I've reported Artha as a Canon Sue on livejournal.

Link: http://www.livejournal.com/community/canon...744.html#cutid1

It's a good community; they've nailed a lot of annoying characters from Drizzt to Pamela to the mother Mary-Sue of them all, Ayla.

Yes, I can see that. :)

GRRrrr

Sarah I've got a few bone's to pick with you

Well, I don't think that community allows anonymous posters. So check if it does; if it does then feel free to comment on said entry, and if it doesn't then pick the bone over here. Believe me, I'm quite open to disagreement.

Oh, and your bone's WHAT?

Quite a number of things

Anonymou posters aren't allowed on the community, so you'll just have to debate it here.

So, just what are your "number of things"? Please, spell them out. I'm sorry, but I can't read minds. I also have an interest in being right. So, if you think I'm wrong, then prove it and I'll accept it.

(I'll return tomorrow to debate further.)

Forget about it...


By the way, I'm not an anonyumus, It's Natasha, from the AL MB

This is where I get to say:

We don't know what happened to Connor Penn, although it seems obvious to me that he's Mortis. Parm returned from the stables and told Artha he had found nothing except the jacket (no body), and there hasn't been a body found yet. Connor isn't dead.

I don't care if you girls scrap, but keep it clean because I will replace all 'Evil Words' with floral garlands, and all personal attacks with streams of Purple Prose dedicated to Moordryd.

HEH :mellow:

I wasn't able to tape those first two eps

did I just make a mistake in chalenging Sarah

Oh, I know who you are, Natasha. It's just that as far as I know you don't have a livejournal account, and thus if you have a problem with my Canon Sue entry you'll have to take it here.

By the way, I don't use naughty words on public messageboards unless I'm discussing something smut-related and have no choice. (Anyway, I think there might be an automatic censorship command in place.) Also, I don't give personal attacks. Unless extreme provocation is given (eg. I felt free to call someone who called me an "idot" an "imbecile" once, in a private email conversation. But enough about me).

To me, stating you have "a bone to pick with me" and then refusing to explain your opinion is an act of a coward. (Not a personal attack--merely an explanation of how a particular act appears to me.) Yes, you will always have a right to possess an opinion, but if you can't explain it then kindly refrain from talking about it on a messageboard forum intended for such debate. I'm quite willing to engage in friendly, impersonal debate--best kind, really--but to do that I'm afraid you'll have to be willing to defend your stance on Artha.

Re Connor, I think I explained the situation adequately in my lj post: his father's disappeared, and he doesn't look for him or even report it. A sixteen-year-old boy shouldn't be trying to look after his ten-year-old brother on his own, unless there is some truly pressing reason--and there doesn't appear to be, and in fact associating with Artha/Dragon Booster is actually going to lead Lance into danger. Not a good strategy, and very selfish. (Parm and Kitt, are, of course, legal in some parts of today's world and mature enough to make their own foolish decisions.)

"did I just make a mistake in chalenging Sarah"--Well, I'll assume you meant "challenging". As a self-inflated egoist I'd say 'yes,' but please please please don't take this as discouraging!

That is something that annoys me. Surely Artha must wonder what happened to his dad?
And shouldn't Parm have somewhere better to sleep than in the stable? :huh:

He probably stays there just to be closer to Artha. (sigh) Selfish little...

(Didn't see that ep, so I really have no idea what you're talking about. Anna says Parm does have a mom...)

Yes, apparently she's a teacher at the tech academy, and told him all about Old City and Dragon Priests.

Thanks. :)

(/spamming)

I DID put down what I wanted to pick with you... but after LF's response I kinda felt like an idiot so I replaced the post with what's there now

Oh, LF doesn't mind friendly debate. Her objection was to personal insults and naughty words. But if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. :) I'll just go on sporking Artha and we can all continue on our merry ways.

Just try not to poke him too much, I'm very fond of Dragon Booster and I'll bite if provoked

So? Go for it, girl. BITE! BITE in the only way you can on the Internet, with dazzling leaps of phrase and logic, with winds of metaphor and whirlwind wit, with deadly shards of Canon Evidence and fine-edged fragments of Subtext!

Defend your Artha, who I think is an irritating prick who should never have been Chosen in the first place by any sensible prophecy!

Because if you don't, I'm going to assume that:
1. You're unconvinced in your own opinions and thus won't debate them.
2. You're afraid of "losing" a debate.
3. A debate isn't within your mental (or other) capacities at present.

