In the show, it says that it is the blue dragon crew (Inner Order?) that are the honourable ones, much like samurais. My question is, what does honour mean in Dragon City? It seems to me that they have a few different ideas to us.

No one seems to question the Dragon Booster hitting Moordryd while he's already down for the count. He's done this a few times, though I can't remember which episodes it was in. After it, the Penns seem just to joke about how badly Moordryd got beaten. Does anyone else find this wrong? In many other childrens cartoons, the good guy will hold back from hurting the bad guy if at all possible.

An example of this is in the series Beast Wars, episode 1 and 2, that Optimus Primal (Good Guy) is challenged to a duel by Dinobot (Bad Guy). Optimus wins the fight and has the chance to destroy Dinobot, but instead decides to let Dinobot join the team. He does the honourable thing.

Dragon Booster yells about injustice and then hits Moordryd with a mag-rod.

And on this subject, Word Paynn. I like him as much as the next person, but I have to ask. Do we know if him beating Moordryd is a usual occurance? Moordryd didn't seem to have that much of a reaction when he was mag-blasted into a wall. I know if Conner did that to Artha there would be a huge screaming match followd by some Hero-angsting. Moordryd just growled 'yes father' and took it. It seems to me that he's used to that kind of treatment.

Any thoughts?

Well I don't recall rightly, but the blasting of shadow booster didn't take place in public, so there could be no public out cry. The only ones who saw where the Dragon Priests (like they's complain) and Artha's friends (who have support him no matter what).

Dragon Flares are supposedly honnorable, too. Pyrah helped Artha back onto his saddle mid race in one of the earlier episodes.

I agree, it was anti-hero behavoir for Artha to do what he did. I suppose we're ment to take it as 'okay' since he's the good guy, Shadow Booster is the Bad guy, and in Track of Doom Artha helped Moordryd up.

As Artha becomes more behind the mask of the Dragon Booster--because he is hidden from view. I wonder if it allows him to see his masked enemies as less than human, while he becomes more than human?

And I have no clue about the Word hurting Moordyrd line of thought. Well, that's a Lie. I'd say it's more along the lines "I'm training you. If you don't dodge it's not my fault if you get hurt."

There's honourable . . . and then there's stupid. And some times it's hard to tell between the two.

I haven't seen this ep, and wouldn't defend Artha's actions anyway, I don't think, but if Moordryd's down, well, it'd probably be a good idea to keep him that way.

Yes. Great nobility is its own flaw at times, and sometimes there's the case of a person salvaging their own moral uprightness and as a result of that other people get hurt (eg spare the Dark Lord after you've just killed dozens of faceless grunts and let him go back to abusing the peasantry). But it's not acknowledged that "yes, hitting people when they're down is wrong, but Artha really really had to" (and, erm, the Shadow Booster isn't trying to hurt anyone other than the DB and comrades, Artha doesn't even KNOW what their precise agenda is, and I'd be surprised if most people in Dragon City had faith that the DB's agenda was good for them because he's not actually bothering to present himself as anything other than Superpowered Being Exercising Own Arbitrary Goals From Behind A Mask), nor is the opportunity taken to give Artha some actual, admirable quality such as that respect for human/sentient life.

Word and Moordryd probably think of it as 'training'; it might or might not be a harsh world out there (on at least two occasions Artha whines about still being a kid, and yet we have Kitt and the Crew-leaders out there without apparent parental support) and certainly is for Moordryd at the moment.

Personally, I HATE THAT. It's more like hypocritcy to me. But sometimes understandable (lull in the fighting, like when the enemy is down, so the hero can actually think instead of react)

And people see DB stop thefts and help security

To me Artha comes off as a bit spoiled. He has a home in Mid City, a famous breeder for a father, and VIDDgames to play. If he's spoiled (at least for young teenagers in Dragon City) and now he's got this immense responsibility to save the world and prevent war then of course it's gonna be hard (to not be whiny, selfish, etc).

I've been spoiled so it's nice to see someone who was spoiled and protected step up and overcome his human faults. Even if those faults do come back from time to time. (Okay, a lot, by the looks of things.)

