I suspect quiet a few of them know English, not well, perhaps, but better than we know, say, spanish. I know English is their usual second language in schools and I know that Japanese are hyper gung-ho about education.

Fact: Power Rangers is SUPREMELY Japanese. It's style is Japanese, it's based off a Japanese show. In fact, the fight giant form fight scenes? Usually dubs from the orginal Japanese.

Apples and oranges, Rugrats is aimed at a MUCH younger audiance so the standards are lower. Furthermore, the animation in Rugrats was unique, and the stories and characters themselves were charming.

Simpsons is a form of satire (occasionally), and is adult humor that fits in with with how anime is also for adults in Japan.

They probably like spongebob for the toilet humor. And the fact Nick has stations over there so can advertize it, and other things, into popularity.

Samurai Jack from cartoon netword was popular in japan, you got a samurai, you got plot, you got an INCREDIBLE art style.

ReBoot, the FIRST computer animated television show was on PRIMETIME SLOTS in Japan. It had likeable characters, huge plot arcs, few plot holes, puns, amusement, and consistant characterization..


I like Dragon Booster, I like it for the shinies I can SEE. But, you have to admit, it sucks. The stories are...well? You have unacknowledged slavery, stupidity, pointlessness, hero-flaw-of-the-day every other episode...need I go on?

Dragon Booster, the IDEA is shiney, the exacution is horrible, that's why people didn't watch it, and why it got canceled.

We do not know if it got canceled for sure. And, I dont think Dragon Booster sucks...Not at all. I have always had a fasination with Dragons. And, when I heard about Dragon Booster. I was very interested. Because, these werent your typical Harry Potter Dragons. These were racing Dragons. Not to menchin humans and Dragons working side by side. How cool is that? As for slavery. The Dragons ARE NOT people. I mean, do you call a farmer owning a hourse is considered slavery? Besides, Im sure Dragons would get treated with much more respect. Heck, I would.

Yes it is. How animals are treated by men is nothing else but cruel slavery. A farm is just like a concentration camp or russian gulag. Kill or make the animal work till it dies, that's how it goes.

I hadn't responded til now because...well I couldn't formulate any responce that wasn't unacceptably insulting. IbanezJFS, your responce went so far beyond the mental hiccup of "OMGWTFBBQ?!," to the point where I can't comprehend where your brain has gone let alone fourmulate a responce.

Thus I was waiting around for Sarah to come by and Frost you.

However, Turkman provided a lovely jumping off point for me, provided a ground for my mental feet to stand upon.

Horses are animals, it's terrible how we treat them but they are NOT SENTIENT.

Dragons in Dragon Booster are.

What part of, "Once they were our equals, now humans control the dragon," DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

They are made to do hard labour, they get room and board, but are not payed. They and their children are bought and sold. Their children are taken away from them at a young age--before they even get to see their faces! They are sentient, and they are property.

That's the bloody definition of slavery!

"But they aren't human," you say. So? They look diffrent from us and so, despite what's in their brains it's OKAY TO OWN THEM?!

What are you? Racist?

Are you going, "But Black people are humans! It's completely diffrent," by any chance?

Okay, let's say we meet aliens from outerspace, they came to us, we not to them, but an accident happened and they don't have their tech so can't defend themselves against us. Whoops! They aren't human, guess it's OKAY TO ENSLAVE THEM!

STFU.

Just...my brain feels tainted by you! I feel MORE dirty right now than I did last night, and had been in a room with 90 year old cadvers.

So, STFU and THINK, use some logic, some critical thinking skills, SOME EMPATHY FOR BLOODY SAKES!

No Its Not. Animals are NOT people. If a cow is standing on train tracks and, a train is coming. Its not smart enough to move. If you point a gun at a chicken. It wont know its threatend. An anmial doesnt know how to perform surgery. But, humans are smart enough to know when our lives are in danger, when we are threatand, and learn how to save peoples live when under the knife. Like I said before. Animals are NOT people. As for working till animals die. Hell, thats the way it is for people too. We work and, work, and work until the very end. And, te only break we get is death.