Yet, I think that 1 is false, 2 means you're underestimating yourself, and 3 is no doubt false! So go for it, later if not now!

And if you don't stop writing like that I won't be able to write anything

Again, please explain. If something regarding my writing style is offensive to you, tell me so I can remedy it, please. Not telepathic, sorry. :)

what you wrote had me in stitches :lol:

That's nice to know. :)

:lol:

Your an intresting person Sarah

Its hard to know what your going to come out with next...

So, how come Sarah (Who I love very much in a completely straight and non-twisted way) is 'interesting', and I'm just crazy?

...........

*Sniff* :unsure:

I didn't mean to upset you LF :o

You didn't! :)

Don't worry, I have sisters, I'm immune. And yes, I'm the weird one. :D

Your not weird... your my writing friend

Lol! I like weird! :D

OOOKAY

*runs away and hides behind Typhoon*

Me, I like Artha. Not love, but just sorta like. Sure, he is for the most part, a Sue, but at the same time, he has a bunch of personality flaws: Cocky, ego, over-confident, lazy, etc. ;) I don't deny, WHATSOEVER, that he's a Sue, I'm just saying he does have some flaws. :D

Honestly, it's not Artha's speshulness that bugs me, it's his constant add-on of personality flaws, which also leads to the eye-boggling, hair-tearing, "WHY IS HE THE DRAGON BOOSTER ANYWAY IF HE'S SUCH A DAMN JERK?!" :P

The thing about Sues isn't merely that they don't have flaws; it's that they're unrealistic, badly written, and/or get a 'free ride'. They're the characters favoured by the author to an obvious extent.

The long list of possible Sueish qualities, looked at individually, all have flaws.
- Original character playing a starring role. (We'd ALL be lost without original characters.)
- Good looks. (Most characters esp in visual media are at least reasonably attractive.)
- Powers and other speshulness. (HELLO? Why are we writing about this person at all?)

- Often rude to other characters who tend to loathe and torment them. (Bitchiwitch Sues.)
- Always nice to other characters. (Sparklypoo Sues.)

Hold up--contradiction! How can both extremes be Sueish? The answer: Sues are favoured by the author, but just HOW they are favoured by the author varies. The character who is always rude to other characters and yet is presented as witty/sarcastic and understandable due to their dark past is a Sue. (Characters rude to other characters who get penalised for that, on the other hand, are not Sues.) The character who is always nice to other characters and beloved by all is equally a Sue because the way they are presented is ignorant of the reality that universal popularity (except for the eeeeeevul ones!one!) is a logical impossibility.

Ginny Weasley is (according to one particular view) a Sue. Yet the same people who call her a Sue often ALSO call her aggressive, cruel, ignorant and/or rude. Contradiction, you say? Sues have no faults? Nope. If that was the case, then:

"Nobode understod Ravn Dyrk Mydnygyt. She wore only black including her double d bra and nobody in shool talkted to her unless they had too. As Ravyn walked thru the coridors Glandissira the most populor gurl and the meanest to ravn of them all said wot are yu doing here becuz she was the hall monitor and Ravny wasn't aloud to go in that hall unless she had clas. So Ravyn said mind yur own business cuz i'm smarter n you so go sleep with the rest of the futbal teem. Gladisiira turned red and ran away. Ravn kept walking down the corrider with a smll smile on her pail face."

Ignoring the bad writing, we could say: Ravyn/Ravny/Ravn obviously has faults. Look at what's written on the page! She's so nasty to the other girl, and that's not even an intelligent insult. Hence, her faults are stupidity and rudeness.

Actually, as I'm sure you're thinking at this point, those faults are the AUTHOR'S. In the above excerpt, what makes Ravyn a Sue is that the author clearly wants us to like this rude, stupid character. And that's the case with Ginny Weasley too: the character's faults are meant to make her 'look cool', to make the readers say, "she's so feisty! It's kind of cool she randomly attacks people like that." (Note: it's not always clear whether the author's writing to make us adore their lead characters or the author's writing from their limited point of view and will later have them or the readers undergo epiphanies concerning their past faults, but in most cases one can make a pretty good guess.)

