http://www.911familiesforamerica.org/?p=455

Sat 25 Aug 2007
It is time to put the 9/11 “truthers” to shame

Posted by Tim Sumner under CAIR, 9/11, conspiracy theories

Allen Forkum of Cox&Forkum writes:

If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend the new History Channel documentary debunking the 9/11 “truth” movement: 9/11 Conspiracies: Fact or Fiction. The show airs twice more this weekend: Saturday, August 25 at 8:00 PM and Sunday, August 26 at 12:00 AM.

For nearly six years now, we have witnessed the lies and profiteering of the 9/11 “truthers.” In additon, a menagerie of misfits, mentally ill people, and the willfully ignorant have, either completely or in part, bought into their garbage. The most recent converts to the “truther” cause are apparently two Ohio State University professors. Luke Sheahan, of Family Security Matters wrote of them Wednesday:

The two professors, John Mueller and John Quigley, are both well respected in their fields and both hold endowed chairs. Mueller holds the Woody Hayes Chair for National Security and published the book Overblown: How Politicians and the Terrorism Industry Inflate National Security Threats, and Why We Believe Them, which argues the simple thesis that there is no terrorist threat. Quigley, a Harvard-educated scholar, published an article on how Osama bin Laden is really just an anti-colonial activist. Empathy for Osama’s type is thus not hard for those residing in the hallowed halls of academia.

The panel was sponsored by the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) in Ohio and Columbus 9/11 Truth. The Ohio chapter of CAIR contributed two members to the panel, Abukar Arman and Ahmad Al-Akhras [emphasis added mine. More about these two in a moment]. Arman published an article last December in the California Chronicle in support of the Islamic Courts Union’s takeover of Somalia. Arman subsequently lost his place on the Central Ohio Homeland Security oversight board. We’ll ignore for now the obvious question of what he was doing there in the first place. Al-Akhras, Vice Chair of the national CAIR, has spoken out in support of convicted terrorists. And of course, CAIR’s dubious connections with Islamic “charities” are well known.
…
What would make distinguished professors at a major American research university fall for the patently absurd ideas propagated by the likes of Columbus 9/11 Truth? Or even allow themselves to be associated with such clearly unsavory fellows as Abukar Arman and Ahmad Al-Akhras? This isn’t just your run of the mill anti-Americanism, its full blown crazy black helicopter conspiracy theories. However, there is a connection. The vision that makes some academics anti-American also lends itself to making them conspiracy theorists.

Professors sitting in their Ivory Towers imagine that a perfect order is attainable in this world. Of course, America falls short of that order, but, comparatively speaking, not far. Historically, most countries are far worse, and few can boast even one or two of the many benefits America has granted its citizens and the world. But that’s neither here nor there.

The dream for a perfect order can never be consummated. In this imperfect world it is impossible; it must forever remain a dream. Those who hold this belief, like Professors Mueller and Quigley and their Communist sympathizing predecessors, must develop an explanation for why their purposes are continually frustrated. Why did the Soviet Union and not the United States fall? It must be that the leaders of the Soviet cause were corrupt and fascist in nature. With the right leaders, perhaps the experiment could one day succeed. As long as corrupt, fallen human beings are at the helm of such enterprises, and they always will be, then I suspect the results will only be more of the same…

9/11 family member Peter Gadiel weighed in about the two professors, CAIR, and a leading “truther”:

The granddaddy of these “the U.S. government did it” fairy tales is a film called “Loose Change,” manufactured by a fellow by the name of Dylan Avery, a film he admits was inspired by the film “Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery,” and conceived while he was “high.” The fastest way anyone can debunk this film is to read the Canadian Broadcasting Company’s interview with Avery.

