People who have read my previous posts will know that I really don't care about what happened 20 years ago. I am trying to discover what current policies of GGWO are that are aberrant.

However, it seems that Pastor Schaller's main crime is that he listens to Pastor Stevens tapes. Apparently, it is wrong to to listen or read anything written by a sinner, or someone who got a few things wrong.

If we were to abide by this standard, then we would have to throw away the entire Bible!

To name a few of the authors:

Moses - murderer
David - Adulterer & abused his authority
Solomon - Polygamist
Peter - need we get started?
Paul - executed Christians

It seems that most of the authors of the Bible were not favorable characters. Should we then throw away whatever they wrote?

Johnny,

You're sentimental about Tommy Schaller. You can't count the OT guys. The NT guys repented. Tommy has not and continues to do what he does--and it's a lot more than listening to tapes. But sentimentality has blinded you. Even if we list the facts, you will make excuses. You're free to do what you want. Go in peace.

A few things?
Nice try but no cigar.

And there is the issue of not being repentant also as the previous poster has mentioned.

You are, like guest 300, free to do as you please but keep in mind that defending GGWO's consistant track record of error with deflection is a waste of time here.

We will not let it go unchallenged.

What is the basis of this charge? Is there a discussion or a thread somewhere that I am not aware of?

His main "crime" IMO is that he stole his position by undermining the elders and dividing and manipulating the congregation? He continues to live by the "ends justify the means" ethic that he used to get his position.

That's not going to cut it John 8:7! Carl Stevens teachings are still frequently being broadcast on the Grace Hour radio program. These are the same false teachings that made GGWO an abusive personality cult for decades. These teachings are still wrong and dangerous. If Schaller is serious about reform and wants people to ever trust him again, he needs to publically forsake the teachings of Carl and get rid of those Carl teaching tapes and materials. But he hasn't done that. Schaller to this day has not done jack to stop the pastor worshipping mentality and the false teachings about cover ups for leaders no matter how much they sin. The blind obedience to and the absurd dependancy on pastors still goes on and has never been addressed. Schaller also has never acknowledged his part in stealing the head pastor position from Rodger Stenger after several votes for Stenger to become head pastor. Schaller basically appointed himself to the head pastor position in an underhanded manner and continues to hold that position to this day when he really doesn't have the right to be there. Nothing has really changed at GGWO as Schaller continues to benefit personally from peddling Carl's legacy and false teachings. Schaller is not a man worthy of trust and GGWO should still be avoided at this point.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana -Life of Reason I

They're already "repeating" the past over there at GGWO since they never left that past in the first place. The legacy of Carl continues on as it has for decades.

Coffee guy,

You seem to be another that likes to talk about unrepented sin. You sound just like david munson, twin spirits I presume. Why don't we talk about your sins? They are many are they not? Have you repented of all your sin, especially your lies, because all men are liars (Ps.116:11)? How about the sins of ignorance and the sin of Romans 14:23? How about the sin of Mt. 5:28? What about the sin that so easily besets you in Heb.12:1? Have you been guilty and have you repented and are you cleansed for those sins? The point is that there is a load of sin that can be in anybodies life and that includes you and me. Every person that posts on this sight has some kind of sin in their life and if they deny that they are a liar. And you know that no liar is of the truth. We are all guilty of sin, even in the present tense and that includes hodeuon, john collins, bmore, arguendo, sidethorn, david munson, boss_martain, new kid, guest (me), ironman, lbean, no longer a ggwo wife, john 8:7, Jaded2, antiguest, left egypt in 83 and all the others.

How do you know that you are clean and have been forgiven? What makes you so sure that there is no unrepented sin in your life? Are you Spirit-filled and walk in the Spirit? Boss_martain couldn't care less about any of this stuff, are you like that? Are you sensative to the Holy Spirit when that besetting sin gets the best of you and do you humble yourself before God and ask for mercy and get restored? Do you allow others to do the same or do you judge them differently? Do you use a different standard on them especially if they are a leader or someone that knows better? Where does your righteousness come from and how did you get it? Do you use that righteousness to judge others because of their sin or do you use it to restore others by allowing grace to reign unto eternal life by Jesus Christ (Rom.5:21). Every person that God has saved by His grace and mercy was a wicked sinner with a wicked heart with a death sentence and the wrath of God upon their head. How any sinner could sit in judgement of another sinner is beyond me. The only one that qualifies to judge sinners is Jesus Christ and He came not to judge but to pay for sin and to be judged in place of the sinner.

