When I heard of the dreadful aircrash in Brazil the first thing I looked for in the TV coverage was for any wreckage of the aircraft outside the petrol station it crashed into. Sure enough, a light weight petrol station - no where near as solid as the Pentagon - caused parts of the plan to remain outside.
The tail is clearly seen. The craft could not penetrate it.

So as bad as the loss of life is in this crash. It does serve to add weight to the belief that no jetliner crashed into the Pentagon on 911 (which we all know anyway...)

Nuff said.

Now without getting into a Pentagon debate cause there's enough of those threads. I have one question if you're going to to say why did this happen here and not at the Pentagon. How fast was this plane going at impact??

Having read the story this plane was coming in for landing which means it was doing nowhere near the reported speed of Flight 77. Thus this does not serve to add weight to the belief that no jetliner crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11.

Hi.
You my have a point. But I'd like you to consider this (not that I want to get into a heated debate any more than you do).

But. While the alleged plane that hit the Pentagon on 911 was going much faster, it would have hit a building that was more solidly constructed than a petrol station.

So while the speed of both aircraft could be pointed to as a differing factor, so to is the construction of the buildings. A petrol station in Brazil is more likely to be constructed of single walls and a metal / tin roof - perhaps with a light steel frame. But no where near as solid or as robust as the Pentagon.

So perhaps the point you raise is cancelled out by the construction of the buildings.

That is true. The construction has to be accounted for as well. So maybe there are ways to compare it a bit. Believe me I'm no supporter of the OCT .

do not believe a plane hit the pentagon

As the happenings unfold the videos of the Congonhas accident are available in the net, please check this video of the crash:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGmMSdUSijA

Notice the speed of the Airbus.

Much higher than the first airliner landing.

Did you check the debris? It is perfectly visible parts of the airplane and plenty of firemen carrying body bags with corpses! It is said in the media that temperatures were around 1000 celsius (1832 ºF) :blink:

This temperatures didn't vaporize the bodies of the 170 passengers and you can see plenty - I repeat - plenty of airplane parts and burned corpses.

Photos taken from the "Folha de São Paulo" newspaper:




Two persons survived:

One of them is called Ubiratam Carvalho Ribeiro and you can see him in the last photo:

The plane that alledgedly hit the Pentagon was on full throttle.

What speed was this plane going at?

I would say it's pretty hard to draw any conclusions here - so many different parameters.

Well... that's true...

According to the Brazilian media the flight 3054 was running at a speed around 103 miles (166 km/h) when skidded out of the track. That's quite different from the alleged Pentagon jet.

It is not known. Flight data recorder were being sent to the U.S. for study.

But it seems that it could be fast (Not on full throttle though)

And some Media papers are saying that the plane was 3 or 4 time faster on the runway than normal plane in landing... based on video (and that is also surprising, the security camera cached it !) ... but it hold no water, because normal planes are going slower and slower... but this plane was most likely going faster and faster because it looks as "For some reason, the plane did not slow down. Something happened and the pilot, for some reason, accelerated the plane."
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070719/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane_crash

But about it all... then it is striking to me that it was a huge fire (and the plane was likely going fast)... and one can clearly see that a plane crashed there. A lot of debris, bodys etc.

Ok. I have not see that.

And when I was talking about 3 or 4 time faster... then I was talking from the reports in some MSM yesterday which said "The new video footage shows some of the final moments of the Tam Airlines flight from the southern city of Porto Alegre and another similar plane which had arrived earlier.

It shows the first aircraft apparently taking 11 seconds to travel along the runway, while the plane that crashed covers the same distance in three."
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6905499.stm

Well... some time ago I had to log off because of a storm just above my house but here I am!

More than the speed of the impact - still under investigation in the United States - is the inferno around this crash. It took more than 24 hours to extinguish the fire. The result?

All the bodies were recovered, the flight data recorders recovered almost immediately, there are huge parts of the airplane visible in spite of being burned in unbelievable temperatures...

What we got in all the flights of 9/11? Is there any photo showing dead bodies, showing pieces of the fuselage, seats or even the tale of the airliner?

Have you noticed how the buildings around collapsed and burned?



Observe the hole left in one of the walls of the cargo building were the airplane crashed:





One of the engines of the airplane. Compare the size of it with the cargo truck.






A car was dragged when the airplane overflight the motorway next to the airport. A taxi driver had his car cut in two when the back part was hit by the aircraft. The chaos in the road caused accidents.





Another victim in a body bag

Ok. This is the first time I see a pic of the engine ... and interesting about the car. I have not heard that before.

More it comes:

Engine





Tail Section






Landing Gear





Landing Gear 2





Fireman picks up personal objects from the wreckage.