And I note you can't be arsed to reply to me.

You know what IbanezJFS? A newborn child or a mentally handicapped person isn't as smart as me. And probably can't sense the danger of preform surgery. Does it mean I can go and kill infants? Just because they are weaker then me?

You know what the Nazis used to say? That Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Russians... all were not people. Does it also justify what they have done?

And what does it matter anyway. The animals may be diffrent then us, but the suffering is still the same.

Just watch this wideo HERE and tell me who is the monster?
(sensitive people please don't watch it)



And perhaps could somebody move all the posts that aren't related to the main topic somewhere else? Like the genereal forum. Please.

I completly agree with the idea that it is slavery. Though if it was oppressive the dragons would simply revolt and they have already shown that they are more that capable of doing that. During the eppisode, (crap I forgot the title!) that Beau was turned to black draconium by drinking it, at the end Word tried to hold on when Beau turned back to Gold and Black and he magged him off I was astonished that he held on for just over three seconds if that. Also the dragons do fight to protect their riders which they wouldnt if they disliked them. Example: Profecci and his band. For the human slavery bit,get this. Approximately 90 percent of slaves in the american civil war fought for the South. (Which if you didnt know is the people that kept them as slaves.) After they were liberated from slavery lots stayed where they were and continued to workunder the same conditions. Im not saying they all stayed or that they all left but some did and some didnt. I think its like that with dragons.

People don't tend to think that owning animals is slavery because we consider animals to be our property. However, animals do have feelings and while they may not have the same complex thoughts that we do they still think, they live, and they breathe. Animals and humans have many similaries and yet there are many differences. Then again dragons and animals are also similar and different in many ways, but we are supposed to treat all beings, human or not, with kindness and respect. It's why there's a special type of police officer to stop animal cruelty. The dragons have shown emotion, they know when they are being threatened and they know when something is barreling down at them at high speeds to get out of the way. For all those out there in the world that don't know these things the rest of us that do know are supposed to help those that don't know, whether they be human or animal. I believe that if a dragon was unhappy that they could leave, but most of the dragons seem to have a bond with their riders similar to a family or friend bond. None of the dragons we have seen racing looked unhappy, on the contrary, most seemed to enjoy racing. I'm not sure about the others but it posses an interesting question. there are many sides to this conflict and perhaps for those of us who would like to argue our side on this matter should take it to another topic or another board, but whatever we all chose to do let's try and keep it civil and maintain a certain level of respect for everyone's opinions.

But, the animal welfare act is already in place to prevent these kinds of things. Just because, this stuff is evil. Doesnt mean that PETA's insanity is good. PETA are nothing more then home grown USA terrorists. As far as im concerened PETA can burn to the ground. The PETA you dont know would like to outlaw. Fishing, zoos, dog shows, they even appose the use of service dogs. Like EYE DOGS FOR THE BLIND. Like blind people are really torchuring them. They even appose having animals as pets...Feel like a sucker yet?


And, here is something else. PETA VIOLENTLY appose the use of using animals for medical research. If all we had to do was to expariment on a rat to crue cancer...Peta would not let us do that. And, my whole family is Diabetic. Myself including. And, we use pork and dog based insulin to keep us alive. And, to support peta. That means you people would rather have my whole entire family dead. Just to save 1 pig. Not only that but, PETA's vice president Marybeth Sweatland is ALSO A DIABETIC AND, ALSO USES DOG BASED INSULIN. And, in her own words she said. "I dont see myself as a hypocrit. I need MY LIFE to fight for the right of other"...NOT A HYPOCRIT. Her group publicly bombs medical testing labs where animal testing is done while using the same animal testing to allow them to live there up-side down, house of card, flippn' privlage life. So they desereve to live and, My family and every other person on this planet who is diabetic doesnt deserve to live?