In that interview, Avery admits lack of foundation or proof for his assertions, and admits the existence of reliable opposing scientific opinion, admits that much of what he says is speculation, and backtracks when confronted with facts (e.g. after saying NORAD intentionally sent planes in the wrong direction in the search for the hijacked planes he then says: ”I don’t want to implicate anybody without hard evidence, but it seems that NORAD and the FAA and a lot of key institutions of our government simply dropped the ball.” (Most of us understand that “dropping the ball” is quite different from intentionally allowing 3,000 people to die.) You can see for yourself the logical gaps (actually they’re logical canyons) in this man’s reasoning.
…
In short, with his ludicrous claims of “the government did it,” Mr. Avery is diverting the attention of the American people from the true causes of 9/11 which are Islamist hatred and U.S. government incompetence and corruption. That is the real danger of the “9/11 Truthers.”

Under the circumstances, CAIR would be foolish if it didn’t join this bandwagon; any scheme that will shift blame from Islamists to someone else is okay by them. “Hey dumb Americans,” says CAIR, “don’t believe your own eyes. Islamists didn’t do it, you did.” And Mr. Avery and those Ohio State professors are carrying their message.

Ohioans Abukar Arman, Ahmad Al-Akhras, and third member of CAIR recently accosted a former Marine late one evening outside of his home because they did not like a bumper sticker on his car.

On at least two occasions, Mr. Al-Akhas has expressed his support for accused and suspected terrorists.

In April, Columbus resident Christopher Paul was arrested for terrorism related charges after being under surveillance for four years. Yet the Associated Press quotes Al-Akhras as saying of Paul:

“From the things I know, he is a loving husband and he has a wife and parents in town. They are a good family together.”

AP added that Al-Akhras said his group will work to make sure Paul’s constitutional rights are granted.

In November 1999, two men were removed from an American West flight from Phoenix to Columbus and detained after landing because they had made repeated attempts to enter the cockpit area of the plane during the flight:

“…the 9/11 Commission Report (page 521, footnote 60, pdf reader required) explains that the FBI now considers the incident as a “dry run” for the 9/11 hijackings. And the two men involved? As the 9/11 Commission Report explains, Hamdan al-Shalawi was in Afghanistan in November 2000 training at an Al-Qaeda camp to launch “Khobar Tower”-type attacks against the US in Saudi Arabia, and Mohammad Al-Qadhaieen was arrested in June 2003 as a material witness in the 9/11 attacks. Both men were friends of Al-Qaeda recruiter, Zakaria Mustapha Soubra, who drove them to the airport that day in Qadhaieen’s car. Another friend of Shalawi is Ghassan al-Sharbi, another Al-Qaeda operative that would later be captured in Pakistan with high-level Al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida.
…
“Their current silence and website purge notwithstanding, immediately after the November 1999 “dry run”, CAIR was not shy about publicly speaking on the incident. “It seems like they single out some individuals because of their name, the way they look or their national origin,” huffed current CAIR National Vice Chairman Ahmad Al-Akhras (who was then president of the CAIR Ohio chapter) in an interview with the Egyptian daily, Al-Ahram. That same article quoted Nihad Awad, Executive Director and Co-Founder of CAIR, who explained, “the hysteria around [the crash of] EgyptAir [Flight 990] has created a negative atmosphere that leads to such incidents.”

As thousands of 9/11 family members and friends gathered last September 11 at Ground Zero in remembrance of those we lost six years ago, a crowd of perhaps 250 “truthers” collected nearby (see image below) like slime in a cesspool.

Alex Jones and his ghouls gather at Ground Zero 9112006



As the 9/11 “truthers” have no shame, it is about time we starting judging them all for the company they keep.

-_-

:lol:

He cant even lie right. 250 truthers?? Try thousands.

You may want to visit:

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

before spewing your nonsense about truthers.

LIES there was only 18 men 3 women with tin foil hats!!



:rolleyes:

I wasn't taking the author's side on the article. I was merely posting an article that I found. Perhaps I should have made that clear in the first post.

the 9/11 truth movement is world wide, i mean there are over 4 thousand members here, and thats doesnt include all the people whos familys are truthers aswell

that is the most pathetic attempt at smearing us I have every read.

the families have questions... so are they conspiracy nuts too?