Quote (QUOTE (John Nada)

"More than the speed of the impact - still under investigation in the United States - is the inferno around this crash. IT TOOK MORE THAN 24 HOURS TO EXTINGUISH THE FIRE"

Interesting remark. One needs much time to burn an important quantity of fuel.

Recall about the crash of a Boeing 757 in shanksville, with 5,500 gallons of jet fuel still on board:

http://killtown.911review.org/flight93.html

A hole in the ground but no plane, NO SMOKE, NO FIRE.

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-90...earch&plindex=8

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=532...earch&plindex=5

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=555...earch&plindex=0

I believe the trust reversers wern't deployed in time or malfuctioned. The runway was wet to and from animations it looks like the palne could have hydroplaned.

Yes. OK. But unbelivenble to see all the huge debris... engine etc.

But how fast do you think the plane was on the runway ? 200 mph, 300 mph ?

...but it is ofcource hard to estemate. Better to wait for the NTSB to analyse the data.

But the runway is on some kind of a hill... and when the plane exited the runway... it looks as it takes off and fly above the road etc... so, it must be some speed.

Yes that's right, according to some sources the pilot tried to take off again but didn't succeed. The speed was not enough so the Airbus overflight the motorway touching and dragging some cars with the landing gears to finally explode in some kind of cargo warehouse.

In front of this warehouse there was a Royal Dutch Shell petrol station and shop. This petrol station exploded violently adding even more fuel to the fire but...

...the dead bodies and the data recorders - in spite of this ocean of flaming petrol - were discovered by the rescue teams!!!

One of the wing land gears was projected and finished inside the room of some old couple, fortunately nobody was there at the moment.

The families of the victims went immediately to Congonhas airport and there are available all over the internet plenty of photos of them.

The families had psychological support and a special line was created to help people looking for their loved ones. Took only 10 or 11 hours do determine that a Portuguese citizen was in the flight.

There is also available CCTV videos from Congonhas airport.

The Pentagon strike, in the very heart of the capital of the United States of America, the core of the industrial military complex, had only one single lousy camera to show to the world the supposed aircraft - as big as this Airbus - exploding? Till today such an accident happening in the most powerful country in the world has only one single footage? :lol:

This means that before 9/11 somebody could freely take a rocket launcher or going around naked - like those dudes in the Bohemian Grove - around the Pentagon and eventually not being seen? :D

This Brazilian airport of Congonhas is quite poor comparing to Rio de Janeiro or Sao Paulo airports but... we can watch CCTV footage of this crash in the Youtube after 24 hours.

Yes. It ofcource makes no sense at all.

But about the speed... then the Airbus A320 take of speed is 170 mph... so it was maybe not so high speed.

But "John Nada" thank you for all the informations... it was all very interesting.

Slowing down, probably around 140-50 kts. As the pilot tried to execute a go around, he was probably below rotation and below V1. He was not full gross either. By the time he realized they were out of runway and a touch and go would be required, he retracted the trust reverse too late leaving at most 1,000 foot a runway, proabably around 700ft. he figured he still must have enough airspeed to make the takeoff and took the chance, either way they were screwed. Once he got off the end of the runway, it does slope down so he probably picked up a few more kts. All in all, I don't think they were above 200kts at any given time.

That whole thing is my guess, I really have no idea, NTSB will have to tell.

Despite issues over speed, there is clear evidance of a crash. Parts, people, no one was vapourised. Plus fuel from the petrol station helped make the fire last longer. I wonder if the petrol station is still standing - or did it collapse as a result of jetfuel being ignited.
I hope this accident is not too late to be included in the last version of Loose Change.

Wow, talk about hypocracy.

Hi. I think it best if you can restrain yourself to staying on topic.

You can't totally disregard the speed of the aircraft then.

Speed is important, no two ways about it.

I think you are getting too bogged down in th speed of the plane in Brazil. When what you should be looking at is the general concept that a plane crashed into a petrol station and then:
A. Many parts of the plane survived 24 hours of fire and the impact itself
B. Bodies survived the inferno and the crash
C. The petrol station still stands.
D. The petrol station did not collapse on itself

Whether you compare the Brazillian crash to the Pentagon theory or Flight 93 where no wreckage was found at all - then there are clear anomalies. And we don't need any official report to tell us this. We ony have to use our eyes and common sense.

Well, higher speeds will result in less wreckage and/or smaller peices and more scattered peices to add. I do agree that wiht what you are saying, but you HAVE to factor in the speed.

Extract:

"Well, higher speeds will result in less wreckage and/or smaller peices and more scattered peices to add. I do agree that wiht what you are saying, but you HAVE to factor in the speed."

