the vast majority smell a rat but are too afraid to take action
and do something.

we have to commend our democratic (and some republican candidates for taking
this action) they care about the future of this country, they care about their kids.
they are litterally taking a chance on getting killed by bucking the system which
is currently run by thugs,mafia.

in the beginning, the american people settled into calm in face of that power, the same way civilians quietly observe the way of things when mafia control their neighborhoods, business. they were getting PROTECTION. now that deal they were offered, is coming at a great PRICE, their FREEDOM.

in the beginning of our democracy, the cliche "give my liberty or give me death"
could rally the hearts of men into action, at that time, they were facing death in the
hands of tyrany. today, few in the civilian population are willing to sacrifice their
lives for that principal, but are certainly willing to speak out , take measured risks to personal welfare, to fight for what they HOPE to preserve for their children.

WE HAVE TO HONOR THOSE POLITICIANS WHO RISK THEIR OWN NECKS to make
that change possible, other politicians will continue offering the same "deal" with
the few changes in the course this country MUST TAKE. we have to do whatever we
can to support them, while offering the GIFT of this movement's message to as
many as we can, THE TRUTH.

MANY CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THAT PROPHECY IS SOMEHOW ASSOCIATED WITH
BUSH'S BEHAVIOR, OTHERS BLAME ARAB LEADERS, OTHERS BLAME ONLY ONE
THEY SAY IT ALL STARTED --WHEN ISRAEL FIRST RECOGNIZED AS A STATE

christians believe not only in book of revelations but nostrodamus passages, already his passages, written in the 15th century, told of hitler, calling him hister

"HISTER" PASSAGE INTRIGUING
HAS DRAWN MUCH ATTENTION
NOW BELIEVERS LOOK TO BUSH
SADAAM, BIN LADIN & KADAFI
back in the 60's
houston news marked
kadafi's return the date
conspicuous for those
who believed in prophecy
houston news marked
story of nostrodamus
prediction on june 6,1966
and then printed article
again on june 6, 1976
the houston newspaper
printed the nostrodamos
quatrain and pointed to libya
naming muammar al-kadafi
antichrist with the blue turban
came from across the sea
assumed power at age 33
at the time there was talk
that kadafi was buying nukes
from rogue russian military
after countries with missile
silos liberated from russia


MUAMMAR AL-KADAFI
came from across the sea

HAS BEEN THE CORE OF THE JIHADIST MOVEMENT SINCE THE BEGINNING

MAYBE ... TOPIC SHOULD READ NOSTRODAMUS AND KADAFI---

Colonel Muammar Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi1 (Arabic: معمر القذافي (help·info) Mu‘ammar al-Qaḏḏāfī) (born c. 1942) has been the de facto leader of Libya since 1969. Although Gaddafi holds no public office or title, he is accorded the honorifics "Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" or "Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution" in government statements and the official press.

Gaddafi was the youngest child born into a peasant family. He grew up in the desert region of Sirte. He was given a traditional religious primary education and attended the Sebha preparatory school in Fezzan from 1956 to 1961. Gaddafi and a small group of friends that he met in this school went on to form the core leadership of a militant revolutionary group that would eventually seize control of the country. Gaddafi's inspiration was Gamal Abdel Nasser, president of neighboring Egypt, who rose to the presidency by appealing to Arab unity. In 1961, Gaddafi was [expelled from Sebha] his political activism.

Gaddafi went on to study law [citation needed] at the University of Libya, where he graduated with high grades. He then entered the Military Academy in Benghazi in 1963, where he and a few of his f