As for the apparent lack of parental support... maybe they're parents are drinkers? Dead? Anyway, it seems like they've got no parents for whatever reason, and because of that Kitt and the crew leaders have had to overcome a lot of bad things to become and stay as strong as they are.

Artha had his dad for a long time and he was conditioned to rely on his father for his needs and protection. His father took care of him and solved the problems, not Artha. So Artha's been a 'kid' longer than Kitt and the crew leaders and he hates it that he's got immense responsability but he still tries.

I like that. You know, even though he has tantrums from time to time. (Who doesn't?) :P

If it were Shadow Booster or anyone stronger than I was, I'd definitely keep them down. Honor or not, I wouldn't give them the chance to get up and stab me in the back. The same for minions.

It's a different place on a different planet with different ideas. *shrugs* Like on earth, different places have different ideas of honor.

That's my take, anyway.

Artha being spoiled is really one of the reasons why he shouldn't be the Chosen One--there are only so many flaws you can give someone before Destiny starts looking rather silly, and beating people when they're down on top of ego and whinging adds up to a fairly unpleasant person (IMO). You bring up a good point in that Artha has some reason to still think of himself as a kid--but still, the world-standard seems to be that sixteen is easily old enough to lead seventy-five to a hundred other people and make your own living. It's like a twenty-one-year-old in our world who was raised wealthy middle class and suddenly has to make their way on their own--yes, it's tough for them, but they still look like whiners compared to someone of the same age from a poor family who's managed to pay their own way and doesn't have a handy father figure mentoring them.

I think refusing to hit someone while they're down, or at least hesitating, does usually say something good about a character. Having Artha hesitate would have been a great way to show him in a heroic light for once.

I perhaps have more to say, but this one thing sticks out in my mind.


Hypothetical Situation:

You lived in an armed civilization, and everyone has Vash the Stampede L33T Skillz. Pretty much everyone has a knife, some civillians even have pistols. You used to have a handgun, not a pistol like everyone else, but a cliploader, semiautomatic--but it looks like a pistol so no one bothers you. And let's say you got into fights with someone with more practice/skills than you but has a pistol. He has threatened and tried to hurt you with his pistol, but despite being less skilled, your stronger weapon allows you to win. And sometimes you switch up to a higher calibure, higher capacity, semiautomatic, and you fight this guy some more, and of course win. Then he gets a semiautomatic and you fight.

Then you get your hands on a machinegun and fight him, and get the guy down, but he's alive because he saved himself with L33t Vash the Stampede Skillz.

Do you blast the mean semiautomatic man with your machine gun to make sure he's down?

Would you condone a police officer who did that?


Moordryd wasn't stronger thann Artha when Artha blasted him. Artha was pumped up with so many gigadracs of energy he was plagerizing Dragon Ball Z because he was flying. Yes, flying, not gliding, his wings were retracted.

Kicking the big burly guy who attacked you in the head to make sure he doesn't get up while call the police is acceptable, espically if you are weaker than him.

That's smart

Kicking said guy in the stomach won't keep him down as long as knocking him out will, so you're only being vindictive, weak or not.

Blasting someone who's down while you're out of their range, what do you think that is?

Yes. Artha is more powerful than Moordryd, I think, or at least equal, and it's not that Moordryd's out to kill innocent civilians as soon as he gets up.

I don't think it's necessarily a *bad* act to hit the villain while he's down, and there are practical reasons. Just a bit of thought from Artha or suggestion that he made a decision rather than just automatically kicking someone while he was down would have been so much better.

Yes, Moordryd and Artha are about the same in terms of power. Except for in the end fight in Eye of the Dragon, Artha was MUCH stronger than Moordryd.

And, in terms of Artha thinking or making a decision instead of instinctively doing it, well it's WORSE than that. Remeber, they can bend mag streams, send them round corners, etc.

Artha could have stopped the mag blast at anytime, since it seems like it was streaming from his hands and not a ball of mag force. He had been delibretely thinking about hitting someone who was flat on their face on the ground.

There's a huge diffrence between kicking the bad guy to make sure he stays down, and having a weapon as massively flexable in its utilities as Magclaw, and blasting a guy when you could concivably tie him up.

Interesting question.


Artha kicking moordryd while he's down is pretty simple. (And you're right, he's done this more then once, though I really couldn't name episodes, i just remember reacting with irritation)

He's a sixteen year old boy.

Moordryd as Moordryd is the equivilant of your school yard worst enemy. Artha's reacting like any normal sixteen year old boy involved ina fistfight with their worst enemy. He's kicking his butt to the best of his ability. Honour be hanged.

Moordryd as Shadow Booster is slightly different. Only slightly. Artha is MR. POOOOWER! He's established himself comfortably as hero, with minor challanges and forces of unnamed, mysterious evil to contend with, all of which he can best. Then suddenly someone appears who seem to be his equal in power, at least, and gives him a good thrashing.
OUCH! RIGHT IN THE TENDER TEENAGED EGO!
He has to thrash said competitor for most the role powerful masked miscreant back.

I really think it's as simple as that. He's acting like a teenaged boy. Honour has nothing to do with teen rivals.

The thing that DOES annoy me is that Artha does it, and people hardly even notice, and when they do, they justify it "It's not that bad to hit a villian while he's down. he's a villian after all" But if Moordryd did it, people would be screaming about how unfair it was.
It's kinda like their cheating. Horrid when Moordryd cheats, but perfectly fine when Artha does.



Moordryd and Word is a little more complex. I don't think it's training. Training is a give and take. Mag blasting Moordryd really didn't leave him with much ability to learn anything, and it's not in his character to dodge his father. I think its just relatively normal behaviour- routine enough for Moordryd to have gotten used to it. Word wants results and he wants obedience, even if it means asking far too much of his son. He expects unwavering loyalty and has little patience for those who don't give it. Moordryd included- though i think more and more lately he's impressed by moordryd's growing strength and defiance. I've noticed he refers to him as 'son' now, where as he never used to.
I know it's a hesitant subject, because it hints on child abuse, but remember the old western cartoon philosophy. It's okay as long when happens to villians. A philosophy that's allowed many rather risque subjects filter though the cracks over the years.
I personally think it's a stupid philosophy.



Anyway, personally I like Dragon Booster's general lack of honour. it it were all honourable and PC, it'd be boring as heck, and I probably wouldn't watch it. I liek the fact the teenagers act like teenagers, even if it makes them petty. I like Word's interesting relationship with his son, it's a great source of friction.

Kicking his butt=/=kicking when he's down

...

Unless it's litterally, with the target raised and positioned.




...

...In which case I can think of better things for Artha to do besides kicking Moordryd's butt.

hon·or /ˈɒnər/ [on-er]
–noun
1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.
—Idioms
22. be on or upon one's honor, to accept and acknowledge personal responsibility for one's actions

—Synonyms 1. probity, uprightness. Honor, honesty, integrity, sincerity refer to the highest moral principles and the absence of deceit or fraud. Honor denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due


an·ti·he·ro also an·ti-he·ro (ān'tē-hîr'ō, ān'tī-)
A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.


...or honor?


...

Takinng responcibility, telling the truth, playing fair: qualities of a hero.

Kicking a man when he's down could be the heat of passion.

Finding nothing wrong with it when you do, that's dishonnorable.

If the hero fights without honnor, discards it when he professes to have it, when he seems to lack it in the first place, does that not make him by definition the anti-hero?

Shirking responcibility, lying, cheating: attributes Artha admits to.

It doesn't even have to be honnor we agree with, just vaguely sympathetic. It doesn't have to be self consistant, so long as it holds.

A code of honnor that does not apply to your enemies and those you do not like, that lets you do anything--is not a code of honnor.

That's taking neopotisim, biases, grudges, likes, and dislikes, and calling it honnor




Cite:
American Psychological Association (APA):
Honor. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved March 21, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Honor

Ruthless self-preservation?

