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Title: The Dune Tarot
Description: Is It Available?

Edric - September 2, 2005 11:37 AM (GMT)
The Dune Tarot is mentioned several times in Dune Messiah but has anyone [Fan or Business] tried to create it?

While looking for information on the net about Tarots I came across this site. . . . . . .

There are 22 cards in the Major Arcana Tarot. Below is the list of the 22 cards, But what do you think the cards would be called in the Dune Tarot? and would there be 22 cards or more/less of them?

0 The Fool
1 The Magician
2 The High Priestess
3 The Empress
4 The Emperor
5 The Hierophant
6 The Lovers
7 The Chariot
8 Strength
9 The Hermit
10 The Wheel of Fortune
11 Justice
12 The Hanged Man
13 Death
14 Temperance
15 The Devil
16 The Tower
17 The Star
18 The Moon
19 The Sun
20 Judgement
21 The World

Crysknife - September 2, 2005 03:46 PM (GMT)
I've heard of several people making them for personal sets but I don't remember if they ever posted pictures.....I'll have to do some research and see if I can find where I saw them.

bene tleilax\\jeffaria - September 2, 2005 08:02 PM (GMT)
thats a good question.. i have a deck of tarrot and can read pretty well... but Dune Tarrot..we should come up with some ideas for cards, it would be cool to see what everyone comes up with...great idea edric

Edric - September 4, 2005 11:49 AM (GMT)
I've tried looking for Dune Tarots using google but so far all I've found is this at the Landraad site..........

Freakzilla - September 6, 2005 01:04 PM (GMT)
Frank Herbert and Dr. McNelly on the Dune Tarot:

FH: Ah so. (Laughter) But I was raised with Japanese Americans in the Pacific Northwest in an area where there were a great many of them, let's put it that way.
WM: Yes.
FH: Aplace called Fyfe between Seattle and Tacoma and…
WM: That's up near glorious Tunwater. (Laughter)
FH: Yes, it's north of Tunwater. (Laughter) Ah, an Oly fan…if I'd known, I would have brought in a mess of beer. By the way, we have another wine in there. Would you like…?
WM: No, I'm going to stick to coffee for a while, thanks. I'll be up all night reading, but then, what difference does it make.
FH: Well, anyway, I was raised with them, and eat in Japanese and I know a few phrases.
WM: Yes. I learned quite a…(tape paused)…
WM: … well, you were speaking of your writing plans for the future. You say the sequel to "Dune" will be out this fall sometime?
FH: Or earlier.
WM: Or earlier.
FH: Possibly in October, possibly earlier. There's some question of I requested that it be moved up a bit and I'm not sure that everyone's in agreement and maybe that's best…I mean I'm not…
WM: Yes.
FH: I just thought it would be a better idea for several reasons to publish it earlier. One of the reasons is that I have built a Dune Tarot into the sequel.
WM: Do that one again?
FH: You know what the Tarot deck is?
WM: Oh, of course, yes.
FH: Ok.
WM: Oh, I've missed that.
FH: I built a Dune Tarot into it and it's hot right now.
WM: Yes.
FH: And I was just thinking economically they ought to capitalize on it.
WM: Oh, sure, why not. A Dune Tarot. Well. See, I teach Yeats and Eliot and so on…
FH: Of course, yes.
WM: In fact, I-I own my own private deck.
FH: Yes. WE have one. It's my contention that if you immerse a society in a great deal of what we call fortune telling, you know, that you cloud the whole process…you see what happened in classic times in Greek myth…historic times, when the oracle was…had terrifying accuracy.
WM: The Oedipus cycle for example.
FH: There weren't a lot of oracles around. You went to Delphi.
WM: Delphi, right.
FH: Or to the local madman.
WM: Yes. Look at the birds and cast a few auguries here and there.
FH: Yes. Who might have…might kill a chicken and look at the entrails.
WM: Or note which way the blood spurts.
FH: That's right. Any one of these methods, which I call ignition principles as far as prediction is concerned. You see, I contend that there is such a thing…that you can do it, whether you do it by a subliminal thing…petit perception, or whether it is a…
WM: You use the petit perception in that scene in the conservatory, incidentally. I thought it was rather well done. With…Countess…Fenring?
FH: That's right.
WM: Leaving that thing for Lady Jessica to pick up, end parenthesis.
FH: Yes, that's right. That's…well, whether our predictive faculties are prophecy…and we've had our prophets…is a product of an accumulation of…in a sense of a computer is accumulating data.
WM: Yes.
FH: Or something mystical in a sense that it is unexplained thus far…unexplained…I'm looking at it through Western eyes now as you'll undoubtedly see…that…that it is a mechanical scientific principle and if you get enough data to bear on it, you'll understand it. Now this doesn't necessarily follow, of course, that we can understand everything in the universe. Ask me about…what is the basic about what I think is the basic fallacy in science.
WM: All right. What is the basic fallacy in science, tell us, pray tell! (Laughter)
FH: You want a prognostication. Ok. You know, I think…I think it's the idea that we can invent… that of course, science fiction is based on this…the idea that…that we can invent anything we imagine, and having invented it, we must use it…
WM: And then live by the consequences of it.
FH: Exactly. Yes. Now, this is the Western…see, this is the Western fallacy.
WM: And this is one of the great things about the east…that it does not…
FH: Yes, of course we frown on it because the achieve their ignition by…by methods that we can see are hogwash.
WM: Right. And…or we misinterpret their methods, for example…if we were to consider, say, the tantric yoga, all we would think of is that they're achieving nirvana by means of sex, and it's much more than that.
FH: Yes.
WM: Or, as…as one specific example, we…we take only one aspect of it, and make sort of an end out of it…
FH: Or, hell, then you go back to the…the slitting the neck of the chicken and watching which direction the blood spurts.
WM: Yes.
FH: You see, you see…what I'm saying about ignition.
WM: U-huh.
FH: This ignites the…you see, you have to have confidence that you can do it…you have to believe you can do it, and believing you can do it, the process is ignited by any one of a million methods. We've experimented with many…the direction the birds fly or any of this, you see.
WM: Well, I had a student a few years ago who…whose wife was so accurate with the Tarot deck that…that she stopped using it completely.
FH: I must tell you something.
WM: She frightened herself.
FH: I terrified a gal one time in a weird…I was about seventeen. We were sitting in her aunt's house and her aunt and an uncle were out of sight, but within hearing distance, down in some (…) in their library. It was nearby and we were sitting across the…from each other on hassocks, the mouth of the fireplace, a big stone fireplace, between us, down to embers. We'd been out on a date, and I brought her home. We didn't have anything going…we…she was just a gal I knew. I happened to have had a crush on her younger sister, and she knew it, and…ah, unrequited love at seventeen is hideous thing.
ALL: (Laughter)
WM: Oh, yes!
FH: Anyway, that was a…it was great upsurge of Rhine consciousness at the time.
WM: Yes.
FH: Predicting the cards…of course, our interpretation of predicting the cards, was, you know…we had only one kind of cards, that was a deck of cards.
WM: Sure.
FH: So she broke out a brand new deck of cards and shuffled them. We'd been talking about it on the way home and…quite shadowy in the room…there was the firelight and Pat was sitting across the fireplace and the light from where.…her aunt and uncle were playing cribbage in the back in there, both of them deaf, by the way… you hear this (Falsetto) Fifteen two and two is four (Laughter). Counting…
WM: (Falsetto) A pair of sex.
FH: Yes, that's right. So there was a light from back in there and so she could see the cards, and she said, see if you can predict the cards. And she had been shuffling them, so she picked up the first card, and I closed my eyes, and I saw that card. And so I told her…that was it. She put it down. That was the card. I swear to you, Will, I went through that entire deck, predicting every card that she was going to see, and there wasn't a failure at all. I told her every card. I did it the same every time. Now, whether I saw a reflection in her eyes…in other words, we'll go back to petit perception.
WM: Yes.

I have seen Dune Tarot decks for sale online but you have to hunt for them really hard.

orald - September 6, 2005 01:33 PM (GMT)
So, is FH saying he could predict cards, and, actually, the future?

Freakzilla - September 6, 2005 01:37 PM (GMT)
I think he was saying anyone could do it, expecially if the people involved believe in it.

I believe that conversation was a transcription from the volumes of cassette tapes that FH and Dr M made at FH's house. I got it from that Russian Dune site.

Edric - September 6, 2005 07:08 PM (GMT)
Is that conversation between Frank Herbert and Dr. McNelly from the Dune Encyclopedia?

Ginaz_Swordmaster - September 12, 2005 03:33 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Edric @ Sep 6 2005, 11:08 AM)
Is that conversation between Frank Herbert and Dr. McNelly from the Dune Encyclopedia?

Yes sir, the one(s) and only(s).

So just because I'm lame, I'll tell you some stuff to culture you about Western Washington. Fife is a small town just north of Tacoma. It has a wood pulp mill that emits huge odors that basically make the entire area within a 15 mile radius smell like horrid, god-awful car emissions. It also has a ridiculous amount of car dealerships, all right next to the freeway. That's about all there is that matters in Fife. The glorious Tumwater thing, if you hadn't figured it out, is about beer. There is an old brewery that makes a beer called Oly (because Tumwater is basically a suburb of the capital, Olympia). I'm not sure if that brewery still operates, but I feel like it doesn't. Or if it does it got bought out by Budweiser or something. Anyway, those are all within a fairly short drive from my school, so that's exciting.