And, to get back onto Artha, here's where his qualities make him a Sue. His faults aren't the sort that have actual, lasting consequences for him. (His faults barely last an episode at a time!) His fautls are inconsistently rendered (as Skylii's pointed out, he was chosen as the DB anyway). He's main character we're supposed to like, think is so damn wonderful because (in spite of?) these qualities. We're supposed to laugh when he tries to be witty, approve of Beau's casual bullying on the basis of LOL, understand that he's not supposed to challenge priestly manipulation, think it's perfectly okay that he's in all likelihood going to end up as the unoffical at least dictator of the city, accept him as Savior Figure And Destined King, accept his moral views and that of the priests without bothering to question them. Parm and Kitt follow him unswervingly, Kitt even giving up her career for him. (WONDERFUL example of a female sidekick--not. Take lessons from Sparx.) He has uber powers--given for no reason! I think the powers are what really place him into the category of 'Sue' rather than 'inconsistent, unrealistic character', though.

They could have taken the route of making Artha more like the original legend. Who actually had PROBLEMS that he didn't manufacture himself, who actually had EXTERNAL reasons to struggle rather than the amazing incredible powers he had, who was granted only a special sword and a rapist-king (according to some versions) father, who was a character you could understand as a chosen one, genuinely noble.

Or they could have taken the route of a story which I think is already subtextually there. You have a spoilt teenage boy whose father deliberately engineers him to become very, very powerful. You have a priest who continues to manipulate behind the scenes without showing his face. You have all sorts of questionable goings-on in the service of an incorrectly translated three-thousand-year-old text. You have this moronic teenage boy not understanding what he's supposed to do with all this power, and probably being set up to be a figurehead monarch of the city. You have this one Perfect Saviour Figure being engineered, one Special One working with a small, secret group rather than under democratic consent. (Cf. Ubermensch, dictatorship, other evils.) You have a dragon one half of whose colour scheme has powers of control, and this dragon's also known to be casually rough towards people without thinking of consequences. You have children manipulated, doing this on their own. You have an implied eventual goal to get rid of specialisation/individuality. You have a villain who wants a sentient group enslaved for millennia to fight for their freedom--who's only a villain because he wants to be above them in person.

The trouble is that I see no sign of DB taking any views like this.
- Is Destiny a *****/were the prophecies wrong/have the prophecies led to wrongdoings? Canon: Nope. Mortis was perfectly right to abandon his children and has been forgiven! (Note: I haven't personally seen this canon, but as I understand it this--as I predicted--happened.) Artha of COURSE is the right Destined Hero! Who cares about his faults!
- Is Mortis a highly morally dubious manipulator? Nope, no sign on screen.
- Does it matter that any of the characters have significant faults/problems? (Not questioning authority, their faults actually having consequences, etc.) Nope--Artha is still the Chosen One minus all consequences.
- Are we supposed to view the main 'good' characters as significantly flawed? Nah, based on what I've seen of it.

I've wandered into the area of 'problems with the show as a whole' here, but 'author favouring particular ideas/characters' is not only relevant to Artha as a Sue but the show in general: in DB, many things are not true because of understandable cause-and-effect, they are true because the Authors Say So, like prophecy always being right and Artha being the Chosen One and Mortis being one of the good guys. Sueism, honestly.

Just a question:

Do Canon Sues get a free-ride ALL THE TIME?

And just who exactly is this Ayla person?

(Yeah, I know I sound pathetic, but I cannae help wondering)

They don't have to get a free ride all the time in the sense of every page mentions how wonderful they are and everything they do is amazing, but that aspect is invariably there and usually prominent. Whether or not a character is a Mary-Sue sometimes comes down to personal opinion; it's easy enough to list exactly what in the text qualifies as a Sueish Property, but whether or not those lists slip over the line into Sue or remain on the OC side of the divide is up to you. For example, a character might have the Sueish qualities of royal blood, a psychic sword, and beauty that causes all the male characters in the book to drool over her (the 'free ride' is at this point--all these amazing qualities, bestowed arbitrarily by the author) but might not get the free ride at the point when she realises how horribly she's treated the palace slaves before leading the revolution to free them.