If you question one single aspect of the official conspiracy theory, they will call you a nutty conspiracy theorists. I imagine it's just a matter of time till they begin calling us "home-grown terrorists".

How about Cindy Sheehan, who's called for a new investigation? Will she be labeled a terrorist as well?

So Bill Doyle, the man representing the largest group of families affected by 9/11 who believes (along with the families he represents) that 9/11 was at the bare minimum a government complacency, somehow shames the families by fighting for the truth? he is somehow disrespectful?

Your attempt at smearing this cause is almost as substantial and credible as the movie in which you suggest we watch. I don't have the time right now to get into it but Alex himself did about 1-2 hours of radio on the hit piece, all the tricks they used in the entire thing. But Im not here to debate you as you are clearly not going to listen, I would like your opinion on this video here, and when your done watching it can you tell me why YOUR GOVERNMENT released a FAKE TAPE of Usama admitting to the attacks of 9/11?
The Usama Deception
3 seperate universities have done nose to eye to ear comparisons and big surprise, its not him, not only is it not his face, its not his voice, voice analysis has proved this but then again a bag of meat with eyes such as yourself should be able to see this clearly.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on 9/11, but it annoys me when I see one side trying to discredit another through name calling or cheapshots.

That comic on the link is a pretty good example, what exactly are they proving with that? That they can be more childish and ignorant? I don't understand why having a theory or a belief about an event automatically makes you a 'moron' or a 'nut'. All this does is demonstrate the closed minded attitude everyone has.

Geronimo:

A CALL FOR NATIONAL PUBLIC PROOF EXPERIMENTS.

Steel I-beams burn at 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, a WELDER'S acetylene torch that cuts steel I-beams burns at 6,000 degrees Fahrenheit and the SUN IN THE SKY burns at 5,800 degrees Fahrenheit. Reaching a high enough temperature to burn steel without the use of oxygen gas, requires the use of COKE, a derivative of COAL, and can't be done without the use of a BLAST FURNACE. To my knowledge there were NO BLAST FURNACES at the tops of the WORLD TRADE CENTERS. And, the temperatures did not reach any higher than 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit according to the report on PBS last week.

All the people of the United States need to have a Publicly Controlled Jet Fuel Steel I-beam Burning Experiment of the same equivalent circumstances as the WORLD TRADE CENTERS circumstances? I think an experiment would be a wonderful way for the United States, and the world, to be able to see what really happened as it would either confirm or deny the circumstances of the collapse of the WORLD TRADE CENTERS. A publicly controlled experiment is imperative, because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THINKING PEOPLE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS SAID, and it appears to be a cover up, especially since this REPUBLICAN administration has been proven to be a culture of lies, deceit and corruption. The 9/11 Commission was also a part of the cover up; otherwise the 9/11 Commission would have made a public demonstration of how it ACTUALLY happened to either confirm or deny the circumstances of the collapse of the WORLD TRADE CENTERS, other than unverifiable propaganda.

Open air national and public experiments could be done across the nation using 6" slices of a comparable steel I-Beam that can be verified by the architects of the WORLD TRADE CENTER BUILDINGS and canister welding torches filled only with jet fuel, NO OXYGEN. If our government is unwilling to do publicly controlled experiments for the nation, it is only because they know how it will turn out.

Watch the video and listen to the people at the following link. There were lots of EXPLOSIONS:

MIT Engineer Breaks Down WTC Controlled Demolition (Listen to the video.)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1822764959599063248

Also the yellow molten steel found in the basements of the WORLD TRADE CENTERS suggests that the commonly used explosive thermite more than likely is responsible for their collapse. Buildings not destroyed by explosives would have insufficient directed energy to produce the large quantities of melted steel that were discovered. The molten steel was found five days after the collapse, on Sept. 16, when the NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site’s hot spots.