Edric - September 12, 2005 02:37 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ginaz_Swordmaster @ Sep 12 2005, 04:33 AM)
There is an old brewery that makes a beer called Oly (because Tumwater is basically a suburb of the capital, Olympia). I'm not sure if that brewery still operates, but I feel like it doesn't. Or if it does it got bought out by Budweiser or something.

If Budweiser has bought it out I doubt what they are making is any good. :(

Freakzilla - September 12, 2005 03:44 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Edric @ Sep 6 2005, 07:08 PM)
Is that conversation between Frank Herbert and Dr. McNelly from the Dune Encyclopedia?

No, it's a transcription of cassette recording interview by McNelly made at FH's home.

It's 46 pages.

Edric - September 12, 2005 03:49 PM (GMT)
Wow thanks for the link Freak. :D

Ginaz_Swordmaster - September 13, 2005 07:59 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Freakzilla @ Sep 12 2005, 07:44 AM)
No, it's a transcription of cassette recording interview by McNelly made at FH's home.

Sorry, I thought ol' Edric was asking if the person was the Dr. McNelly from the Dune Encyclopedia, not asking if the conversation was from the Dune Encyclopedia. Sorry for the mix-up. ;)

letoII - October 3, 2005 02:24 AM (GMT)
Well a Dune card game sounds interesting maybe I'll look into it... (I think FH can see into the future...)

Edric - January 30, 2006 05:29 PM (GMT)
To make this thread more relevant to the book discussion I'd thought I'd ask you guys what your oppinions are on the Tarot in the book?

It is suggested that the introduction of the Tarot was a deliberate thing but as far as I recall I don't think it is ever mentioned as to who was responsible for it's creation. The obvious suspects I would think would be the Bene Gesserit but another equally vaild accusation could be made against the spice sensative Fremen who were at the time of Dune Messiah going through a period of upheval and transition just as Arrakis was. So what are your thoughts? Was the creation of the Tarot deliberate or was it just spontanious and random?

Freakzilla - January 30, 2006 05:39 PM (GMT)
I think it was random. The Fremen were extremely superstitious and something like the Tarot would naturally appeal to them.

I don't think it was spread intentionally by Paul's enimies because it clouds the future for everyone, not just Paul.

You're right, it's not said who was spreading it, at least not in DM.

Edric - January 30, 2006 05:45 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Freakzilla @ Jan 30 2006, 05:39 PM)
I don't think it was spread intentionally by Paul's enimies because it clouds the future for everyone, not just Paul.

What about an enemy that didn't rely on prescience? The few Harkonnen survivors? Feyd's daughter would be in her early twenties by the time of DM? And what about Count Fenring working for House Corrino? both are viable options, even though I have to admit just as highly unlikely.

Freakzilla - January 30, 2006 05:53 PM (GMT)
Everyone wants to be like their god, I don't think it needed to be spread.

The Fremen were selling it outside Alia's Temple as suveniers!

Edric - January 30, 2006 05:58 PM (GMT)
The Tarot also raises another question in my mind . . .

Muad'Dib's visions were affected by the Tarot, I think at one point even RM Mohaim admits the Tarot isn't clear to her. So where does that leave the Guild? they are dependant not only on the spice but the prescient abilities they gain from taking the spice, so if the Tarot affects prescients shouldn't it also have affected them?

And while typing the above the Tlielaxu have come to the forefront of my list of possible suspects! Think about their own experience of their own KH! The Tarot could have been their way of dealing with Paul and Alia.

Freakzilla - January 30, 2006 06:07 PM (GMT)
I wouldn't put it past the BT.

I don't think the prescience required to ensure the safe passage of a hieghliner was in the same ballpark as Paul and Alia.

As Scytale so eloquently put it to Edric, "You toddle where they stride."

They only needed to see to the next instant after they turned on the Holtzmann generators to see if they were still alive.

orald - January 30, 2006 10:21 PM (GMT)
I believe that while it's possible it started naturally, it was deliberately spread afterwards by the Fremen plotters agains Paul. I don't know, but I think there's some mention of it somewhere, maybe in CoD. 0_o

Edric - April 6, 2007 02:09 AM (GMT)
I've never stopped searching the net for a Dune Tarot and finaly I've found a partial Dune Tarot! Im not sure if this is from the Dune Encyclopedia and I hope it isn't.

I hope you enjoy it . . . Dune Tarot Link

Hypatia - April 6, 2007 04:51 AM (GMT)
Nope, these are not from the Dune Encyclopedia. However, they are from the Lynch movie.

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