I've always wondered why OCTs* ("skeptics") waste so much time/money/energy trying to debunk 9/11 CTs? I mean what's the worst that can happen if you don't, we get enough people believing there was a 9/11 gov't conspiracy, it leads to a new investigation, and that either proves or disproves a conspiracy? How horrible!

Why waste your time trying to prove what is already said to be fact? If I didn't believe there was a 9/11 conspiracy, I wouldn't waste my time trying to debunk CTs, I'd just let them burn themselves out if there wasn't a conspiracy, but I would definitely support any investigation just in case they are right.




(*OCT = Official Conspiracy Theorists)

*applauds*

I've always wondered why OCTs* ("skeptics") waste so much time/money/energy trying to debunk 9/11 CTs?

Well, I've wasted zero money or energy in this regard. A little bit of time, yes.

But, to make a long story short, it's for the same reason that I would want to dissuade my daughter from joining a cult.

Yes, a cult.

A frigging cult. Hello???? Earth to SOMEONE??? HELLO???

If no one shows the voice of reason, then she might drink the kool-aid.

Capish?

YOU, on the other hand, seem to be totally obsessed.

OK. I haven't called anyone a c*nt but I wouldn't be surprised if I get banned.

God bless America.

Id say gravys little troupe are more like a cult. They want to be part of something so they are hitching a ride on the truth movement. They have joined the wrong team and it wont be forgotten when the truth comes out.

You frequent JREF, you must know where that thread was about why the spend so much time doing what the do. I cant find it. Thats the thread that gravy won tla for

I couldnt care less what he won or why. The people at JREF are truth suppression merchants and provocatuers.

Id like to say more but out of respect for the spirit of civility we are undertaking in these forums I will stop there.

:blink:

Calling them truth supression merchants dosent help you at all. It just makes you look silly because we have most of the evidence.

You have zero evidence. You claim osama was behind 911 but even the fbi admit they havent enough evidence to indict him.

You have got zero evidence.

I'll applaud that :D

That is one hilarious statement right there. I am not even going to start on that because it is not the topic of this thread.

Why do I argue? Why do I fight? Hopefully to prevent the spread of such insanity and paranoia. Young high school and college kids are the future of America. Most of them if presented information in just the right manner, will soak it up like a sponge and start believing just about any crazy thing thrown at them. Loose Change is a perfect example of "Truth movemet" propoganda. The biased, deceitful tactics that they use to present their lies (And yes there are many blatant lies in the movie) play right up the alley of these young kids. Then when this crap starts getting taught in colleges (Dr. Jones), it is categorically wrong. Keeping this RIDICULOUS theory from spreading is why I do what I can.

1) So, do you do the same with all but the "right" religion?

2) Yes there were some mistakes in there, but can you show me just one "lie"?

3) Dr. Jones taught 9/11 conspiracy in college?

So who would you like the college kids to listen to? Bush, when he said there were wmds in iraq? Fox News?

Yes Killtown, I am right. I don't believe in a far fetched conspiracy that can't be proved. For mistakes and lies in Loose Change, just see Loosechangeguide.com. I am sure you have already read through it and completely ignored it based on nothing but oh well. And yes Dr. Jones has taught his nutjob theories in his lectures. How do I know this? Well that is how I found out about the whole 9/11 "Truth Movement". I am from SLC, Utah. One of my friends from high school attends BYU and had a class with Dr. Jones as his professor. During the lectures, Dr. Jones would sometimes preach his 9/11 gospel. My friend then decided to tell me everything that he heard. I was appalled at what I was hearing and did my own research. I reviewed all of the facts and found out how silly and inconsistent the entire theory was.

Please tell me what is wrong with Dr Jones hypothesis. He never taught it in class by the way.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/debunk.html

pdoherty76, did you attend any of his lectures or know anyone who did? You are speaking like you do. And I may have mispoke a bit when I said that he would teach this crap during his lectures. My friend would speak with him outside the classroom and everyone was well aware of Dr. Jones views. Here is some info about his garbage paper.

http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

Way to describe your own movement. Need friends who will pat you on the back no matter how stupid you sound? Feeling lonely and desperate for attention? Need to be a part of something? Join the 9/11 Truth Movement.

