Killtown started a thread titled "What Drives Octs To Debunk 9/11 Cts?" and rather than derailing his thread, I thought I'd try to expand on why I believe skeptics seem so drawn to debunking 9/11.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories share many of the same elements that skeptics seem drawn to. People who believe in ghosts and the paranormal, creation, dowsing, and bigfoot all share some commonalities with the 9/11 truth crowd. Here are just a few examples:


Gains = Motive: This is the incorrect technique of looking at a result and then assuming that what happened before it must have been the cause. It's a technique that is used by one of the biggest crooks around, Kevin Trudeau, the author of "Natural Cures". Treudeau starts with the fact that the drug companies are rich to "prove" that it's the drug companies that are making you sick so that they can sell you more drugs, etc, etc. He also claims that they won't create 'cures' because they would put themselves out of business. All of this is utter hogwash, yet people believe it beacuse it appeals to their emotions, and it first glance it appears to make sense. Trudeau is continuously picked apart by skeptics.
The CT crowd use the same reasoning in defense of their theories. They start with the results (Silverstein's insurance, Bush into Iraq, etc) and then say that because these folks benefited, that they must have orchestrated it. It's a common logical fallacy, but it's repeated over and over and over again.

Intellectual Arrogance: For lack of a better term, many conspiracy theorists share this same characterstic with creationists and other types of believers. They assume that their limited knowledge of a subject (physics, biology, etc) is enough to dismiss the majority of experts in a given field. Their knowledge may come from reading books or websites written by authors who support their "side", or it might be simple observation. The CT crowds claim of "just look at WTC 7! It had to be a demolition!", holds as much water as a creationist saying "just look at the human body! It's too complicated to have occured by accident". Both the creationist and the CT assume that they just know more than the experts. And speaking of experts...

Experts: Every controversial subject has it's experts. The paranormal has Gary Schwartz, a PHD and a professor. Creationsim has professor of biochemistry, Michael Behe. And so on, and so forth. But having one expert, or ten, or even a hundred do nothing to further a specific theory unless the rest of their community reviews and validates their work. Here's where CT hero, Jones, parallels parnormal researcher Gary Schwartz - both of them appeal to the public, but neither has passed the rigorous test of peer-review.

"Fuzzy" evidence: Here's a common trait from the paranormal world. Show a fuzzy photo or video and draw conclusions, then force the others to 'prove you wrong'. Dust spots become "spirit orbs". Long exposures become "apparitions". In the CT world, you have squibs, pods, and "flashes". No natural explination is good enough, so the CT or the ghost-hunter continues to believe that his photo is proof.

Ignorance of statistics/odds: A common claim from creationists is that the Earth is just too perfect to have happened by chance. They calculate the odds of every factor that life exists (distance of earth from sun, speed of the earth, rotation, etc) and they come up with an astronomical number that 'proves' that the odds are billions-to-one-against that life could have occured on Earth - therefore God did it. THe CT crowd do the same thing. They pick little items from 9/11 (odds that a passport would survive, odds that the towers would fall into their own foot print, odds that the pentagon was hit on the one side that was reinforced, etc) and then they calculate an astronomical number to prove that the odds are against the official story.
This type of thinking can be done to disprove anything. The odds that you or I were born are astronomical. What are the odds that the sperm that created you was the one that would fertilize the egg? What are the odds that it would actually fertilize? What are the odds that your parents would meet? Apply this same thinking to both sets of grandparents, and continue on down through your lineage. According to this type of 'logic', it is impossible that you were born.

Inconsistancy of 'required' evidence: As the latest polls show, only a small minority believe that we are being told everything about 9/11. However, this is not to say that only a small minority believe that 9/11 was an inside job.
There many people who do not doubt for a second that we were attacked by terrorists, but they beleive that the government was incompetent or negligent, and now they are hiding their mistakes.
The CTs expect the official account to be air-tight. Any question that is unanswered is just further proof that they are correct. Unfortunately, this critical eye never gets turned on their own pet theory. Questions like "How did WTC 7 collapse?" and "Why won't the FBI release the videotapes of the Pentagon" are used as evidence that the offical account is all a sham. However questions such as "If there was no plane in Shanksville, then wherby the CTs without consequence.
Even when there are differing accounts, the CTs will side with the minority and assume it invalidates the other accounts. (There exist quotes from eyewitnesses that claim something other than a plane hit the towers/pentagon. Alhtough there are many, many more people that claim they saw planes, the CTs wrongly assume that the solitary witnesses who claim differently invalidate the majority)

Suggesting two equal 'sides' of the issue: Creationists and CTs do this alike. They seem to think that there are two sides to an issue, which somehow make both sides equal. Creationists believe that their theory (or ID) should be taught in schools alongside evolution because they both have equal 'proof'. CTs like to think that they are also just offering a different, but equally valid, version of the events of 9/11. Unfortunately, it's just not true (see: inconsistancy of 'required' evidence and experts above.)

Quote Mining: Creationists are notorious for quote mining. They'll grab out-of-context quotes from Darwin himself to 'prove' that evolution isn't real. CTs do the exact same thing. Just one example is the Fire Engineering quote that's continuously used to imply that the firefighters support conspiracy thinking. Of course, when the quote is put in context, they are saying no such thing.

Can't Be Proven Wrong: Dowsers have a belief system that is extremely easy to test. They claim that they can find water by simply hovering a dowsing rod (or some other stick) over it. They firmly beleive that they can locate water this way. When they are tested under controlled conditions, their results are always on par with random chance. Do they admit that they might not have this power? Nope. They blame there lack of a successful trial on anything and everything (clouds, not feeling well, interference, etc)
CTs are exactly the same. A claim is made by the CT. No matter what evidence is provided, the CT will find an excuse to dismiss it (i.e. anyone who disagrees with the CT is a "shill", or a "disinfo agent")

Cult-like beahavior: That's right. The 9/11 truth movement is very-much like a cult. As stated above, anyone who disagrees must be a shill, a troll, or an agent. Their forums are ruled with an iron fist, to keep anyone away from destroying their fantasy. The old LC Forum was a microcosm of this. When Loose Change began gaining popularity, the skeptics began asking questions. The policy went from open forums, to a skeptics section, to complete banning of anyone with a dissenting opinion. Once the skeptics were gone, the infighting began and regular posters started being pciked off one by one (JDX had an itchy 'trigger'). Now the forums have been rehauled. A new, more impartial, moderator is here and already we've gone back to pushing the skeptics. I fear that it's only a matter of time before the ban-hammer comes down on this forum again.

So, there are just a few of the tactics and techniques used by believers of all sorts. The skeptics are drawn to the 9/11 conspiracies for the same reasons they are drawn to debating the paranormal, creationism, and any other belief that share the same characteristics above.


Just my two cents.

Judging by the length of that post, I'd value it closer to $1.24.

Very well written. Bravo.

So if we are a "cult" and won't stop until we get an open and independent investigation, we not just let us have this investigation in the WORST ATTACK in US history so we can stop all of our "nonsense"?

Did you read the entire post? The answer was in there.

Yet again I ask for your proof.

The official story on 911 is far more ridiculous than ufos and bigfoot.

We are waiting for your evidence. Its been 5 years now lads, come on get your acts together.

We have shown you evidence. You are just not awake enough to see it.

I hear the same thing from creationists. They have weird definitions of "evidence", too

What evidence? You havent even got enough to indict osama. You have zero

Just because you dismiss it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's the same thing as creationists. Scientists could discover every single fossil that links man to ameoba - they still won't be satisfied.

The "evidence" that would convince someone like you, doesn't exist Pdoherty. Because you simply "want" to believe. Like creationists, you will never, ever be convinced that you are simply incorrect. Their is hope for fence-sitters, but for you Pdoherty, I'm afraid you'll never be convinced.

I do appreciate your input on this thread. You have unwilingly proven my opening post.

Why are using the creationist straw man? I believe in evolution.

So come on, give me 3 things that would prove the official story in a court.

In fact one would do

No strawmen here. You use the same tactics.

You believe in evolution? Why?

Because I do.

When are you gonna produce this proof that would stand up in court?

But why do you?

There are plenty of books that exist that show it's impossible! The bacterial flagellum is irreducably complex. How could it have evolved from anything if it's as simple as it could be and not be dead? How could the human eye have evolved?

If you can't answer these questions, how can you honestly believe in evolution?

This thread aint about evolution mr sidetrack

Now give me your proof of 911 that would stand up in court, or dont you have any?

Actually, this thread is about the beliefs and tactics of CTs and how they are indistinguishable between the beliefs and tactics of paranormal believers, creationists, and the like. It is you who is sidetracking.

The evolution argument is valid because it proves a very interesting point.

You can't explain every detail of it. There are scientists who say it's impossible. Hundreds of books have been written about the fallacies within evolution.

And yet, you believe it. Why?

When you understand why you believe in evolution you will understand why I believe the official story.

When you understand why creationists dismiss evolution, you will understand why you dismiss the offiial story.

Now, if you can stop side-tracking. Why do you beleive in evolution?

Aint interested in the comparison when it comes to murdering 3000 people.

Show me the proof that would stand up in court or retract your allegations against al quada.

You see evolution doesnt matter. It just is or it isnt and I couldnt give a toss and nor could anyone else here. Its time to put up or shut up with your evidence after 5 years

All the more reason why this is an important thread.

Show me all of the independent fossils from ameoba to man, or retract your belief in evolution.

Stop.

Breathe.

Now ask yourself WHY you beleive in evolution despite all of the 'evidence' that creationists and intelligent design proponents have.

The evidence is there Pdoherty. Presenting you with evidence of 9/11 is like presenting a creationist with evidence of evolution.

Have you made the connection yet? Is the analogy sinking in?

Okay, Pdoherty has admitted that he believes in evolution "because he does". When he was told that there are actually scientists who disagree with evolution, books that are written about the subject and many holes in the theory he still holds on to that belief.

So, since Pdoherty is being just as silly as an OCT for blindly believing in something even though he can't explain it, can any of the CTs in here explain to me why you believe in evolution?

Thanks.
Sly.

Well first, I doubt the FBI will release all the evidence agaisnt bin Laden as much of it may comprime finding him.

But the last time I checked a confession is enough.

Ive never really studied evolution. I dont believ in god so creationism is kind of out. It had to be evolution because we started with a big bang.

Now forget evolution that has nothing to do with 911 and give me your proof, unless you dont have any?

Where did he confess? He actually vehemently denied it three times between september and december of 01

So, you believe in something that you admittedly know nothing about? Isn't that the same thing that you critisize the "sheeple" who believe the official account of 9/11 for? Isn't that hypocritical.

Well, that still leaves Intelligent Design which is creationism without God accoriding to it's proponents.

A large part of the population disagrees, including scientists. Why do you choose your version of events over theirs?

Please stop trying to hijack this thread. This thread is about why skeptics are drawn to 9/11 conspiracies and the similarities between creationists and Cts. If you want to start a thread demanding proof of 9/11 then go ahead. Until then please stay on topic.

Do you yet understand how your belief in a conspiracy theory parallels the beliefs of creationists?

They have the same "evidence" as you - speculation, coincidence, and shoddy logic.

They have the same fringe "experts" as you - a small number of scientists who eschew peer-review and appeal to the public.

Rather than put forth there own theory of events, they simply say "you can't prove it, therefore you're wrong and we're right", just like you.

I am using the same tactics that you use on people who believe the official account. i am using these same tactics on you in regards to evolution. Can you not see the parallels?

I try to never lose hope in people. I have seen some pretty amazing transformations. I have seen devout Mormons who have gone on missions and were raised through Mormonism their whole lives turn into anti-mormons. They have actually gone on to write books about their experiences. Don't lose hope. Pdoherty may not realize it now, but maybe sometime down the line things will start to click.

I dont believe in Bigfoot, and so far, I have not seen any hard evidence about ghosts. Some guy could dress up in an ape suite and strut around, but no one can build a fake Twin tower and make a fake flash from explosive, or squib shot, because of the fact that The mainstream news FILMED the events, not the guy who's trying to prove the point (in this case, that 9/11 is an inside job)

If you dont think that profit is important to finding out who carried out a certain crime, then why is motive so important in criminal investigation?

Of course you have questions? What is the first reaction if you were friends with a girl and you told her that her boyfriend was cheating on her, even if it's true. "How dare you say that to me." "How dare you say that about him!"