For flight 93, it does not lack only the pieces of the airplane, but also the fire and the smoke.

In this image:

http://killtown.911review.org/images/flight93/crater_ap.jpg

One can note that the grass is not even burned around a crater of a few meters.

Look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIv7AQrhZe4

And observe the volume of the flames of the plane which hit the south tower at high speed.

And for this B52 which was crushed on the ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUEhNKBi4DY

Flight 93 was said to have crashed with 5,500 gallons of jet fuel still on board.

http://killtown.911review.org/flight93.html

What is it occurred of this jet fuel? Also look at this video (34 minutes and 50 seconds after its beginning) :

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=8097952875248011643

Um... yes. After I have thought about it, I agree. It is unlikely to be over over 200.

But most interesting to me is the engine, this huge engine. Unbelivenble. I mean... was this engine in fire ? And also that at yahoo news and bbc and cnn etc... they did not show a engine pic (or I have not seen it)

The main question in this accident is the wreck itself.

I found quite surprising to see a briefcase in the hands of a fireman moreover it's visible some chairs and plenty of metal and cables.

Another thing is the wreck. It will be taken to some hangar in order to rebuilt the airplane. Was it done the same in the US after 9/11? It seems that the debris of WTC are now in the shape of cutlery... :angry:

The TAM Airbus accident isn't finished yet...

New developments:

According to the newspaper "Folha online" 110 victims were already positively identified:

- All the families of the passengers will receive money from the insurance from TAM though the amount wasn't decided yet.

- The flight data recorder was already listened and accurately investigated in the USA.

I found quite interesting the following statement which prove beyond reasonable doubt that if 9/11 attacks were exactly as the official story said the CIA and the Pentagon would be glad to shovel up the asses of those so called conspirators - among them myself - this data from the flight recorders as well as the footage of all the 84 cameras in D.C. and the others in New York city.

They didn't.

The press didn't give a fuck to go investigate or at least to give voice to those who didn't accepted their version of the happenings!


In Folha online 29/07/07:

Translation:

The Brigadier said that the flight data recorders registered at least 580 parameters (data such as duration, speed and altitude of the aircraft), but Aeronautica (Brazilian institute responsible for airplanes and airspace) will work only with 60 parameters. "Since each parameter takes around four hours to be compiled, we choose the 60 main parameters, giving us conditions to proceed with the investigations. If we reach the conclusion that they were not sufficient, nothing is stopping us from retrieving new parameters, he stated.

Moreover the Brazilian institute investigating aircrashes C.I.P.A.A. declared through Jorge Kersul Filho that the possible cause for this crash was a problem in the throttle control lever (I have no idea how you call it in English B) ).


This was obtained observing the wreckage of the airbus. The pilot cabin was not so destroyed that the controls and levers melted of disintegrate...

When accessing the wreckage of the cabin a fireman said:

Translation:

In the back part of the building of TAM Express, two huge bags were lying in the floor, containing the wrecks of the Airbus pilot cabin. Inside of it, according to the Fire Department, it was found besides bodies fragments, a laptop, wallets, sport shoes and other objects belonging to the victims.



Helping even more the investigation of this accidents and comparing them do the 9/11 flights do a research about the GOL tragedy - flight 1907 - in Brazil the 29 September 2006.

A Boeing 737-800 from the GOL airlines collided in mid-air with a private executive jet model Embraier Legacy 600 (article in Wikipedia about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transport...eos_Flight_1907 )

This airplane was flying at 37,000 feet when the collision happened. One of the wings and the tail sections were wrecked. Due the violence of the collision the aircraft started falling at high speed in vortex and broke in several pieces while doing it - it was still possible to observe plenty of parts of the GOL airliner such as this:




The flight data recorder was found thanks to a metal detector because it was buried deeply in the dirt:



In Brazil is quite common to show extremely violent images of dead bodies so if any of you has the stomach to see what happens to the body of somebody victim of such terrible accidents just Google it in images search but... if you're sensitive just don't do it.

Please don't talk nonsense in public.

Shanksville (and there are many more) :

There is in fact debris in flight 93 but what is indeed enigmatic is the quality of it.

Seems to be some kind of pile of trash more than anything else.

Comparing to the debris spread all over the US after the 1986 Space Shuttle tragedy.






NASA proudly showing how good boys they are and how efficient they work... when they are told to do it... <_<



Moreover the ground research for debris and bodies was conducted by thousands of people dressed this way:



Apart from the funny yellow engineer helmets - or whatever you call - there's nothing to do with the apparently radioactive protection uniforms those guys have here: