http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5033108366.html

My vote for "most overlooked aspect of Pentagon Story" .... this expose' by the Washington Post. Though it wasn't retracted, in one clean cut, it undermines much of the 757 story by sheer accident.


A case of corndogs will be faxed to you if you can locate the part of the story (archve the page) which does not tend to support the 757-strikes-E ring facade "official story"

Don't JREFers like corndogs? what, all vegans?

one more time:
this washington post article quotes a marine major who ran to help people in "the most damaged part of bldg -- the B ring"

the Pentagon has 5 rings. Outer ring E, then D, C, B etc A and courtyard.

Whether you think a plane struck the Pentagon, or if it were a hoax, stop thinking about the OUTSIDE of the Pentagon for one moment.

Think of the inside. Got it?

now, what could cause the fire and decimation in the B ring? That's a long way from the facade.

there's your question: who and what killed the men and women in the B ring of Pentagon on 9/11?

http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/5m/...p01/attack.html

From two-star army generals to marine officers to navy medics .‚.‚. everybody helped," he said.

He said he was part of a make-shift rescue crew that tried to pulled out a civilian who was pinned by fallen pipes and other debris. As the hot, thick, black smoke built up, the men passed wet t-shirts to one another and removed debris piece-by-piece in assembly-line fashion.

"It took 30 men, 30 minutes to get just that one guy to the door 15 feet away," he said, adding that the man was cut and bruised but not seriously injured.

The major said that hundreds of people worked in the B-ring area and that it was "decimated .‚.‚. that heat and fire, it could eat you alive in three seconds."


-------------------------------
anyone want to take a shot at the B-ring mystery>?

This is crazy stuff.

Nobody should have been killed in the B ring.

People in B-ring should have been unharmed since the punchout hole ended on the inner
C-ring. There must have been planted explosives if people were killed in the B-ring.
Punch-out hole in C-ring


No Hole Through the B-ring Wall
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/062.html

Strike Against the Pentagon
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/natio...pentagon_3.html
Bombing At The Pentagon
http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/...tagon/frame.htm

I agree with Craig's assessment:

"This is crazy." --

deaths in the B ring certainly do NOT square with a plane, or a missile, entering Wedge One from the West side.

if you accept the premise of "one hijacked plane, one cause of all visible destruction" -- then, you are forced to follow bizarre logical acrobatics, that include finding GREATER damage in areas FARTHER from facade and E ring then closer, as well as the difficultly of lining up "punch out exit holes" with trajectories.

When, in fact, the hole "punched out" on A-E drive manages not even to scratch the other side into the wall of B ring...

Even Russell Pickering acknowledges that the 3 North column, at the far borders of the C ring, described as merely 'some cracking or spalling' was in instead heavily damaged. (see Russ;s damage analysis)

The widely-accepted hypothesis of a "plane or missile" striking the E ring, and traveling through the E, D and C rings, only to stop in mid air on A-E drive, clearly is insufficient to explain all of the damage, when and where it took place.

No one should have been killed in the B ring, if truly, we are dealing with a 757 striking the E ring (reinforced) wall.

You are right about "crazy".

I could not have come up with a better term.

SD Preston & Craig:

valid questions about B ring deaths. WTF?

I reject the plane-strike hypothesis. I reject the missile hypothesis as well.
PentaCon and eyewitnesses imply that a flying object flew very NEAR the Pentagon, but perhaps not INTO.

5 frames of security video shows something "missile like" striking the facade of the Pentagon.

however, both are insufficient to explain the full compass of the damage to the building.

April Gallop wasn't struck by a plane.
Something else happend in the E ring.

Gerald deconto, Naval Command Center, in the D ring, wasn't hit by a plane, nor its debris. Something else.

And the B ring, testified here by the WashPost article?

--------------------------
here we depart the "rejection of the conventional 757 explanation" and move to the speculative aspect:

A simpler hypothesis, and one that perhaps Pentagon survivors could validate, is multiple explosive devices in various parts of Wedge One of the Pentagon.

for the High Perps to pull this off, there has to be a semi-plausible explanation. JFK's assassination had lee harvey oswald and his WWI relic italian rifle. "one shooter, acting alone" the Warren Commission decided.

At the Pentagon, substitute "Hani Hanjour and his Hijacked AA77" for "Lee Harvey" -- "one plane, one swath of destruction" -- and of course Purdue University did a computer simulation to 'prove it' -- and the 9/11 Commission, and the Press, simply ignored the data and issues that do not fit the "one fanatical muslim pilot" explanation.


I don't know much about explosives or thermobaric devices. but, at the Pentagon, many the first impressions were of cordite and bombs:

"A bomb had gone off. I could smell the cordite. I knew explosives had been set off somewhere" Don Perkal
"Most people knew it was a bomb" John Bowman
"It smelled like cordite, or gun smoke" Gilah Goldsmith
"I knew it was a bomb or something" Mike Slater

--------------------------
Yes, there are witnesses and survivors that testify to "jet fuel" as well. I merely say that "there's a hell of a lot more happening in the Pentagon than just a debate of plane strike vs flyover"

Terrance Kean, 35, who lives in a 14-story building nearby, heard the loud jet engines and glanced out his window.

"I saw this very, very large passenger jet," said the architect, who had been packing for a move. "It just plowed right into the side of the Pentagon...."

What can we conclude from the mass of contradictory eyewitness accounts?

1) there was a flying object near the pentagon, plane-like, and to many, appeared to be commercial passenger sized -- like a 757. some saw AA logo. some saw windows.... some saw orange stripes...

2) some witnesses felt, or were even sure, that the flying object crashed into the pentagon (some less so, maybe it disappeared, or flew over, or "melted into the building" Jamie Macintrye was fairly sure there was "no evidence of a crash anywhere near the pentagon"

3) there is near-universal agreement on the TIME of the flying object's appearance - NOT BEFORE 9:37, and definitely by 9:48am.
The FDR from AA77 fixes it at 9:37am. So does the 9/11 commission.

4) Despite the hijinks and confusion about the E ring impact, fire, and where the big plane went (no one can find it on the lawn)

--- a different event took place BEFORE the flyhing object --

Clocks at the Pentagon stoppped at 9:30-9:32 am. Even Al Gonzales admits it -- the Pentagon Attack took place at 9:30am. CNN reported the fire. As to where, exactly inside the Pentagon - that is less clear.


However, there are reports in the news of fire and death in the B ring, near the courtyard, as well as C and D rings.

Were there really 2 major pentagon events?

9:30am - explosives damage smoke fire
9:37am -- flying object and/or impact, fire on E ring, smokey generator fire

Hmm.

Yes. It is interesting that "there are reports in the news of fire and death in the B ring"

Indeed.

But I did not knew that there is a tunnel under the Pentagon:
...
Because the access tunnel leading underneath the Pentagon to the inside courtyard was only 10-foot 2-inch high, many of the towers and ladder trucks that were to go to the courtyard to put water on the roof were too tall to fit through the tunnel. Therefore, some of these apparatus had their roofs cut off so that they would fit through the tunnel. While the first and second alarms were attacking the fire from the exterior of the outer ring, at 1:25 pm, the third alarm units proceeded through the tunnel into the inner courtyard. The idea was to attack the fire from inside the Pentagon, pushing it from the unburned areas back into the burnt areas.

What we found when we entered the inner courtyard was unbelievable. Large groups of military and emergency room doctors were milling about waiting for survivors to be brought out of the building. Parts of the airplane and building were thrown about the courtyard and marked with evidence flags. FBI and other federal officials were walking around conducting their investigation. Members of the military were standing by at a makeshift morgue with body bags waiting for the fires to be put out so that search-and-rescue crews could go in and recover bodies of the victims. Over 35 agencies responded to the Pentagon that day.
...

pentagon.spacelist.org/
(yellow line is tunnel)

What is said about the courtyard remaind me of this:



Pentagon_MASCAL

:blink:

Does the Gravy train have an explanation for this yet?

Apparently Raven does.

Raven has also stated he is going to "debunk" Dom's interview of Susan McElwein.

What would the movement do without people like that?

What a marvelous contribution that post was Craig..

You blaming other people for having 'explanations' is as rich as its gonna get.

I don't get what you mean.

Raven felt compelled to insinuate that I was "crazy" instead of directly commenting on the OP.


Apparently that is his explanation.

And you disagree with him? Where was a plane crash near the Pentagon on 9/11? I htought there was a plane crash inside the Pentagon and not near it? isn't that what Jamie said "not near"?

What does your little disingenuous word game have to do with the fact that casualties were reported in the B ring?

I'm glad you think asking a question about someones usage of a word is disingenuous. I am sure others don't exactly share your views.

What is disingenuous is pretending you don't understand the relevance of the fact that no significant aircraft wreckage was visible outside the building.

I'm sure there are "other" jrefers who don't share this view but this is the LCF and Jamie McIntyre's comment was featured in LC.

I thought you were accusing me of being disingenuous about words..my god man, do you have any attention span?

My attention span is fine.

I'm sorry to hear that you have trouble with the English language.

Wait a sec...your the guy that said disingenuous with words than changed to wreckage then back to words. You are making people dizzy :)

Uh-huh.

Don't try to think to hard, no doubt you will strain something.

OK, I'll explain what I meant. Using the picture that you posted, you can see the C ring on the left and the B ring on the right...



Do you see any damage to the B ring on the right?

Is it possible that the report is wrong and could have actually been refering to the D ring? It's quite possible that they had the rings backwards in their labeling logic, and made a simple mistake.