Ayla is from Jean M Auel's Earth's Children series, which starts with Clan of the Cave Bear. It's set in prehistoric times, and it's pretty clear Auel did a lot of research, but as the series continues the quality drops and the Sueish qualities increase. Ayla is a Cro-Magnon orphan raised in a Neanderthal tribe. She's a blonde Aryan (in contrast to the darker-skinned Neanderthals) with a faster-working brain, and despite being a woman she spies on the males learning to use slingshots and becomes a perfect shot, and is also apprenticed to the tribe's medicine woman and memorizes all sorts of convenient information about herbs. One of the Neanderthals rapes her and she bears a child, which she heroically saves from death at the hands of the tribe before running off and spending time in the wilderness alone, and begins inventing everything useful known to modern man. Upon which her love interest enters; like her, he's blonde and beautiful with amazing blue eyes (later on, she chooses him over a black man, surprise surprise) with a bit of a 'problem': his *ahem* staff is overly large for the (many) women he (thinks he's) given great pleasure to, but luckily Ayla's the right size for him. (No, I don't make this stuff up.) Poor Ayla, though, due to being raised by Neanderthals, thinks herself ugly compared to them despite (as the author takes pains to inform us) being an absolutely gorgous, smooth-stomached, large-breasted, tanned blonde woman (no, wait, it turns out she's still in her teens; turns out she had her kid at age ten so that she could be nice and young when the love interest turns up). After soothing her insecurities, Love Interest takes Ayla all around prehistoric earth as she invents more amazing things (she's predicted to be up to the nuclear bomb by book seven at her rate) before bringing her back to meet his parents and his Jealous Former Lover With No Personality Beyond Malice, along with more guys who drool over Ayla. The last book ends with their child, called a freaky combination of their names, Jonayla (Jondalar/Ayla).

And so it is theorised that modern Mary-Sues are all the descendants of Ayla; the gene is probably recessive. It may be a genetically transmitted disease not dissimilar to Alexandra's Genesis.

Praise Jay-zuzs! Sarah, I love. I grovel at your feet and feats. I ab-so-friggan-lut-ly adore you.

And it/you/your post make me wonder if our small little fandom could possibly pull a 'Gargoyles.'

Gargoyles as some of you know, is an old and large fandom. And, it has a vaguely approved by creator fan made spinoffs and continuations based upon the orginal creator's ideas (Greg Wiseman's Timedancer, for instance)

There's so much in Dragon Booster which tickels at your sences, which makes you look and peer, and watch again even though it sucks because there's some spark in there. Some spark of a greater story, some what if, some greatness that is not expressed.

I, obviously, know you're doing a prequel to the series (and it'd be kinda cool/distressing if you had the orginal Dragon Booster a rapist to follow some versions of Authridian Legend--I wonder how Avalon comes into it?)

What if we collected the good ideas, the possibles we see everywhere, and if not rewrite the transcribed episodes at least get a cohesive 'this should have happened' and 'if the plot was deeper and people didn't think kids were idiots this could have happened,' and of course 'OMG, who's that thing in Kitt's body? Where's her brain!?'

Connect the glitters of gold, create more realistic fleshed out profiles--and let our imaginations do the rest.

DB could have been an entirely different story with a bit of thought put into it. You have some highly flawed characters and situations which just seem to be going under the radar of the authors' minds, which I suppose is a bit of an opportunity for ficcing. (I'd call that type of fic a genre in its own right; fics providing a meta-commentary on canon by highlighting some inconsistency or injustice are not uncommon and IMO can be very interesting.)

The pseudo-Arthurian mythology seems to be limited to present day DB as 'coincidence' as far as the world's concerned; if it was at all related to the stories about original DB I feel it'd be stretching coincidence to have had Arturus and his sidekick Lancella battling the evil Mourdredde way back. I'd wonder if Uther and Igraine's relationship--he went to war with her husband at least partly over her, and disguised himself as her husband before carrying her off with him, rape by modern standards--had anything to do with Connor/Unknown Woman, but that's fairly unlikely. (Sir Ector, though, the knight entrusted with looking after the Disguised Young King Arthur, is also known as Cynyr the Fair-Bearded...but in show-context there doesn't seem to be a ruling class available to grant Artha Speshul Ancestry. Thank God.)

Umm...I'm having some trouble on deciding if a certain character in a book is a sue or not. His name is Eragon from 'Eragon, Book one of the Inheritence Trilogy'. If you have read this book Sarah, could you please help me with the above problem. If not it doesn't matter. But thanks anyway!

From everything I've heard (emphasis: hearsay), yes--apparently the character has the speshulness as well as being an obvious avatar of the author (teenage boy), and is also a cliche ripoff from bad Tolkien ripoffs with little to no personality. But, again, that's only going on what I've heard of the book. Canon Sues only has this on him.