That is because their minds cannot completely cope with the total shock of impact of this new idea. Your mind is undergoing a similar process, and right now you might be thinking. "How on earth could my government do this. It isn't possible. They represent me!"

We've lost controll of our government a long time ago, and now it's in a system of good cop vs. bad cop. A system that is corrupt and completely debauched because of a lack of oversight.

Remember, Alex Jones predicted 9/11. He warned us because they are evil, self-serving, elitists, and they need to be taken down.

Confession video. Oh I forgot it was you, you dismiss anything that support the OV.

What evidence do you have agaisnt any member of the US government?

I don't believe he will ever make the connection.

It's a great analogy. But, those who are brainwashed (read CULT) can, by definition, never get it.

Good thread though...

Its a great analgy.

If you think evolution compares to the murder of 3000 people you are severely mentally ill.


Oh and a troll to boot.

What is analgy? something sexual?

This thread is pretty stupid, you assume all "CT's" are the same. Not to mention this is probably the single most hypocritical thread I have ever seen in my life. You say you have shown all kinds of proof we just don't see it. Then later you say just a confession is enough(cause thats all you have). Considering Bin Laden denied the attacks right after 9/11, I really don't think its enough. And guess what, neither does the FBI.

Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you have trouble with large words, so I'll explain one more time for you, Pdoherty:

I am comparing THE TECHINIQUES, THINKING, AND METHODOLOGY of creationists to THE TECHNIQUES, THINKING, AND METHODOLOGY of conspiracy theorists. They are very, very similar.

It is the CTs who are making accusations of murder based on the same "logic" that is used by creationists.

Understand?

Actually, I'm not making assumptions. I'm basing my opinion on observation.

Maybe you can help out Cheansaw. Do you believe in evolution? If so, why do you believe in evolution and not creationism or Intelligent Design.

I'd appreciate an answer. Considering you took the time to comment in this thread, maybe you could help move the analogy along. Thanks.

So even though he later confessed, you believe the initial denial? So, in a case where a producer was going to make a fictional movie about 9/11, but later said that it was actually a documentary, should I disregard the later statement and assume that the documentary is fiction because that's what he originally said?

So, the FBI is not in on the conspiracy?

a bigger more important question is: what draws people to conspiracy theories?

i see it as an intense, emotional need to find greater meaning in seemingly meaningless events. added with a good deal of paranoia and a great distrust of authority.

freud would be very useful if he was around.

I think its people who have a need to feel like they are smarter the most people, also they want feel like they know some big huge secret. Basicaly the want to feel like the main character in 1984.

Maybe its because we dont just sit back likle zombies and accept the bull the corrupt governments feed us.

We are the true skeptics

The way I see your analogy is like this:

Evolutionists are like skeptics, because truth is, you need more faith to believe in evolution than in creation. You need more faith to believe in the official story than in the conspiracy. Evolution has no base, it's a completely illogical explanation of origin. The official story has no base, it is a completely illogical explanation of 9/11 events. People believe in evolution because that's what the teachers at their school told them. People believe in the official story because that's what the politicians at their government told them.

Even though 80% of US citizens (according to a poll made by Newsweek on 2005) believe that the universe was created by an intellectual being, even though 40% of scientists, including biologists, physics and mathematicians (according to Nature magazine in 1997) believe not only that God exist but that he listen and answers their prayers. Even though all of the overwhelming proof that not only destroys evolution, but that also supports creation. Even though all of this, some people still belief in evolution, because they just can't believe that a "miracle" can happen, because it's not scientific, when truly evolution is the one that is not scientific.

Even though. the overwhelming proof that not only destroys the official story but that also supports conspiracy theories, some people can't believe that a conspiracy could have happened. They need a LOT of faith to believe in evolution, just as you need a lot of faith to believe in the official story.

J

instead you faithfully accept the bull fed to you by opportunists seeking to gain fame or fortune from praying on the minds of folks using scare tactics, paranoia, rumors of secret shadowy groups taking over society, unsubstanciated accusations, etc. the only ones spreading more fear then the bush adminstration...are those who seek to "expose" them.

the neo-conservatives and the 9-11 conspiracy movemant...two sides of the same coin....fear!!!

"added with a good deal of paranoia and a great distrust of authority."

I think that describes PD to a T.

Just my .02.