The title of this new topic is:
What is missing in GGWO's Doctrinal Statement?

The topic Description is:
A source for the name Yahweh is missing!

GGWO's Doctrinal Statement concerning Scripture
GGWO's Doctrinal Statement concerning Scripture is found at the link above.

It states:

The question arises,
If Scripture is the authoritative guide for all Christian understanding, life and ministry,
shouldn't we expect to find the Hebrew spelling of God's name,
"as presently being taught by GGWO",
in the extant Hebrew Scriptures?

Of course GGWO is free to demonstrate
[If they are able to]
that the Hebrew Scriptures that they use at GGWO,
do indeed preserve the Hebrew spelling "Yahweh".

However,
just in case GGWO cannot find the Hebrew spelling "Yahweh",
in any of the copies of the Hebrew Scriptures that they study at GGWO,
it would be helpful if they would clearly explain just what evidence they are standing on,
when they dogmatically teach that God's name is "Yahweh".
___________________________________________________________________________
In my opinion,
the editors of the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967 probably gives as good a definition as possible,
[USING WEASEL WORDS AS NECESSARY]
as to why the Roman Catholic Church teaches that God's name is "Yahweh".

They show three Greek transcriptions of YHWH,
that are found in the Greek writings of 3 Early Church Fathers,
and then they write, more or less,
that if you judge by these 3 Greek transriptions of YHWH,
the original pronunciation of God's name was "probably" "Yahweh".

Now why couldn't GGWO place a simple statement like that into their Doctrinal Statement,
just so that everyone would realize that GGWO is not dogmatically teaching that God's name is "Yahweh",
because the name "Yahweh" is preserved in the Hebrew Scriptures.

GGWO is dogmatically teaching that God's name is "Yahweh"
because they are trusting that a particular Greek Transcription of YHWH,
that is preseved in the Greek writings of one or more Early Church Fathers.,
accurately represents the original pronunciation of God's name.

Pastor Carl Stevens is on record as stating that he was trusting in the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria,
for authority for his dogmatic teaching that God's name is "Yahweh".

HOPEFULLY CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA'S GREEK TRANSCRIPTION "IAOUE",
WHICH FAVORS THE ENGLISH SPELLING "YAHWEH",
ACCURATELY REPRESENTS THE TRUE ORIGINAL PRONUNCIATION OF GOD'S NAME.

Daved

One thing not mentioned in the GGWO doctrinal statement is the need for discipline and correction within the body of Christ and for public exposure of those that hurt and mislead others if necessary. Nothing is mentioned about that at all which I seriously think is intentional. Leaders are supposed to be "covered" and be able to do just about anything they want according to GGWO doctrine.

Another thing missing is that pastors shouldn't be lying to the people.

Another missing item is that one must obey God rather than man (pastor). People should never be manipulated to blindly obey or worship any pastor or other leader. Unfortunately this very thing happens at GGWO constantly.

Daved,

I agree with your statement:

"All Scripture contained in the Old and New Testaments
is verbally, plenarily, and inerrantly inspired by God.

It is the authoritative guide for all Christian understanding, life and ministry"

But does that mean Scripture contains all theological information that's available to us?

For example, while Scripture speaks of the persons of the Godhead, it does not use the word "trinity". That's a term that the Church developed as an accurate description & summary of what the Bible says about the nature & persons of God.

Similarly, the Old Testament contains several passages referring the readers to various other books should they desire more information.

Hodeuon

Hi Hodeuon,

You wrote:

I have sort of believed that it meant that since:
all scripture was given by inspiration of God,
if we searched outside of the boundaries of the inspired scriptures,
we did so at our own risk.

I have always considered this to be a Sola Scriptura issue,
but I do not believe that you do.

Do you believe that if Martin Luther was alive today,
he might just criticize the Roman Catholic Church,
[and Pastor Carl Stevens]
for going to the writings of the early Church Fathers,
to find evidence that God's name might be "Yahweh"?

Hodeuon: Do you believe that Pastor Carl Stevens did anything wrong,
when he started teaching that God's name was "Yahweh",
basing his belief on the writings of Clement of Alexandria?

Explain to me,
in much detail,
why this is not a Sola Scriptura issue,
when Christians go to the writings of the Early Church Fathers,
to find evidence of what the original pronunciation of God's name was.

I realize that the issue of God's name is an unusual issue,
because the consonantal text was not vocalized,
and the Jewish people deny that they have preserved the correct pronunciation of God's name.

But what right does a professing Bible Believing / Scripture Believing Christian got,
to trust in the writings of:

1. Clement of Alexandria
2. Theodoret
3. Epiphanius

What reason do either myself,
or a GGWO Christian have,
to trust that Clement of Alexandria actually preserved the correct pronunciation of God's name,
in 190 A.D.

H-E-L-P,

Daved

P.S. The issue of the theophoric names beginning with "(Y)Jeho" still exists,
until some illusive Hebrew Scholar demonstates,
that these names can indeed be derived from "Yahweh".

Peter Kirk proposed a 6-step solution,
but he didn't seem to be confident that he was correct.

"I have sort of believed that it meant that since:
all scripture was given by inspiration of God,
if we searched outside of the boundaries of the inspired scriptures,
we did so at our own risk. "

Yes, but that does not mean there's not things that are true outside of the two covers of the Scriptures. Otherwise why would we use commentaries?

I don't know what Martin Luther's reaction would be today. Because in that case, I assume we'd be hooking him up with everything that's happened & been written since 1546. There are two many variables for me to hazard a guess. There's the making of an Christian novel, though, if anyone would care to run with it.

I believe Carl Stevens got the right answer by the wrong method. His theological self-education appears to have been hit & miss. I think his methodology of looking for authorities to back up what he thought was wrong.

Do you believe that the Masoretes were telling the truth when they wrote that the Name is pronouced Aleph Daleth (Adonai) but written Yodh He?

Hodeuon

Hi Hodeuon,

You wrote,

Hodeuon,

Would I be correct in assuming that all 3 of those statements quoted above,
were answers to the question I asked in my previous post,
which is shown below:

As shown above, you wrote:

Hodeuon,

Since I assume you believe that "Yahweh" is the right answer to the question:
What is the original pronunciation of God's name?

Am I correct in assuming that you give Pastor Carl Stevens credit for teaching that God's name is Yahweh,
which you believe is the correct name of God,
but you question Pastor Carl Stevens' choice of trusting in the writings of Clement of Alexandria?

If I am correct,
why do you question the writings of Clement of Alexandria,
which I understand to be the earliest [190 A.D.] Greek writings
that seem to support the name "Yahweh"?

Do you accept the Samaritan pronunciation "IaBe"
as evidence that the original pronunciation of God's name is probably "Yahweh"?

If so, WHY?


Hodeuon,

You also wrote:

Hodeuon,

Are you sure that it was the Masoretes who were the authors of that statement?

Daved

Note that Daved edited this post on 07/23/08

While doing a Google Search,
I was sort of accidentally directed to a FACTNet:GGWO discussion I had with Hodeuon in June of 2005.

Some of the questions that I just asked Hodeuon, in my last post on DiscussGGWO,
I had previously asked Hodeuon on FACTnet:GGWO in June of 2005,
and
were answered by Hodeuon on FACTNet:GGWO in June of 2005.

Old FACTNet posts by Hodeuon and myself


__________________________________________________
Posted by Daved on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:16 pm:
__________________________________________________

____________________________________________
Hodeuon responded on June 22, 2005 - 10:49 pm:
____________________________________________

Daved

P.S.

I have recently been studying Hebrew Verb Forms, on my owm
and I hope to soon be able to post an image on line,
using Hebrew font,
that might help clarify what Hodeuon wrote in this above post.

Hodeuon appears to have demonstrated,
that without going to the Greek writings of the Early Church Fathers,
it is possible to reach the scholarly conclusion,
that the original pronunciation of God's name might have been "YaH:WeH"!

"Are you sure that it was the Masoretes who were the authors of that statement?"

No, you're correct. It was not the Masoretes. It's tractate Sanhedrin in the Mishnah that says pronounced Aleph Daleth, pronounced Yodh He. It was written by the Tannaim, who were earlier than the Masoretes.

Hodeuon

At the link below will be found a simplified Lamed He Verb Chart for HYH.
[Warning: Since I created it, it may have mistakes in it.]
I hope that Hodeuon will note any errors that he finds in the image.

Simplified Lamed He Verb Chart for HYH

In his June 22, 2005 Post on FACTNet:GGWO,
Hodeuon had concluded:

The Simplified Lamed He Verb Chart for HYH
attempts to show pertinent evidence concerning the Hebrew Verb HYH,
[not the Hebrew verb HWH]
which would indicate that,
an archaic 3rd person masculine singular imperfect form of “to be”
[e.g. The Hebrew Verb HWH],
might be "YaH:WeH"

Gesenius probably used a similar method in 1815 A.D.
when he proposed the Hebrew punctuation of YHWH shown in Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible.
[Note that Gesenius believed that the Hebrew punctuation that he propsed,
might be a hiphil form of the Hebrew verb HWH.]

[Note how similar Gesenius's Hebrew punctuation of "YHWH is
to the 3ms singular imperfect Hiphil form of "HYH",
shown in the Simplified Lamed He Verb Chart for HYH.]

See image at the link below:

Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible states that Gesenius proposed the Hebrew punctuation: "YaH:WeH"

[Iit should be noticed that Gesenius's German writings indicate
that he was influenced by the Samaritan translation "IaBe",
which favors "YaH:WeH".]

Gesenius's proposed Hebrew punctuation: YaH:WeH"
can be found in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon of 1905
See link below:

Gesenius's proposed Hebrew punctuation "YaH:WeH" is found in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon of 1905.
It is at least possible that Gesenius was not aware that Clement of Alexandria had written "Iaoue",
which also favors "YaH:WeH.

It is possible that in 1815 A.D.
Greek scholars were not aware that Clement of Alexandria had written "Iaoue"
in about 190 AD.

An 11th century Greek Codex of Clement' of Alexandria's Greek Stromata Book V, Chapter 6:34
preserved the Greek spelling "Iaou" not "Iaoue".

Nevertheless since 1905,
all sorts of evidence has been discovered
that indicates that Clement wrote "Iaoue" not "Iaou"

Pastor Carl Stevens is on record as trusting in the writings of Clement of Alexandria
for his dogmatic teaching that God's name is "Yahweh".

The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, definitely supports Pastor Carl Stevens' trust in Clement of Alexandria.
See link below:

Encyclopedia Britannica of 1911 says that Clement of Alexandria wrote "Iaoue'

However, Note that the Encyclopedia Britannica lists the varient "Iaou" not "Iaoue",
as being preserved in the Codex L.

Codex L. is an 11th century Greek Codex.

Pastor Carl Stevens' trust in Clement of Alexandria's Greek writings,
is supported by at least 2 critical editions of the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria,
written in the 20th century.

Both of these Critical Editions of Clement of Alexandria's Greek writings,
quote several Greek Catenas
that quote Clement of Alexandria as having used the Greek spelling "Iaoue".

The evidence that Clement of Alexandria wrote "Iaoue"
does not appear to have been found in any Greek Manuscript,
of Clement of Alexandria's Greek Stromata Book V., Chater 6:34.

[Note Hodeoun may be aware of a recently discovered Greek manuscript,
that claims that Clement wrote "Iaoue".]

Edited by Daved on 08/01/08
Corrected Image URL

Daved

I've been told that a complete text of Clement of Alexandria's Stromata was recently discovered at St Catherin's Monastery, Sinai. I do not know if anyone has even had a chance to check the readings yet. I have not verified my source yet.

Hodeuon