Title: The name Yahweh is important to GGWO.
Description: So, why isn't it found in the Scriptures
daved - July 20, 2008 12:06 PM (GMT)
I think that it is obvious that the name "Yahweh" is very important to GGWO.
However the name "Yahweh" is found in NO extant Hebrew Scriptures?
This past week "the Church" has been discussed on "The Grace Hour".
Over and over it was stated how important it was for a true Christian Church,
to be a "Bible" believing Church.
[Just in passing,
on todays TV Broadcast,
Charles Stanley was preaching on how important it was,
that Christians should base their beliefs on the Bible.]
When GGWO states dogmatically that God's name is "Yahweh",
they are doing so as Christians,
who claim to be Bible believing [i.e. Scripture believing] Christians.
GGWO MUST BE AWARE THAT THE NAME "YAHWEH" IS FOUND IN NO EXTANT HEBREW SCRIPTURES!
So, why doesn't it seem to bother professing Scripture believing GGWO Christians.
that the name "Yahweh" is NOT found in any extant Hebrew Scriptures?
Shouldn't they at least acknowledge,
either IN THE PULPIT
or in their Statement of Faith,
that the name Yahweh,
that they are dogmatically teaching is God's name,
is NOT found in any extant Hebrew Scriptures?
If the pastor in the GGWO pulpit would only acknowledge up front to the congregation
that the name "Yahweh" is found in no extant Hebrew Scriptures,
that would open the door to the Pastor,
whoever he might be,
to give a series of messages,
on precisely what evidence does exist,
that indicates that the original pronunciation of God's name
might have been "Yahweh".
Daved
P.S.
This is my rant for today.
Ironman - July 20, 2008 02:51 PM (GMT)
Daved, ok now I am getting interested in this subject. I have had a text and audio copy of the World English Bible for years and never really looked into it. As you may know that translation repeatedly uses Yahweh. Thank you for diligent attention concerning this subject. Are you familiar with the WEB project and its authors?
guest2 - July 20, 2008 03:23 PM (GMT)
Hi Daved, here is my counter rant.
You said:
"I think that it is obvious that the name "Yahweh" is very important to GGWO."
"Shouldn't they at least acknowledge,
either IN THE PULPIT
or in their Statement of Faith,
that the name Yahweh,
that they are dogmatically teaching is God's name,
is NOT found in any extant Hebrew Scriptures?"
My response is that if it was as important to them as they pretend it to be, they would include it in their statement of faith.
You also said:
"GGWO MUST BE AWARE THAT THE NAME "YAHWEH" IS FOUND IN NO EXTANT HEBREW SCRIPTURES!"
To that I say not necessarily. As I stated before GGWO has no bible scholars. The best they can do is accept and agree with the conclusions of others on the subject. There may have been some in years past who were high level Bible students who had seminary training elsewhere, but they are long gone. I think that you Daved have studied this subject far more than anyone in GG ever has.
daved - July 20, 2008 04:38 PM (GMT)
Hi Ironman,
You wrote:
| QUOTE |
Daved, ok now I am getting interested in this subject.
I have had a text and audio copy of the World English Bible for years and never really looked into it.
As you may know that translation repeatedly uses Yahweh.
Thank you for diligent attention concerning this subject.
Are you familiar with the WEB project and its authors?
|
Ironman,
I have just printed out 15 pages of Frequently Asked Questions from the link below:
The World English Bible (WEB) FAQI will look them over later today.
I probably will join the WEB mailing list.
I own a Roman "Catholic New Jerusalem Bible",
which translates the Tetragrammaton as "Yahweh" in about 6823 places.
I have to acknowledge that the Old Testament comes alive when I read the "New Jerusalem Bible",
even though I have doubts about the correctness of the name "Yahweh".
Ironman,
You can find information on the name "Yahweh" from a Roman Catholic point of vitew at:
Jehovah (Yahweh) Article in the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1910Under the heading "To take up the ancient writers" you will find the following text:
| QUOTE |
The judicious reader will perceive that the Samaritan pronunciation Jabe
probably approaches the real sound of the Divine name closest;
the other early writers transmit only abbreviations or corruptions of the sacred name.
Inserting the vowels of Jabe into the original Hebrew consonant text,
we obtain the form Jahveh ( Yahweh ),
which has been generally accepted by modern scholars as the true pronunciation of the Divine name.
It is not merely closely connected with the pronunciation of the ancient synagogue
by means of the Samaritan tradition,
but it also allows the legitimate derivation of all the abbreviations of the sacred name in the Old Testament.
|
There is evidence that the Hebrew scholar Gesenius,
basically mixed the vowels "a" and "e" from the Samaritan pronunciation "Jave" with the consonants YHWH
to create his proposed Hebrew punctuation "Yahweh".
Daved
daved - July 20, 2008 05:20 PM (GMT)
Hi Guest2,
You quoted a comment that I wrote, and then added your own comments:
| QUOTE |
"GGWO MUST BE AWARE THAT THE NAME "YAHWEH" IS FOUND IN NO EXTANT HEBREW SCRIPTURES!"
To that I say not necessarily.
As I stated before GGWO has no bible scholars.
The best they can do is accept and agree with the conclusions of others on the subject.
There may have been some in years past
who were high level Bible students who had seminary training elsewhere,
but they are long gone.
|
Guest2,
I suppose that if a member of GGWO had only read the definition of "Yahweh",
as written by the editors of the Brown-Driver-Briggs-Lexicon of 1905,
they might believe that "Yahweh" actually does exist in some extant Hebrew Text.
Definition of "Yahweh" as found in the B-D-B Lexicon of 1905 The editors of the B-D-B Lexicon of 1905 sure don't seem to manifest any doubt,
when they write that "Yahweh" [shown in Hebrew font]
is "the proper name of the God of Israel."
Daved
Ironman - July 21, 2008 10:46 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (guest2 @ Jul 20 2008, 10:23 AM) |
You also said:
"GGWO MUST BE AWARE THAT THE NAME "YAHWEH" IS FOUND IN NO EXTANT HEBREW SCRIPTURES!" --------Qoute from Daved
To that I say not necessarily. As I stated before GGWO has no bible scholars. The best they can do is accept and agree with the conclusions of others on the subject. There may have been some in years past who were high level Bible students who had seminary training elsewhere, but they are long gone. I think that you Daved have studied this subject far more than anyone in GG ever has. |
Great points Guest2,
Daved,
The only person that comes to mind as to having any ability or knowledge in this subject is John Leonard, I dont see him often but am pretty sure he is still with mbc&s. Obviously he found it necessary to get educated outside of the ggwo complex. I dont think anyone has gone through more formal schooling in ggwo than he has. It certainly would be interesting to get his take on this subject.
So there it is you MBC&S college student that may be reading , I am officially disqualified because of my standing on this board but you can ask or just sponge in every word that proceeds out of the mouth of your pastors in ggwo/mbcs.
daved - July 21, 2008 12:05 PM (GMT)
Hi Ironman,
You wrote:
| QUOTE |
The only person that comes to mind as to having any ability or knowledge in this subject
is John Leonard,
I dont see him often but am pretty sure he is still with mbc&s.
Obviously he found it necessary to get educated outside of the ggwo complex.
I dont think anyone has gone through more formal schooling in ggwo than he has.
It certainly would be interesting to get his take on this subject.
|
Ironman,
Below is a message by John Leonard,
that I previously posted on another thread:
Pastor John D. Leonard appears to be a very strong supporter of the name "Yahweh"
Pastor Leonard even says that when the reader sees "The LORD" ["LORD" in capitals]
in the King James Bible,
in most cases that is "Yahweh".
_______________________________________________________________________________________
In the message that Pastor John D. Leonard preached on August 6, 2006
Pastor John Leonard used the name Yahweh 8 times.
Pastor Leonard uses a lot of paranthetical expressions during his message.
They are in red font below.
Pastor Leonard says:
>>>
| QUOTE |
But turn with me to Isaiah chapter 45,
and Yahweh is speaking here,
and wherever you see,
[most of the time in the King James they get it right]
a capital L-O-R-D in the Old Testament,
that’s the name Yahweh,
the covenant name of God
and really it’s like “I AM who I AM”.
But in the Hebrew mind whenever they use…,
[You don‘t have to use the verb “to be”.
You just say, and it’s the same in the Greek, like “God Loves“,
when you speak of the state of somebody,
like “God is holy” we say.]
….But in Hebrew and Greek you just say “God holy”
when you’re speaking of, like their state, their state of being.
And most of the time when they use the verb “to be” in reference to God
it’s in the dynamic way, in a relational way.
And you know I like to translate it like “I AM WHO I AM” , I AM WHO I IS”
or “I AM WHO IS”
like I’m the one right here now,
you know I AM, always have been, and always will be,
but right now I’m like here and you know I want to bless you
with some wisdom from above.
And Yahweh’s speaking here, and look at 21b, at the end of it. He says:
“there is no God else beside me; a just God and Saviour; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth,
For I God, I am God and there is none else.”
“I have sworn,”
[and in the Hebrew that’s actually I have seven. ( the finished work ).
It’s the same word for seven, a noun.]
“I have sworn”
[or I have promised by myself (unconditional)]
“the word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness and shalt not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear.”
You know in Philippians 2:9 through 11, the Bible says He could therefore,
[because of the Lord Jesus and what He did through His emptying of Himself
by taking a form of a servant in verse 7,
and always obeying the will of the Father,
which was to come and serve and to give His life as a ransom for many,
and because he humbled Himself in Philippians 2:8,
becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.]
And Philippians 2:9,
“God has highly exalted Christ, and given Him the name which is above every name,”
[every name in heaven, every name on earth, or every name under the earth],
“that Jesus” [the Messiah, Jesus the Christ], “is Lord to the glory of God the Father“,
Amen.
And you know Paul quoted this verse right from Isaiah here (e.g. Isaiah 45:23),
“that unto me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess.”
And it’s beautiful to have the New Testament, and look back,
and many times when the name Yahweh is used
it’s almost like you see the triune Godhead,
especially Christ in God the Father, in the use of that name.
There’s like this ah multiuse where many Old Testament passages,
where it talks about…
[ Turn with me to Zechariah 12:10, and keep your finger on Isaiah 45]
…In Zechariah 12:10,
this is when Christ at His second coming for the nation of Israel,
at the end of the tribulation…
….Of course at the end of Isaiah 45 it says “all of Israel will be justified in me”,
[not quoted perfectly]
but in Zechariah 12:10 there’s a similar passage where Yahweh’s speaking
for we see Christ included in this.
OK Zechariah 12:10
“I will pour out on the house of David,
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications:
so that they will look on me”
[ God, Yahweh speaking, they are going to:],
“look upon me God, who they have pierced,
and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son.
Now go back to Isaiah 45:23, Notice that in Isaiah 45:
“every knee is going to bow, and every tongue shall swear” to “Yahweh”
Remember 24,
“surely shall one say in “Yahweh” have I righteousness”
[and we know today our righteousness is in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:21]
“and strength:”
[and our only power is in the Grace that is found in Christ Jesus
But notice it says:]
“even to Him shall men come”
[he switches the pronouns again,
men are going to come to Jesus]
And I was just thinking about the name of the Lord Jesus
and His throne ministry to us over the years.
|
Daved
daved - July 21, 2008 02:58 PM (GMT)
In my previous post I quoted Pastor John Leonard as saying:
| QUOTE |
But turn with me to Isaiah chapter 45,
and Yahweh is speaking here, ...
|
The question being raised here is:
Is Pastor John Leonard telling the truth
(according to the Hebrew Scriptures)?
Do the extant Hebrew Scriptures actually support Pastor John Leonard's statement that:
| QUOTE |
and Yahweh is speaking here, ...
|
Probably every Pastor in GGWO believes that "Yahweh" is speaking in Isaiah Chapter 45,
however is there any extant Hebrew text on the planet earth,
that GGWO pastors can hold in their hand,
and truthfully say that the underlying Hebrew in that extant Hebrew text,
clearly preserves God's name as "Yahweh".
When a "professing" Bible Believing / Scripture Believing Christian stands in front of us
and dogmatically states that God's name is "Yahweh",
should that Christian be able to present evidence from the Scriptures
that what he is stating is actually true,
(according to the Hebrew Scriptures)?
DOES IT MATTER?
Daved
Ironman - July 22, 2008 02:02 AM (GMT)
[QUOTE=daved,Jul 21 2008, 09:58 AM]
DOES IT MATTER?
I think it does matter to some, as it should. However, to witness and experience the presence of the Holy One between us (where two or more are gathered in His name) is a supernatural gift that cannot be sought after. But we yearn for it, and these discussions usher us into His presence even though a wall of separation exists in cyberspace (we cannot get the fullness of the thought that God is communicating thruogh each of us). We cannot look into one anothers eyes or sense the facial expressions that speak so much. I am thrilled to read of all the different accounts of people and their writing styles on this site alone.
What may matter to some is the way a specific doctrine is used to promote a ministry's attendance, specifically when it is taught with dogmatism and charismatic overtones. this has proven to be painful for many as the slippery slope of power drunk leaders cripple weaker members on the way down. And it should matter, thats the life God has called us into. His kingdom. All to His Glory, may we grow and teach others of the snares that lay ahead.
Daved, glad you invested the time to share on this important subject. Rest well.
daved - August 9, 2008 05:15 PM (GMT)
Ironman and myself have recently been communicating by email,
by way of our individual DiscussGGWO control panels.
Ironman has asked me to post my last reply to him,
[which was sent on my DiscussGGWO control panel]
on a DiscussGGWO topic that I had originated.
I chose to post it here:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
| QUOTE |
Message Forwarded from Ironman
Daved,
You wrote;
When you enter into discussions on "Yahweh" or "Yahshua" ,
there appears to be no "inspired Scriptures" to take a stand on,
in support of one's individual viewpoint.
Thus there is what appears to be a never ending controversy on this issue,
because this controversy has very little support
from what commonly is considered to be:
"Scripture that is given by inspiration of God."
Daved,
In my limited study of "scripture that is given by inspiration of God",
the defining factor of what is inspired also seems to have great controversy.
Do you have any thoughts in this area?
Ironman
|
Ironman,
You wrote:
| QUOTE |
Daved,
In my limited study of "scripture that is given by inspiration of God",
the defining factor of what is inspired also seems to have great controversy.
Do you have any thoughts in this area?
Ironman
|
Ironman,
The issue of which Hebrew manuscripts are inspired certainly enters into the "Yahweh/Jehovah" controversy.
It appears that most Evangelical Christians believe that,
only the Original Hebrew Autographs are considered to actually be "given by inspiration of God".
[However they no longer exist,
and even if they did exist,
they are thought to be unvocalized,
so they can't help us to know how the Tetragrammaton was pronounced.]
Note! Josephus wrote that the 4 letters of the Tetragrammaton were "vowel letters".
Because of the writings of Josephus,
many Sacred Name Ministries believe that what is sometimes referred to as the "unvocalized Tetragrammaton,
can actually be pronounced.
While the Old Testament of all English Bibles has been translated from a "vocalized Hebrew Text",
[ i.e. A Masoretic Text ]
that doesn't help us to solve the "Yahweh/Jehovah" controversy,
UNLESS GOD'S NAME IS ACTUALLY (Y)JEHOVAH.
The Masoretic Text which underlies the Old Testament of the King James Bible,
preserves the "vocalized" Hebrew Tetragrammaton as "(Y)Jehovah 6518 times.
The "Yahweh/Jehovah" controversy would appear to be solved,
if the Masoretes had actually "vocalized" the Tetragrammaton correctly.
However, most Hebrew scholars,
AND
most Jewish persons state rather dogmatically that
the vowel points found in the Tetragrammaton.
are not the actual vowel points of God's name!!!!!!!!!
Enough for now,
Daved
This post has been edited by Daved on 08/09/08
Guest - August 9, 2008 08:23 PM (GMT)
What text is inspired by GOD?
daved - August 9, 2008 09:41 PM (GMT)
Guest writes:
| QUOTE |
What text is inspired by GOD?
|
Guest,
Your question needs to be answered by GGWO.
The whole point of this topic is to attempt to demonstrate that
GGWO is dogmatically teaching and believing that God's name is "Yahweh",
yet
there is no extant Hebrew Text,
inspired or not inspired,
that preserves God's name as "Yahweh".
Of course if Pastor Tom Schaller steps into the GGWO pulpit tomorrow,
with an old Hebrew Manuscript in his hand
that preserves God's name as "Yahweh" in vocalized Hebrew,
my case would defintely be proven to be flawed.
Daved
P.S. Hodeuon believes that God's name is probably "Yahweh"
Guest - August 9, 2008 11:46 PM (GMT)
daved, the question-"what text is inspired by god?"-may matter only if an existing hebrew text is discovered. At the occasion a text emerges validating "yahweh" as gods name would the credibility of inspiration be at issue?
Ironman - August 10, 2008 02:49 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (daved @ Aug 9 2008, 04:41 PM) |
Guest writes:
| QUOTE |
What text is inspired by GOD?
|
[SIZE=3] Guest,
Your question needs to be answered by GGWO.
|
Daved and Guest,
That would be a great question to ask, I can,t think of anyone being marked and shunned for asking such an honest question. I guess another question would be, are there other ministries that would stand with ggwo concerning their answer?
Ironman - August 10, 2008 11:12 AM (GMT)
Daved,
Something I've been considering about God's name and the importance of it.
When developing relationships in life, I begin very cautiously in observation of the character of one being related to. The principle of one on one or even "face to face" impresses me with greater fulfillment as the relationship develops. In further developments the nature of an individual becomes evident to the state of transparency. To know someone, the name and the attributes of the name become valuable for an enduring connection between the contributing persons. If the designation and the transparent nature of a person are not harmonious, disagreement can be vague and work against future association. When I applied this to the mystery of God's name, it took me into a higher form of reverence. Is this something that you have experienced in degrees?
daved - August 10, 2008 11:47 AM (GMT)
Hi Ironman
I wrote the below text and posted it,
before I realized that you had previously written a new post on Aug 10 2008, at 06:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does Pastor Tom Schaller have rap sessions like Pastor Carl Stevens used to have?
If he does, can questions such as
"What text is inspired by GOD?" be freely asked, and discussed.
Can individual Pastors such as John Leonard [if he is available] be approached and asked this question.
If any Pastor in GGWO knows of an extant Hebrew text that they believe is "inspired by God",
does that "inspired Hebrew text" preserve the vocalized Hebrew spelling "Yahweh"?
________________________________________________________________________
Pastor Tom Schaller's "We have a totally dependable Bible" sermonIn a sermon on June 1, 2008,
Pastor Tom Schaller said:| QUOTE |
And so we are those who are assembling together with an understanding,
that our Bible is totally dependable,
and that we need nothing less than God Himself to live in us,
to work through us,
and manifest Himself in us, through us,
and thereby bear fruit in our lives,
the fruit of love, divine love, and joy, and peace
and then the works of grace,
the work of God, the work of Christ through the believer.
|
Earlier in his message Pastor Tom Schaller had said:
| QUOTE |
But the theology of the day
has departed largely from believing that the Bible is fully inspired,
totally dependable, and absolutely perfect in its originals.
We have translations, of course there is not / none perfect.
But we cannot take the Scriptures here...
Pastor Tom Schaller holds the open King James in front of his lower body
...that we would analyze and criticize,
and determine on our own subjective self opinion, biases, ideas what it is saying,
or to put in it, what it is saying.
|
QUESTION,
When Pastor John Leonard recently held a King James Bible in his hand, in the pulpit,
and said that in most cases when you see "the LORD" in the King James Bible, that is "Yahweh"
wasn't he actually "determining on his own subjective self opinions, biases, ideas, what the King James Text is saying"!!!!!!!
Daved
daved - August 10, 2008 02:40 PM (GMT)
Hi Ironman,
You wrote:
Posted on Aug 10 2008, 06:12 AM
| QUOTE |
Daved,
Something I've been considering about God's name and the importance of it.
When developing relationships in life,
I begin very cautiously in observation of the character of one being related to.
The principle of one on one or even "face to face"
impresses me with greater fulfillment as the relationship develops.
In further developments the nature of an individual becomes evident to the state of transparency.
To know someone, the name and the attributes of the name become valuable
for an enduring connection between the contributing persons.
If the designation and the transparent nature of a person are not harmonious,
disagreement can be vague and work against future association.
When I applied this to the mystery of God's name,
it took me into a higher form of reverence.
Is this something that you have experienced in degrees
|
Ironman,
Pastor Carl Stevens introduced me to Exodus 34:6,
where God proclaims His name to Moses.
In the process of proclaiming His Name,
God lists some of His attributes.
Exodus 34:6-7 in the King James Bible reads:
| QUOTE |
[SIZE=3]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed,
The LORD, The LORD God,
merciful and gracious,
longsuffering,
and abundant in goodness and truth,
Keeping mercy for thousands,
forgiving iniquity and transgressio and sin,
and that will by no means clear the guilty;
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,
and upon the children's children,
unto the third and the forth generation.
|
Ironman,
When I find myself in extreme conflict concerning the "Yahweh / Jehovah" controversy,
and I'm not sure who's side I am on.
I think of 2 Peter 3:9 in the King James Bible,
which reads:
| QUOTE |
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
|
Daved
daved - August 10, 2008 03:50 PM (GMT)
On Aug 9 2008, 06:46 PM, Guest wrote:
| QUOTE |
daved,
the question-"what text is inspired by god?"
-may matter only if an existing hebrew text is discovered.
At the occasion a text emerges validating "yahweh" as gods name
would the credibility of inspiration be at issue?
Guest
|
Guest,
In my opinion,
Hebrew scholars [AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE]
would certainly want to try to determine the legitimacy of this Hebrew manuscript.
I would assume that this manuscript would have vowel points,
which would seem to indicate that the Masoretes wrote it,
and chose to hide it,
possibly until a time when the Jewish people want God's name to be revealed,
not only correctly,
but with the proper Jewish authority behind it.
FWIW, that is my speculation for today,
Daved
Guest - August 11, 2008 12:29 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (daved @ Aug 10 2008, 10:50 AM) |
FWIW, that is my speculation for today,
Daved[/SIZE] |
If there was speculation for today it would be the veracity of how "inspired scripture" is used to define how people think in mainline churches. Is anyone going to wake up and realize these slick sales tactics are abusive in nature to any type of family that seeks to know the one true God ,whatever his name is!
FWIW Ironman - August 11, 2008 10:02 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (daved @ Aug 10 2008, 09:40 AM) |
Ironman,
When I find myself in extreme conflict concerning the "Yahweh / Jehovah" controversy,
and I'm not sure who's side I am on.
I think of 2 Peter 3:9 in the King James Bible,
which reads:
| QUOTE |
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
|
Daved
|
Daved,
The scripture was timed right when I needed it.
Then when I came back reading over it again, repentance seemed so far from me. I could not find it. I wondered how long would "YaHWeH" wait. I can not tell without the expression of Himself by the use of those that serve Him. I am guessing that the guest in this thread is allowed to post here to confuse me, in order for me to trust Him more completely.
daved - August 11, 2008 04:23 PM (GMT)
Hi Ironman,
You wrote:
| QUOTE |
I wondered how long would "YaHWeH" wait.
|
Ironman,
Would I be correct in assuming that while you were a member of GGWO,
you accepted the GGWO teaching that God's name was "Yahweh"?
If you did previously accept GGWO's teaching that God's name was "Yahweh",
didn't you,
at that time,
fellowship with likeminded members of GGWO,
that you were able to talk to?
Were questions ever asked within the walls of GGWO,
about precisely where the English name "Yahweh" came from?
Daved
Coffee Guy - August 11, 2008 04:32 PM (GMT)
I cannot remember where but I heard somewhere that God's name cannot even be pronounced with the human tongue.
Do you have any information to this effect?
Guest - August 11, 2008 08:28 PM (GMT)
God's name is difficult to say when your face is in the dirt consumed with the HIS presence.
Guest - August 11, 2008 08:32 PM (GMT)
Right, if only Admin could delete the second "the" in my post above as well as this post! Time to pay for a proofreader.
daved - August 12, 2008 11:35 AM (GMT)
In his Aug 9, 2008, 09:49 PM Post,
Ironman quoted my Aug 9, 2008, 04:41 PM post as stating:
| QUOTE |
Guest writes:
| QUOTE |
What text is inspired by GOD?
|
Guest,
Your question needs to be answered by GGWO.
|
Ironman then wrote:
| QUOTE |
Daved and Guest,
That would be a great question to ask,
I can't think of anyone being marked and shunned for asking such an honest question.
I guess another question would be,
are there other ministries that would stand with ggwo concerning their answer?
|
Ironman,
Pastor Carl Stevens has said that the first question God is going to ask us at the Bema Seat Evaluation is:
Do you believe that the Bible is totally inspired?.
Pastor Carl Stevens didn't think that anyone should have any problem with that question,
as long as they believed in 2 Timothy 3:16.
So Ironman,
I agee with you:
That would be a great question to ask,
I can't think of anyone being marked and shunned for asking such an honest question. [i.e. What text is inspired by God?]
Daved
P.S.
Of course I would like to reword that question slightly.
I would ask the question as:
"Is there any text inspired by God,
in which God clearly preserves His Name as "Yahweh"?"
Certainly no one should be marked and shunned for asking that question, either
Guest - August 12, 2008 09:54 PM (GMT)
To validate God's name,do we need two or more witnesses from the point of first mention?Are we excersizing faith in Moses that he,being a man of God would not make a mistake in relaying important information?Were the people afraid to confront Moses on controversial issues?I am glad I was not there.Wish I knew where I be now.
Ironman - August 13, 2008 02:51 AM (GMT)
Daved, you wrote:
Ironman,
Would I be correct in assuming that while you were a member of GGWO,
you accepted the GGWO teaching that God's name was "Yahweh"?
Daved,
When I used "YaHWeH" it just seemed like the right place to use it. I may have been impressed by GGwo to think of God's name as "YaHWeH" throughout the years, but the World English Bible has impressed me to use "YaHWeH" as a reference for God's name much more than GGwo.
You also wrote:
Were questions ever asked within the walls of GGWO,
about precisely where the English name "Yahweh" came from?
My answer is that, there are questions that are encouraged and questions that are not encouraged. Your question, as honest as it sounds does not fit the framework for profitable exchange in teaching at GGwo.
Ironman - August 13, 2008 02:57 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Coffee Guy @ Aug 11 2008, 11:32 AM) |
I cannot remember where but I heard somewhere that God's name cannot even be pronounced with the human tongue.
Do you have any information to this effect? |
Today I sneezed and honestly thought I heard God's name in it. I do not hear voices in my head but there is alot of music in there that comes in handy especially for the dry times of life. Must be ready for a cold one.....Coffee that is!
Coffee Guy - August 13, 2008 03:00 AM (GMT)
HA HA HA HA HA Ironman!
I must be tuned into radio stations or something because I wake up to music in my head.
Usually it's music I haven't heard in a long time too.
And the beat goes on,,,,,,,
Ironman - August 13, 2008 03:12 AM (GMT)
Coffee Guy,
Without naming names, who said "I shall be that I shall be"
Dude - August 14, 2008 09:06 PM (GMT)
What if His name was Harvey?
Guest - August 14, 2008 09:14 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Dude @ Aug 14 2008, 04:06 PM) |
| What if His name was Harvey? |
Dude,
I love to laugh.
God knew how to keep us busy with the riddle of his name.
Sure wouldn't want to use his name if he wasn't around though.
Anyway doesn't Harvey sound a little too much like Hadley?
Dude - August 14, 2008 09:19 PM (GMT)
Guest - August 14, 2008 09:31 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Dude @ Aug 14 2008, 04:19 PM) |
| Jamal? |
Dude, I think your getting closer.
To get the general idea,
Try to say something polite while the dentist is drilling your tooth .
Eat the good mushrooms before you say Hallelujah.
Try to say good morning to the police knocking on your door at 3 am.
Ironman - August 15, 2008 12:48 AM (GMT)
daved Posted: Aug 12 2008, 06:35 AM
"Is there any text inspired by God,
in which God clearly preserves His Name as "Yahweh"?"