But if he got himself out (and if he's well-prepared and/or a smart cookie, he can) and then shoots me while my back is turned... Well, I wouldn't want that. Especially since I have younger siblings who can't always count on our parents.

*hangs head shamefully* Guilty.

Makes 'em a bit more easy to relate to. And since they're (sometimes petty) teenagers they can grow into (hopefully less petty) adults and make the change apparent.

Which is perfectly valid and acceptable, but not very heroic.

And as a addendum clause: Valid and acceptable within reason, so long as you are not terribly stronger than the person you are supposedly protecting yourself from

Simple, don't turn your back on him.

The fact is Artha was powered up to Superman levels, there's little in the way of acceptable excuses for him.

You may argue, but oh, he'd loose power slowly and then Moordryd would be able to get free.

I remind you to remember chanting the tripe of "Release the Dragon, Release the Human." Powered up Artha and an exhaused Beau up above Drakkus' levels.

Furthermore, there's the knock them out solution of kicking them in the head (as to oppose Artha's action which was more akin to hitting someone with a bat).

...RealFlaws.

Hah! Sounds like a brand name.

But here's the thing, in a hero, real flaws, and hopefully real growth, makes them human.

Too many flaws, or ones in the right places, makes them an anti-hero, and still very human.

Haven't you noticed who the popular characters are in fandoms? A good bad guy, the badboy good guy, the loner dark horse--the anti-heros or the ones who tred close to that line. i.e. Batman. Definetly meets the requirements for being a hero, but is lacking in the accessories (apprently, Batsessories don't make up for being a people person, team player, optimistic, guy like 'regular' heroes), and guess what? he's DCs most popular character/franchize.

More flaws=more human

Perhaps the flaws can push a character into 'inhuman' catagory, but then, their flaws can make us symathetic to them, so the equasion holds.


Artha's been cheating on the track and he knows it. He acknowledges his mistakes his friends call him on by episodes' end, but he does not acknowledge his flaws or cruelty. He is never seen crimefighting anyone but Dragon Eyes, he's avoiding responcibility by chasing after Moordryd and turning his crimefighting into a vendetta. His beliefs change depending on ther person he's facing, showing no integrity to his values.

Artha is an honnorless anti-hero.

I wouldn't go quite that far. Artha's had moments like saving Propheci and saving Word that were quite heroic (though that latter was a little pasted on considering Kitt's earlier behaviour in the ep as compassionate in contrast to his general behaviour). Generally he's...boorish and simplistic in his approach to things, and that's not something I like in a character (especially Teh Chosen One). He hasn't acknowledged cheating yet, and there are other screenshots (for example, in Return of Drakkus) where it seems like it could be that the writers like to show the bad guys on the ground surrounded by uber-powerful good guys or getting hit while they're on the ground.

"Release The Human" is about as necessary as mens' rights activists or David Duke--less so, even, under Dragon City circumstances. Not the appropriate philosophical approach, even if it's required by the world's logic (in which case, prove yourself a true hero by getting around it and releasing the one who's actually enslaved rather than insisisting abolition opponents are necessary!).

Ah! But he has!

"If people know I'm Dragon Booster, I'll get thrown out of the academy!"

That's not "I'm a cheat, I'm going to make amends by swearing off magmoves and/or challenging Kitt in a race where I don't cheat to show the Academy people that she deserved the spot above me", it's "Waah! My perfectly justified heroism might get caught out!" :P

Artha's generally a good person.
But then again, so is Moordryd. Artha has just been in more positions to show it.
They're both just... young. I don't know how many of your are 15-16, or haven't got there yet, but having past that age and looking back, I can truthfully say it's an awkward and often embarassing time. You're caught at the cusp between adult and child. You want to rebel, but you want security, you're confused and that tends to make you a little belligerant. You have a lot of pride, but you pretend you don't.

And I'm talking about a lot of my friends and family too. Apologies to anyone who doesn't feel the same, you were probably blessed ^^

I think their often stupid behviour is pretty right for the age of the characters.