And, here is something else. PETA also has bought a 15 x15 walk in freezer. Now what would PETA need a freezer that big for? A Freezer expert said you would only need a freezer that big for 1 of 2 things. 1 would be meat with no one at PETA would be caught dead with. And, the other...Cadavers. Then this quote was. "Sometimes the only kind thing to do for animals. Is to put them to sleep, forever". Those are the words Of Peta's boss and, president Ingred Newkirk. Does that register? PETA attacks people who kill animals. While they kill animals themselfs. If you want proof of any of things I have just said. Then, go out. Get or rent the second season of the show Penn&Teller:BS. And, see or yourself. And, here is a 15min. clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

So if you support PETA then as far as im concerned. Your a murderer.

No one on here said they wanted the diabetics to die, we merely pointed out that animals need to be treated with respect. I'm not saying owning animals is slavery I've got pets, I'm just saying that the animals need to be cared for to be fed, to see a vet, to have a place to sleep. As for that horse on a farm at the beginning of this argument it could work until it dies but it could still be happy if the farmer that owned fed it properly, let it rest when it was tired, took care of it properly, etc. The problem is with those that treat animals with cruelty. But we are getting off topic and this topic could be deleted so I'm going to bring back the dragons. Propheci had Reepyr as a slave but Reepyr did not know it because he was under mind control and the other riders in the crews in Dragon City seem to work with their dragons as a team. I wonder if Dragon City has people that make sure that dragons are treated with respect? It's an interesting question but I doubt it because this is a children's show and in their storyline that would not be needed, but it is acknowledged that the dragons are no longer treated as equals, they know it, and they are not happy with it.

Not quite sure why but the reply by IbaneJFS had me laughing so hard. Probably because its so rediculous and absured its funny.By the way I dont support or give simpathy to slavers.

I agree animals need to be fed, taking care of, see a vet etc. And, farmers do let their horses take rests and, breaks. Thats why they have more then 1. But, going back to dragons being slaves. As for the eggs. For 1, they would have the same state of mind as a sea turtle does for whenever it lays eggs. It baries them in the sand and, the turtle goes back into the ocean. It doesnt stay to take care of there young. So my point is. What if Dragon do something similier? As for working and, now getting paid. How would you pay a Dragon? Probably giving them a nice home to live in and, be tacken care of. But, all and all. Dragon Booster is just a cartoon.

Yes Dragon Booster is sadly just a cartoon:-( but it has a great message and thats what we need to focus on!!!!!!!!! I think we all have made our points so we shouldnt become separated over our diffrences. Come on guys! *GROUP HUG* :-)

GROUP HUG.

(For Izeakial. Im the Sharif...Im sorry I have been watching to much Aqua Tenn Hunger Force)

That's because most of the slaves were in the south. Also, wonder what would have happened to them if they decided to say no? Furthermore, there's propaganda and indoctrination. Take Women, for instance, abused, maltreated chattle for millenia--and some of them still married willingly. Why? Because that's how things were, they couldn't dream of anything better.

And...HOW would they have gotten out? they didn't exactly have the money to leave.

And yet Prophci took off the Forcing gear and Reepyr spoke of his own voilition. Reepyr DID know, and when Propheci treated humans badly he rebled. Reepyr said it himself, they gave themselves to the dragons, so the dragons could have hands and so they could speek.

Completely hypothetical supposition.

Here's a fact: smarter animals, including humans, tend towards the "K" end of the reproductive strategy spectrum. Plants and many fish, and yes, sea turtles, are "r," they reproduce and don't care for their young, that's PURE "r."

K, K is what humans do, what elephants do. What MOST LARGE PREDATORS DO.

And in anycase, even if that's instinct, Dragons are smart enough to make a choice to care for their eggs to ensure they survive and their investment is not wasted.

How about a, I don't know...PAYCHECK so they can provide these things for themselves?

Here's an example:
You are fed every day.
You are given cloathing every day.
You are sheltered every day.
You are bathed every day.
You work every day.