You accuse the administration of murdering 3,000 of it's own people, and you preach to know what happened, yet you haven't brought forth any evidence so that they can be charged. If you have it, do it, or shut up.

I skimmed it, didn't see any "lies". Please show me ONE or retract your statement.


And I'd also stop talking like the Screwies do about us with all their insults or you probably won't be posting hear much longer.

http://killtown.911review.org/911smokingguns.html

Debunking is fun plus the pay is good

:lol:

No I didnt ask for a link. This is not a link dump. YOU tell me what is wrong with his paper. You see, Jones doesnt think hes been debunked atall. His research is continuing nicely.

Oh thanks for admitting you lied when you said he taught it in class

Of course he doesn't see it as being debunked at all. People who are crazy and believe to know everything never do think they are wrong, even if most of the world is calling them retarded. And quad didn't admit to lying, he admitted to getting it wrong and corrected his mistake. Truthers should try it sometime.

Edit...didn't mean to say most of the world, because most of the world doesn't care what he has to say, and because of this, has probably never heard what he has to say. What I should have said was most people who have seen what he has to say think he's a moron.

Seeing as you jumped in to aid your losing comrade I wonder if you can answer my question. What errors have you found in the proffessors paper?

Seriously doherty have you even seen it, or do you just like him because he's a truther.

I have read it very closely. Question is have you seen it? Now answer my question. What do you think is wrong with it?

Or are you just link dumping a debunking that you havent even read.

If you havent got a scientific background then thats fine, just admit it

I can only speak for myself, but...

As far as wasting money, I haven't. As for time and energy, I've put a bit into reading and responding, but nothing that I consider wasted - I am interested in the subject at hand, and I'm continually learning new things.

As for the "worst" thing that can happen, I disagree with you. Personally, I don't think that a new investigtaion will ever happen, but if it does, I welcome it with open arms. Unfortunately it would never be satisfactory unless it matched whichever CT you (generally speaking) believed in.

In the meantime, videos and websites will continue to pop-up implying all sorts of things about 9/11. Facts are twisted and distorted (i.e. using the poll that says that most americans feel that we aren't being told everything about 9/11 as 'proof' that most americans believe that it was a conspiracy.). People who can't be bothered to check these things will accept them as fact. Children who were not alive during the horrible attacks will be brought up in a world where it will be almost impossible to find out information about what really happened on 9/11. Do a google search for 9/11... what pops up? Star wars lasers, controlled demo, no planes, etc. - all of it speculation masquerading as fact.

Again, I don't feel that there is anything to prove. As you said, it's already said to be fact. If there is a competing theory than the onus is on that person to 'prove' it.

Debunking CTs is a good exercise in logic and critical thinking. For instance, when someone says "no steel framed metal building has ever collapsed in history due to fire!", the CT uses this as proof that it must have been something else that took down the tower. The skeptic looks deeper - is it a justified comparison? were previous steel buildings severely damaged? were they built the same way? what other factors could have been involved? what were the similarities? what were the differences?

I've brought this up several times (and I wish I could find the original thread), but if you want to see the difference between critcal thinking and blind following, go to the old LC forums and find the Black Box Found thread. The skeptics are the ones that debunked that before it gained momentum (there is no doubt in my mind that if it had not been nipped in the bud, people would currently be thinking that the black boxes were indeed found and hidden at the Smithsonian - once a conspiracy theory makes it's way out onto the web, it's impossible to squash it, no matter how much evidence is presented against it. Once folks have accepted it as 'truth', nothing will sway them.)

Of course it's frustrating at times. Mostly because nothing will convince a CT that they might be mistaken.

I find their arguments similar to creationists in the sense that any single peice of evidence can be found a way to fit a story. A person saw a plane hit the tower? They are a shill or they were paid off. A person didn't see a plane hit the tower? They are telling the truth. Everything can be made to fit into the CT.

And like creationists, many think that they know more about a specific subject than experts in the field. Creationists will tell you that the human eye couldn't have happened by chance, it's too complex. They'll bring up the irreducable complexity of the flagellum. Are they so naive as to think that biologists and evolutionists aren't as smart as they are? CTs do the same thing. Some tell you that simple physics shows that the events couldn't have unfolded as seen. Some claim that they know it was a controlled demolition - just look at it! It's so obvious! Are they so naive to think that structural engineers aren't as smart as they are?

Just like creationists, CTs never develop a full theory of their own. It's merely bits and peices strung together. They attempt to poke holes in the offical account and then think that this somehow proves their pet theory.

Just like creationists, most CTs will never admit that they are mistaken. No evidence will be good enough to show them that they are mistaken. If an independant investigation backs up the official account of 9/11 then they will be labeled as shills - connections (no matter how indirect) will be found to link them to Bush, Cheney, or anyone in the current administration. Ten or twenty years from now, when the NWO still hasn't taken over the world, the CT will convince himself that it was he and his mighty band of internet buddies who scared the powers that be into hiding. The CTs can not lose... everything and anything can and will fit into the CT world.

So why do I continue to bang my head against the wall with CTs? Probably the same reason I allow myself to get into discussions with creationists (or folks who support ID), because it's bad science. It's speculation. It's anecdotes. And it's wishful thinking based on a preconceived idea or notion. The more I discuss, the more I learn - about the subject at hand and about critical thinking in general.

That's my honest opinion. Sorry for the long post.

Still waiting for bubbers and co to tell me whats wrong with Jones paper without dumping a link they havent even read.

Killtown -

Look Harder. Jason Bermas is on record saying that they purposely put false information into the movie. Intentionally, not telling the truth is called 'lying'.

(of course, I don't believe he's ever said what part of the movie is false. So as of right now, there is no way to tell the difference between their lies and their mistakes.)

A very sly denial, I could not have put that any better myself. Very well done post. I am not gonna be like the CTs and just put up smiley face with sunglasses on after a post like that and think that I am the shit. (notice they do that when they think one of their buddies has just proved someone wrong). I am just gonna say that even though everything you said there is basically just how it is, CTs will never realize that. Notice how none of them will even respond to you. Even if they do, it will not be a rational response.

I've noticed skeptics do that as well.

Super, then show me one of those "lies".

Here is a quote from Loose Change
"Rumor has it that over $160 billion dollars in gold were stored in the World Trade Center."-Loose Change

That is so so very wrong. "That would be approximately 53.6% of the world's gold reserves as of September 2001. (Source: World Gold Council 2001 monthly report)"

That line said in Loose Change is a lie. What you think that was just a little error? Just read that whole part about the gold and see the ridiculousness of it. Dylan Avery knows damn well that there was not $160 billion dollars in gold stored in the towers. Why did he say it then? To deceive. You can call it a mistake, deceit, honest error, WHATEVER. To me, that is a lie. That whole movie is filled with lines just like that one.

You quoted my post so I'm assuming you read the whole thing. The answer you are looking for is right here:

There's no way to tell the difference between the mistakes and the blatant fabrications.

If you really want to know, I sugget you send an e-mail to Jason Bermas. As I said, he has specificly said that they purposely put incorrect information into the movie. Of course, he has not said what that information is.

What part of "Rumor has it" do you not understand about that line?

:::raises hand:::

Can I answer that?

[conspiracy theorist mode]
It's not REALLY a lie because he never claims $160 billion dollars in gold was stored there.... he's only claiming that there is a rumor that $160 billion dollars in gold is stored there. And there IS a rumor that $160 billion dollars in gold is stored there, because Loose Change just created it!!
[/conspiracy theorist mode]


ETA: I'm just not fast enough!! Killtown beat me to it.

1) So why do you keep saying the purposely lied in LC?

2) Link?

Why are YOU lying? LC didn't create that.

Yeah, there's quite a bit of "rumor has it" and "it is said" and "they say" in Loose Change.

If I was making a documentary, I'd probably check to seee if that rumor was true before sticking it in my movie (unless it isn't true, then I'll just stick it in and say "rumor has it", or "they say")