That's crazy, huh?

Yeah perhaps that is the case, perhaps not.

But you still insisted on antagonizing me by insinuating that I was "crazy" for questioning this report.

Which means you also insinuated Dylan was crazy for it.

Have you finished your "debunk" of Susan McElwain's interview yet?

Perhaps you can have it included in Screw LCFC.

No ad hom attacks from Craig. Craig says so.

1) Marine major quoted
2) was at meeting in A ring -"innermost"
3) 'rushed to B ring'
4) "hundreds of people worked in B ring" quoted twice
5) Pentagon employees, marine, etc personnel, would know the building.


text from WashPOst
Another Pentagon employee, a 37-year-old Marine major, said he was at a meeting in the innermost A Ring when he heard a thud and felt the building shudder. He and his colleagues rushed to help rescue people from an area that appeared most heavily damaged, the B Ring between corridors 4 and 5.

"From two-star Army generals to Marine officers, to Navy medics and petty officers, to Army officers and civilian contractors, everybody helped," said the sweaty, exhausted major, who was wearing a bloodstained T-shirt and carrying a face mask, as he took a break from rescue efforts.

The major, who declined to give his name, said he was part of a group that extricated a civilian pinned down by fallen pipes, chunks of wall and other debris. To keep from being overwhelmed by the hot, thick, black smoke, the rescuers passed wet T-shirts to one another to protect their faces as they removed the debris in an assembly-line fashion.

"It took 30 men 30 minutes to get just that one guy to the door 15 feet away," the major said, adding that the man appeared to have suffered cuts and bruises. He said that hundreds of people worked in the B Ring area and that it was "decimated."

"That heat and fire, it could eat you alive in three seconds," he said.

Are there any known B ring survivors?

How about C ring survivors?

whoa.... stop the presses.


'go back to Raven's posted photo of A-E drive showing the wet surface, firemen, and the "exit hole/punch out"

WTF is that OTHER fire-burned hole to the left, up the A-E drive? a second part of C-ring burned out by fire or explosions?

Certainly we can conclude that if the hole in the C ring wall was made kinetically, ie by part of a heavy fast moving object, such as part of the plane, the nose cone, the landing gear, as has been alleged, the air between the C ring wall and B ring wall could not have slowed it down much -- but where are the marks on the opposite B ring wall>

Raven, on his own, has already made a great contribution -- that damage, fire, or deaths in the B ring were NOT caused by the same kinetic or explosive disruption that damaged the E and D rings.

Therefore we must look to a non-plane cause of B ring fire and death -- whether you believe a plane hit the building, or not -- now we are getting some where.

Thanks Raven.

so, there are TWO separate fire-marked holes.

one is round, and has been called an "exit hole" -- but is not twinned with damage on the B-side wall.

the second looks like a double door or a wide window or rollup doors. fire emanated from it , burned upwards.

nowhere visible is matching B ring damage.

Therefore, Raven's deductions give more credence to the Barbara Hongger-proposed theory, supported by independent lines of evidence (clocks, cordite, sounds, etc) of multiple incendiary explosive devices in various parts of Pentagon.

Whether or not you buy into the plane-hit-pentagon or plane-flew-over -- can anyone ascribe the cause of damage to the B-ring?

So what caused it?

We have an interview with a B ring survivor who was directly across from the C-ring hole and said he saw fire through a window.

Actually, it does to the 757 story the exact same thing that 'controlled demolition of the WTC' does to the 767s stories.

You can say it undermines it if you want.

How do you figure that?

No he didn't and Dylan didn't take it that way either.

Well, if I told you there was ground level or below-ground level damage to the WTC that is very hard to relate to a plane impact does that necessarily compute into no-plane to you?

Probably not. But the same logic applied to the pentagon has you labeled a jrefer, a govt loyalist or whatever... <_<

You along with your clique of flyover pimps have been taking shots at me, Russell, and other people for months now because of that nonsense.

Obviously you missed the point.

Raven was being his typical antagonistic self for no reason whatsoever.

I know perfectly well he meant it towards me alone but it was unjustified as usual.

Why are you defending him for it?

What does it compute to you? Explosives?

The damage to the lower levels of the Towers wasn't done to simulate damage from a plane.

You have taken your own shots.

I'm not. I'm correcting an incorrect statement you not only made but just admitted was wrong.

If we knew perfectly well it was meant towards you alone why bring Dylan into it??

And I love the defending him question. Wasn't there enough of this last week??

Raven was spoke to as well. However a false statement was posted publicly and therefor was corrected publicly.

I was calling the assessment and the news report crazy, not Craig.

Nor Dylan.

Obviously.

B Ring at the Pentagon would seem to fit that category too.

Its a strectch to expect the media to separate this incident from the plane crash on sept 12 though.

Untill proven otherwise they werent based on a logical fallacy.