You don't have a choice what you eat, it is at the whim of another, and it's usually the same thing every day. There is no deseart, there are no snacks unless you perform. You have no choice.

Your cloathing is the same everyday, made to work in and nothing more. You cannot decorate it, you cannot change it. There are no nice cloathing to wear while going to a party or a club at night because you are not permited to go out at night.

You are sheltered every night, in the same room. You have no choice as to the city you live in, where you live in your city, anything. You cannot decorate your room to your enjoyment. You cannot decide to paint it another color. There are no magazines, no posters, no nothing. Your only choice is where in the room will you sleep.

You are bathed everyday. You have no choice as to the soap used, the water tempature, or even WHEN you will be bathed.

You Work everyday. You have no choice in your job, you cannot quit and find one that pays better. You cannot quit and find one you can do better. You cannot quit and find one you like better. You cannot quit and chase your dreams.

You have no choice as to who you see everyday, you cannot see your friends after school or anything, because your circle of aquaintances is dictated by your owner.

The sad thing is, it didn't have to be a 'just.'

Well, the civil war wasnt a war to keep slaves. It was a war for power. And, most black people made weapons and, served that war. And, very few of them own slaves. And, even blacks themselfs owned slaves. And, that show I mentioned I like to watch Penn&Teller:B.S. They did an episode on Reperations. And, they had a black man on there named HK EDGERTON (You can read about him here http://www.southerngrace.biz/bonnieblue/13_hkedgerton.htm ) And, he proudly sports the Rebel Uniform and Flag. And, he sez that the war between the North and South was a war about Region and not Race. And, he also states that if you tell people that the civil War was for race. Then you have told a grand lie. As for Dragons getting a pay check. Do you really think they could set up a bank account with a Dragon Express card? Do they know how to wright their own signature? I dont think they need cloths. And, I think their riders give them Draconi Yum Bars. But, either way. The Dragons seem happy.


Anyways, Yeah Rivit. I am really curiouse to know hy Moordryd's compound looks the way it does. You think it was a coincidence or, or maybe he played in the school band....hahahaha. Im trying to picture Moordryd looking like that. What instraument do you think he would play? Im thinking a Chello.

I seriously doubt you have seen a cow in real life. If a train (or any large object moving at a good speed) comes towards a cow, the cow will RUN. Chickens will not feel threatened when guns are pointed at them because they do not know what a gun is.

Of course animals can't perform surgery. Well, if you count people as animals, they can.

Animals are smart enough to know when their lives are in danger. Why else do zebra flee from lions? Why else do schools of fish try to evade dolphins? If animals did not have the ability to detect danger, then this planet wouldn't have life.

But back to the topic: I wonder when the answers will come in.

I may have not grown up around cows but, can you explain why in the mid 1800's train tracks had COW BLOCKERS on them? Cows are stupid...Period. And, so are chickens. Iv seen chickens eat food out of their own poop. And, if you watch that PETA episode of that show I like (Penn&Tel:BS). They have a clip of a chicken eating Fried Chicken. Animals arent people and, the suffering isnt the same. And, there are already animals well fare acts to prevent abuses and suffering. Oh, and by the way. I may have spent 19 years of my life in FL. But, I moved up here to up-state NY. Where theres a LOT of farm comunities. And, like most farms...They have cows. I have been living up here for 2 years. So I have been around cows.

Cows != dragons.

Dragons = SENTIENT BEINGS.

Dragons = PEOPLE.

That's pretty much the message of the show, or did you miss that part of it? Humans and dragons are supposed to be equal. Dragons were responsible for half the war and managed their own side. Battle tactics, communication between themselves, the treaty at the end which gypped them, etcetera etcetra. Beau understands English, though he can't speak it. Artha talks to him, Chute talks to him, and he gets what he has to do. There's nothing to contradict that other dragons aren't that way, though of course they're not dragons of legend (and they haven't even had what training Beau's received--you try learning to read and think without ever being sent to school, even if your brain's right for it!).

The dragons don't seem happy. Witness the early episodes in particular, dragons growling, Artha saying that dragons are getting tougher and tougher to control. Yes, the racers treat their dragons pretty well, because they have to--but Moordryd doesn't treat Decepshun quite like he would another human (though he does care about her, definitely), and Lance compliments him on that. How do you think the other dragons are treated? The dragons pushing away down in the factories, the taxi dragons, the dragons like Twyster who get talked about in the past tense with laughter when they should be only thirty-something if even that and still around.

They're enslaved. Yes, they're probably willing enough to continue living with humans. Yes, not all of them are being abused. Yes, some sort of new communication gear plus a massive IQ upgrade will be necessary to solve this. But these things need to be done to enable the dragons to get their freedom. Artha and Beau just seem to want the status quo to continue, though, and that's not quite fair (nor is turning them to gold necessarily fair--turning them into black would be a better way to make them smart people).

Damn, I was going to keep out of this until it got it's own thread, but...Uh...just a probibility that the Cow's hooves could get stuck between various rails or such.

On how would they pay dragons, paycheck, and credit cards? look at the writing in dragon booster! it's practically MADE for dragon claws! Send them to school, teach them to read and write.

Oh, and look up Virgina colonists.

And IBanesJFS? You Fail. You fail Logic. You fail every ethics course in existance.

Man, I cant believe you 2 are getting so worked up over a cartoon. And, yes Sarah. I know what your saying. I did catch it. But, maybe their way of thinking is differant. Like in the book/film Eragon. The Dragons believed that it was better for the Dragon to die then the rider. So maybe tot hem slavery is something differant.

Oh and Nemi check your spelling. Because, You spelled Virginia wrong. And, what the heck is this thing suppose to tell me anyway? Something about more slaves? You know what. America did not invent slavery. There was slavery way befor the slave trade. Infact in some places. Slavery is still around. As for the cows hooves getting stuck. Yeah, that is a posibility. But, what about cows who hooves arent stuck? They'll just sit there. As a train comes right at them. I may not have grown up on a farm but, members of my extended family has. So you think I failed in everything...Yeah...right...whatever helps you sleep at night.

Eragon? Yeah, Eragon isn't at all a poorly written, derivative thing written by a young teenager and published by his family. As a matter of fact every single writer on the DB team read it before they created the series! (Please don't say 'that explains a lot'...)

For dragons to think that seems really replulsive to me, particularly considering humans outnumber dragons by a very large degree in Eragon. Either way, what's actually expressed in Dragon Booster is that the dragons were perfectly capable of running their own side of the war and generally understand English--ergo, sentient beings, ergo if they think humans generally deserve to live more than they do that's Stockholm Syndrome.

Cows are not the main topic here. People are cruel to cows. People enslave sentient beings in the DB universe. Which do you think is better?

Also, The Hydrag, that 90% thing is a racist lie. Fifty percent of Southern slaves were women, for a start, who definitely weren't allowed to join the army, and although black people were forced to serve on the Confederate side as trench-diggers and servants and so on, the vast majority of black soldiers were on the Union side.

Not according to HK Edgerton. And, what if they DID think like the people in Eragon. What sounds like something stupid to you. Doesnt sound stupid to someone else. Either way. We wont know until we hear from Magna Draconis. So I say lets wait to here from him. Until then...GROUP HUG

(For Izikeal. Im the Shariff. Haha more Aqua Teen's kicking in. That was 1 of my favorite episodes)

.

Yeah, I get that the Reconstruction could've enabled the South to be more prosperous. But the cause? No. This is a racist site. HK Edgerton appears to be a self-hating person without a grip on facts if he insists that significant numbers of black people fought on the Confederate side. They fought on the Union side, and were poorly treated if taken prisoner because the Confederates generally believed that black people shouldn't be soldiers.

He's not self hating. He just loves the south. And, he thinks people like you are just miss informed. He was even the former vice president of the NAACP. The site you pulled up was full of misinformation. Sure, the south wanted to keep slaves. But, that wasnt their main cause. Like I said befor. Black themselfs even owned slaves. OH, and I contact HK hemself and, told him what you 2 have been saying. Let wait and see what he thinks.

Yeah, but dragons in the Inheritance books can grow to daikaiju-esque proportions, so why have a rider if you're the size of Godzilla?

Y don't we start a new topic to continue our discussions about this...??

Everyone is probably waiting for the Admin to move the posts.

Yes, some animals are less inteligent. But it doesn't make them less alive. And about chicken eating from poop... I'll repeat myself and mention the concentration camps. Back then mothers ate their own children out of hunger. Raw human meat. Or how people used to escape from gulags in Russia- three people escaped but one of them served as a food supply.
It all depends on the circumstances. Animals have instinct, we have conscience. Humans are 'smarter' then animals but when they are pushed to their limits they behave like beasts. People are capable of the most repulsive things.
The diffrence is that we can tell what is wrong and what is right. Killing animals to save a life is bad, because killing is bad generally. But it's good that also a life is saved. It's choosing the lesser evil. On the other hand it will also never be justified. Gaining something form the suffering of other creatures is always wrong.
I agree that sometimes it has to be done. But as human I know that taking the life of other beings is unforgiveable.

I know I used a lot of stuck up phrases but the point is to never forget that no life is less important then the other.

As for the slavery... in truth it's almost as common there days as two thousands years ago. Only harder to notice. I'm talking about human slavery. And it's not happening only in the 'poorer' contries, but also in the big ones like America, France, Germany etc. Taking advantage of illegal emigrants, buying little children for the football clubs, kidnapping women and forcing them to prostitution. There's a long list.

Hug people.

Again, animals ARENT people. And, there is a HUGE differance between a concentration camp and, a live stock farm. Ever notice how good animals are taken care of in a live stock farm? And, keep in mind. Peta is against using animals for medical research. Wich means, they would rather have diabetic that us pork and dog based insulin die. Just to save 1 pig, dog or any other animal where its products are animal based. People come first. And, as for what you said about slavery. There isnt any in the U.S.A. Because, its illegal. And, by deffinanition. A Kidnaping is not slavery. There both cruel acts but, there not the same. As for prostitution. Some Men and Woman do it because, they enjoy it. Its their pursuit of happyness. Wich is 1 of our libirties. And, its not slavery either. Because, you are not buying the person. You are buying their services and, they make money, then go home. As for Illegal imagrants...They shouldnt even be here in the first place. The word ILLEGAL is right in their title. So I could care less about taking advantage of illegal imigrants. Because, they are already taking advatage of us.

This thread is meant to be a continuation of the discussion about the treatment of dragons by humans in the DB world. Click here to see roughly where the discussion began. I'm hoping LightningFlash can maybe merge those postings into this thread right after this one, but if not then you can read what's been said there and then continue the discussion here.

Dragons appear to be fully sentient since it's impossible to deny that Propheci is such, and it's unlikely that he's an isolated case. While they don't talk, I'm willing to assume that all dragons are sentient based on the behavior of Propheci and Beau. That brings up the question of whether humans are treating dragons the way they should in an ethical and moral sense.

There are a number of possible ways to look at this. First, as it says in the opening credits "today, humans control the dragon", which if dragons are sentient, implies some degree of slavery depending on the degree of control that is being asserted. Word's wraith gear would be the most extreme case of control, of course.

We've seen the dragon parking lots where the dragon's feet are magged to the ground while their humans are off elsewhere. That's a pretty blatant representation of shackles, one of the iconic trappings of slavery.

It has been said in the story line on more than one occasion that the dragons are getting harder to control, and at least some humans appear to trying to increase their control over the dragons, which in turn increases tensions between dragons and humans. Ultimately, if this continues we can expect it to lead to war, which is indeed what has been prophesied. So I think the fact that dragons are being treated too much like slaves and property is an intended aspect of the story line since that's the whole reason there's a war looming on the horizon.

It's also clear that not everyone treats their dragons like this. All the main characters clearly treat their dragons nice. Artha, for example, doesn't attempt any kind of retribution towards Beau after Beau teases or trips him. Also, in "Faster than Fear" we can quite clearly see a bond of friendship between Lance and Fracshun.

Dragons appear to want to be with humans, which may be why they tolerate them as much as they currently do. The best example of this are the Prophets. Despite their feelings towards humans in general, the Prophets still hang on to their riders. The Prophets clearly want their humans around, and I think it would have to be for more of a reason than it just being handy to have someone with thumbs available when needed from time to time. :)

The written mythology says that a human's life force adds to a dragon's energy by interacting with the draconium in their bones, so it seems a dragon gets an energy boost from being around humans. Perhaps they crave this as much as they crave food. Carrying a human around is trivial for a dragon, so they might well be happy doing it for the energy boost they get from having a human close by. There are plenty of examples of symbiotic relationships in the real world, so maybe dragons and humans originally evolved together into such a relationship, and it's only when the humans start abusing the privilege that it begins to lead towards war.

So let's pick up the discussion from the other thread now and let's try to stay on topic and focus on the situation in the show itself and not run too far off topic into past events from the real world. This is a Dragon Booster forum after all. :) So let's talk about the treatment of dragons and the slavery issue with dragons in regards to the show itself.

Okay about this dragon treetment coversation.(not to be rude) but I think we get the point everyone as their own opions of this and if someone really wanted to know, why not use it for their question?

If the definition of slavery is confined to pertaining to 'humans', then IbanezJFS is correct, what is being done to the dragons is not slavery. However, that does not make it moral.

If it's expanded to include 'people,' then the question is not "What is slavery," but rather, "How do you define people?" Or, "Are Dragons animals?"

The question of, "Assuming Dragons are people does the treatment of dragons in the show consitute as slavery," does not stand. It is blandantly obvious to me that it does. However, I'm sure it will come up, leading us back to "What is slavery?"

Let us first turn to the question of if Dragons are people or not, since it seems to be the cornerstone of IbanezJFS's circular arguments.

Dragons are capable of comprehending english, witness Propheci and Beau.

Dragons are capable of creation complex tools and objects, See the mythology section where it is stated that Dragons made the Dragon Booster Armor.

Dragons, when provided the correct tools, are capable of speaking, Witness Propheci

Logically, unless they have problems with iconography, I forget the specific name for it, which related to brain structure, they should be able to learn to be litterate.
->This may be argued eitherway since it's pure supposition.
->However, the writing in Dragon Booster looks like clawmarks, ideal for most dragons to scratch out.
->->The writing style looks much the same in ancient works
->->->It can be coincidance, or it could be so the dragons could write.
->->->->Due to the development of socity involving both parties being close together Occam's Razor says the latter.

Yes. That's an excellent statement of the evidence for dragons being people, Nemi. :)

There's also the issue of dragons needing humans more than humans needing dragons. On the face of it, this seems to be the case--we know that in our world we humans have gotten along just fine without dragons, we have opposable thumbs, and dragons may like being around human energies. But dragons possibly can write, and use their mag-pulses to shape armour and gear and gadgets and everything else they need to construct to live comfortably, and they're definitely a lot stronger and faster than humans. Even if the balance of power is just slightly on the humans' side, it doesn't change the fact that dragons are people too--and need to be consulted about what they actually want to do with humans. It's a more complicated issue for that reason, because dragons and humans are more disparate than men and women or white people and black people, but still slavery is Not An Option.

I'd postulate that Dragons don't even need humans for our thumbs.

1) Beau's tail seems pretty prehensile.

2) They have mag energy--they could essentially make robotic hands pretty easily. First something chopsticks like and then progressivly getting more complicated/articulate

3) Most tellingly and pure canon: Artha played VIDD games while in Beau's body. And he wasn't complaining, so likely he was doing it well.


The only thing humans might have on them is that we more easily make tools and we have the need to do so, and thus it's likely that the dragons would never progress past a very primitive tech level.

In case you're going "What?" Here's something amusing:

Why do dragons need spears?
Answer: they don't.

Why do dragons need Air Conditioning?
Answer: Because humans are keeping them from running almost two hundred miles per hour to someplace with a better climate.

My point is that Dragons arent humans. Both are 2 diferent species equally inteligent.

So slavery meaning can change a little as opression of an inteligent being to other. Dragons cant be animals 'casue the have councience that they are a beings as humans.

They also have emotions (Dragons and Humans) so they are beings.

Dragons tolerates the treat that humans give 'cause they need humans (breed, food etc) also I guess that laws may offer some protection to dragons.

And yet, IbanesJFS was insisting they were not enslaved because they were not humans/people. That's why this whole discussion popped up.

What do you think of the morals of the sale of Dragon Eggs?

Well, we don't actual know that the eggs were being sold. All we know at the moment is that humans are in possession of dragon eggs. The interesting question is how did they get them. (Which is why I included the added question to the Magna Draconis to get what he envisioned about this.)

There is a possibility that doesn't violate morals and ethics. If dragons and humans evolved in a symbiotic relationship, it may simply be the job of the humans to raise the dragon's young. Humans clearly value having dragons around, and the trust between the species may have gotten so strong that dragons willingly let the humans take care of the eggs knowing they'll be cared for.

There is an example of behavior along these lines in the real world. The Great Spotted Cuckoo lays its eggs in another bird's nest and then abandons them. The other bird unwittingly raises and feeds the hatchlings as if they were its own. This is actually a case of parasitism, but you could imagine it working in a symbiotic way as well (at least, I can imagine it in the case of animated fantasy world :)).

I'm interested to see what the Magna Draconis had in mind, but I like to think that dragons and humans are in a tight symbiotic relationship where the dragons know that the humans are dependent on dragons, and therefore they can be totally trusted to raise their young. Perhaps this is an instance where having fingers and thumbs make the humans more capable parents for baby dragons and it simply made sense from an evolutionary point of view to let the humans care for the young (i.e., it resulted in a lower infant mortality rate).

However, if humans are taking dragon eggs against the dragon's will, then that would clearly be immoral given that dragons are sentient. I personally don't believe that would be happening, first because I prefer the symbiotic notion, and second because I think it would basically be impossible for a human to take an egg from a dragon that didn't want that. Dragons are so much bigger and stronger than a human, that there's no hope a human could succeed (let alone survive) in taking a dragon's young if the dragon didn't want it.

Anyway, I'm interested to see what the Magna Draconis has to say about this.

First off Morals/ethic are differant for every person. Its not an absolute. It just sounds nice. So our deffanition of slavery might be differant from there. Second of all. Slavery was a world wide shame for us. Hundreds of thousands of African Americans were raped, whipped, beaten, murdered, etc. But, the Dragons in Dragon city look like their being well taken care off. In an exchange for the Dragons services. They are givin' a home, food, water, and being taken care of. They dont appear to be being beaten, raped (that would be gross), whipped, murdered etc. Thats why I dont think they are slaves.

And the Missing The Point Award goes to...?

Nobody here has said that the dragons are frequently being beaten, raped, whipped and murdered. It's only that they're doing whatever the humans want while they're not being consulted, Connor talks about a dragon in his/her thirties at the most in the past tense with a laugh as a 'that', the wraith dragons aren't thought of as sentient beings under mind control, dragons generally aren't given a chance to learn to write and communicate their wishes, many dragons probably aren't protected as much as the valuable racing dragons considering how much concern our heroes show for the wraiths. They're regarded as human property, and although the majority of them are probably house negroes rather than field slaves, they're still enslaved.