Physics Professor Says Science Points To WTC Controlled Demolition (Listen to video)

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/novem...5twintowers.htm

People really need to peruse these sites and consider why Islamic fanatics went to such great lengths to wire the largest complex of buildings in the world with explosives when a topple collapse would have caused more damage to lower Manhattan, have been cheaper and would have killed more Americans? Think about it.

Martha,

You REALLY need to do some proper research into the effects of fire on steel and the reasons for steel failing before reaching melting point.

The stuff you posted here is so 2002 and I doubt many in the truth movement seriously argue anymore that the wtc steel had to melt for the towers to have collapsed.

If you want some examples of fire testing unprotected steel, I would suggest you google the Cardington Fire Tests.

Patches O'Houlihan:

Why not a public exibition so all can see how jet fuel melts steel? Why is is so secretive to the public?

You didn't read anything I wrote. :rolleyes:

The steel didn't melt. Look it up.

You want to find out about fire and steel? Try looking at some sites for companies which manufacture fireproofing systems.

Patches O'Houlihan:

What do you mean the steel didn't melt, it was melted in the basements and found by NASA. If you have some evidence that what NASA found was not melted steel, where is it?

You're confusing two issues.

1. Structural failure occurred because the steel of the floor trusses weakened in the fire. Not melted, but weakened.

2. Molten metal was witnessed in the pile after the collapse. There is no definitive proof exactly what this metal was, but since there was a great deal of aluminium in the buildings and aluminium melts at a lower temperature than steel it is very possible that the metal was the aluminium. Of course it could have also been steel, but if it was hot enough to maybe melt steel then it was definately hot enough to melt aluminium. The isolated fires in the pile could have had enough fuel (as in 'things which burn') and air to have stayed hot for an extended period of time. But these were isolated.

Just because molten metal was discovered after the collapse does not mean that molten metal was the cause of the collapse. In fact, given that the metal was apparently molten for such a long period of time and that molten steel and aluminium cool very quickly, it is logical to conclude that the metal was the product of fires within the pile rather than the fires in the building prior to collapse, because without the fires in the pile there was nothing to keep the metal molten after the collapse, but with the fires there was a source of heat which could either keep the metal molten or could produce molten metal from the wreckage.

Patches O'Houlihan:

Just answer this, what is wrong with nationally getting a 6" piece of steel comparable to what was in the World Trade Center, or a bigger piece if size matters and applying a jet fuel blow torch, or two or three jet fuel blow torches to see what happens to that piece of steel? What is wrong with that? I think it would be good for the Nation.

Just saying something happens that is impossible just isn't good enough. It seems to me like people should go along with a public experiment to heal the nation and if it works, it works, and if it doesn't it doesn't.

Then do it. :P

You'll prove nothing, but if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

BTW - How about using the same size steel as comprised the floor trusses? You know, for the sake of realism?

Tell you what, you could try getting thermite/thermate/soopertherm(?)te to burn horizontally through a large steel section column.

Though I do believe someone tried that recently..... or more accurately said they were going to try it, found they couldn't and so ended up putting the thermite in a bowl and calling it 'art'.

PDF document regarding fire protection to steel:

http://tinyurl.com/28yqur

Patches O'Houlihan:

I had a steel skillet that was a fine steel skillet that made it through a large house burning completely to the ground. Everything else was gone, but the steel skillet did not burn or lose its shape.

So you are saying that all the steel was hauled off and the melted metal is desks or metal cabinets. Why was the site evacuated of the steel so fast?

That's a fine skillet. Maybe we should build towers out of them?

The steel was taken to Freshkills and examined there. The clean up took months. Google it.

The recovery operation at GZ was predicated on finding the bodies of victims. You can't do that (and in the early stages possibly find survivors) with tons of steel in the way.

What would you have had happen? The site preserved as a crime scene for a couple of years so that it could all be sorted through in-situ piece by piece? Is that realistic given the size of the pile?