Certainly no one should be marked and shunned for asking that question, either
Daved, unfortunately this discussion board is already marked and shunned by leadership of ggwo. Any questions arising from discussions will definitely give way to the usual scenario that has gone on for years. Unless I am wrong...........
Guest - August 15, 2008 09:51 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (daved @ Aug 10 2008, 06:47 AM) |
Does Pastor Tom Schaller have rap sessions like Pastor Carl Stevens used to have?
If he does, can questions such as "What text is inspired by GOD?" be freely asked, and discussed.
Can individual Pastors such as John Leonard [if he is available] be approached and asked this question.
|
Daved, This forum is about as close to a real "rap session" as you will ever get from ggwo. If you go to their "fellowship hall" , you will experience another monological event that is certain to dull your senses and grip your mind with the assimilating hunger of subterfuge.
ggwovisitor - August 15, 2008 12:18 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Guest @ Aug 15 2008, 04:51 AM) |
| QUOTE (daved @ Aug 10 2008, 06:47 AM) |
Does Pastor Tom Schaller have rap sessions like Pastor Carl Stevens used to have?
If he does, can questions such as "What text is inspired by GOD?" be freely asked, and discussed.
Can individual Pastors such as John Leonard [if he is available] be approached and asked this question.
|
Daved, This forum is about as close to a real "rap session" as you will ever get from ggwo. If you go to their "fellowship hall" , you will experience another monological event that is certain to dull your senses and grip your mind with the assimilating hunger of subterfuge.
|
So true, what if some GGWO pastors dared to enter this forum and have meaningful dialogue? They might be "marked and shunned" as it is called.
Is this "Brad" and "Lbean" the closest ggwo gets to a "rap session" that is not another sermon?
daved - August 15, 2008 01:40 PM (GMT)
When all else fails,
we can always go to the source that Pastor Carl Stevens was standing on,
when he dogmatically taught that God's name was Yahweh.
Pastor Carl Stevens was trusting in the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria.Wikipedia Article:YahwehAccording to the Wikipedia Article:Yahweh: | QUOTE |
The translation of Clement's Stromata in Volume II of the classic Ante-Nicene Fathers series renders this as:
... Further, the mystic name of four letters which was affixed to those alone to whom the adytum was accessible,
is called Jave,
which is interpreted, 'Who is and shall be.'
The name of God, too [i.e. èåὸò], among the Greeks contains four letters."
|
The Greek font in the last sentence above did not cut and paste very well.
"Jave" is translated from the Greek spelling "Iaoue"
which favors the English translation "Yahweh".
On April 13, 2004, on The Grace Hour, I asked Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Steve Stevens:
| QUOTE |
Do you feel that Clement of Alexandria's teaching is a good foundation for the name "Yahweh".
|
Pastor Steve Stevens answered:
| QUOTE |
Yes we do,
and from what I can tell,
it's accepted by the majority of Christian commentarians as well.
|
The above evidence can he heard on the Grace Hour Archives for April 13, 2004.
On that particular day,
Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Steve Stevens were both trusting in the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria,
as the foundation of their teaching that God's name was "Yahweh"
As to what evidence Pastor Tom Schaller may be standing on,
for his authority to teach dogmatically that God's name is "Yahweh",
I do not know.
Daved
Guest ed - August 15, 2008 01:51 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (daved @ Aug 15 2008, 08:40 AM) |
As to what evidence Pastor Tom Schaller may be standing on,
for his authority to teach dogmatically that God's name is "Yahweh",
I do not know.
Daved |
Daved,
Logical assumption in conjunction with the ever churning ggwomindset leads us to formulate this concise answer:
His dead pastor
Ironman - August 15, 2008 10:15 PM (GMT)
Daved,
The information you continue to post captures my curiosity. Something is very familiar even though I have never studied much about God's name.
I was just thinking of how we cry out to God in the deepest darkest valley of life. I imagine that cry (the sound) of helplessness must be a sweet sound to God, like we are calling his name because He is the only one to help. The sound of His name also could sound like the cry of a helpless infant, I imagine those sounds as from the depth of purity in honesty and then cherish his name. His name means more to me now. Not too sure when I'm in the valley if His name means all of that. Do you get any impressions about His name after studying it?