The whole of the exterior of the perimeter columns was clad with aluminium. Aluminium is used in many services within the building, along with other low melt point metals such as copper. The planes were mostly aluminium.
Aluminium and copper melt at much lower temperatures than steel.

Patches O'Houlihan:

It wouldn't accomplish nothing if I alone did an experiment. If an experiment is to be done, it would have to be a national experiment with the nation paying for the materials so that the controversy can be put to rest.

Cardington fire tests (with pictures):

http://guardian.150m.com/fire/small/cardington.htm

ETA: Still think fire doesn't weaken steel?

Patches O'Houlihan:

The site should have been preserved as much as possible until the Fire Inspectors had done their inspections, but everything was run off with. They could have looked for people and still preserved the site.

Steel is steel. I'm certain if the skillet had been cast iron, it would have melted, but it was steel.

I'm sorry, I have to go, but I think there should be an experiment for the nation to show how this happened using jet fuel, not just tell us about it.

Melting point of Iron 1538 deg.C

http://www.chemeurope.com/lexikon/e/Iron

Melting point of steel 1370 deg.C

http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html

Footage of the destruction by fire of the glass and IRON structure 'Crystal Palace' in 1936:

http://newsfilm.bufvc.ac.uk/article.php?st...005100819530392

Patches O'Houlihan:

You sure can weld steel at that temperature. You need to talk with a welder. A torch to cut steel is 6000 degrees Fahrenheit. Why do you think it has to burn so hot?

Patches O'Houlihan:

I meant, are you sure you can weld steel at that temperature?

MarthaA ,

You lost the debate. Patches posted a link I would suggest you read it very thoroughly. The giant pile of debris acted as an oven and burned for days at extremely high temperatures and melted steel.

intheflightlevels:

Sorry, I disagree with all those posts. That info was not correct. Sooner or later real proof will come out.

Thus spoke a true believer. Faith over facts.

Grr....It's late for me.

I think that there's a difference in these temperatures.

Low alloy carbon steel, such as A36 grade, contains about 0.05% sulfur and melts around 1426–1538 °C (2600–2800 °F).[5

High Alloy ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#_note-3

And this would invalidate my example of a huge Iron and glass structure being totally destroyed by fire in 1936, how precisely?

It's all about stress, tension, and temperature. I don't know what example you're discussing about. I just wanted to clear up the difference between A36 steel and what you posted.

Martha just because your skillet survived a small house fire, you believe the steel in WTC should have as well. Very poor logic!!

Read through all the links patches has provided.

I think the point you are failing to understand, is that steel structures do not need to melt in order to fail. They need only to be weakened, to deform enough such that the structural system fails.

Read up on an engineering principle such as Young's Modulus of Elasticity. Review the theory. If you can understand this principle, you will see that it is possible for a steel structural member to deform (weaken) at a high temperature. It DOES NOT need to melt.

Once you have grasped this principle, I suggest you read up on another engineering principle. That relates to the concepts of a structural system. Like a spiderweb, all structural elements in a structure are connected and depend on eachother, with numerous redundancies built in. This concept is important to understand.

Yes also look up adiabatic flame temperature for kerosene on steel.

Of course, because kerosene was the only substance burning in the buildings.

Slightly off that point - Were the floors of the offices in WTC 1,2 & 7 carpeted?

In any other fire that has other objects burning in skyscrapers, the observed buildings so far known to have been in fires don't collapse on this planet, yet we have 3 in one day all fall within 1-2 and 8 or so hours. Something don't sound right and I'm not talking damage between the buildings. WTC7 by itself had carpet also, so I think that the observation of carpet doesn't add very much to the materials argument. Things are just too funky with the explanation as the government spent only Two million for a government sponsored lame un-independent version of events.

It would have been better if an International Academy of Sciences had tried this explanation. Gathered evidence and filed reports based on intellect not sponsorship of towing the line.