Hypothetically, your 12 year old daughter is in the youth ministry of your church. You (guest) find out that one of the youth workers had a problem molesting children 2 years ago but the youth pastor assures you that he repented to God and his sin is removed from him. Will you trust the person with your daughter? Would you advise other parents to trust the person with their kids? Or would you recognise that we are all guilty of sin and just let it go?

guest2,

Hypothetically, I have been asked this question before and no one liked my answer, so to give it again would be redundant and just get people angry to the point of calling me all sorts of names. Go fetch!

"I presume" words by guest...posted on Jul 16 2008, 07:33 AM

Ne'er were truer words ever spoken.

And as you have shown you love to help abusers keep abusing by protecting their unrepentant a$$es against any and all forms of "biblical" correction.

You know, like "tell it to the church".

As for David munson he seems to have your number nailed down pretty good.
I would have to agree with his assessment of your lack of concern for other members of our Lord's flock.

You are a respecter of persons in that matter for some strange reason.
You have no corrective words for those who are in a position to inflict the most harm.
Why is that?
Could it be because you are one such person?
I believe it may be so. Your incessant defense of that which is indefensible seems to point to that conclusion.
You avoid the truth of biblical application concerning correction of elders and leadership like it may be some kind of plague.
That is extremely unsound and promotes abuses but you already know that because you are one who promotes those abuses with delight in your heart.

You know the word written but not living.

Yeah that's right Donny because you defend molesters.
You don't think anyone should ever protect the children because in your twisted little mind that would be sinning.

You are a sick little sycophant.

"People who have read my previous posts will know that I really don't care about what happened 20 years ago. I am trying to discover what current policies of GGWO are that are aberrant.
"However, it seems that Pastor Schaller's main crime is that he listens to Pastor Stevens tapes. Apparently, it is wrong to to listen or read anything written by a sinner, or someone who got a few things wrong.
If we were to abide by this standard, then we would have to throw away the entire Bible!
To name a few of the authors:
Moses - murderer
David - Adulterer & abused his authority
Solomon - Polygamist
Peter - need we get started?
Paul - executed Christians
It seems that most of the authors of the Bible were not favorable characters. Should we then throw away whatever they wrote?"
John 8:7 July 15, 2008m 11:31PM


What I think is interesting and ironic is that if carls doctrine about touch not thine annointed had been in vogue, none of these stories would have been written...they were evil reports! I think your idea about the past being irrelevant is not realistic...the past is always in the present...why are you so concerned about a book that is thousands of years old if it were not so?

When it comes to spiritual matters you cannot apply some straightforward, linear, paradigm to separate issues...the things that happened 20 years ago are being fleshed out today in the families they affected. People who don't have homes to pass on to their children. When these wrongs are the direct result of the decietful actions of a founding father for whose legacy money is being solictied "in the HERE and NOW" to preserve for progeny...how is that something that is in "the past"...I think you are very simplistic to say the least. Not that simplistic isn't good at times..but in this case it is used to shut people down instead of being open to their experiences as being just as valid as yours.

Coffee guy,

You won't respond to my post because it reveals something true about all of us. You don't like to be in the same boat do you? Can't identify with sinners and people that make mistakes? Shows what you have in your heart. You and others just can't identify with sin, even when you yourself have an old sin nature that is just as wicked as the next. You know that you are capable of sin just like any sinner, but you are too proud to admit it. That makes you a dishonest person and a liar. Keep judging others and you will be judged. God does not lie. And the same measure you judge it shall be measured back to you again. If you judge according to mercy you shall be judged according to mercy. There is a way for you to judge and that is according to mercy.

david munson,

I am sick according to your own dead conscience but I am right according to the word of God (water), the Holy Spirit of truth (Spirit) and the cleansing blood of Christ (blood). Those are my three witnesses here on the earth (1John 5:8). These three witnesses back me up and establish that which is right before God. All you have is your dead conscience that has never been purged, that accuses or excuses according to sin and its wages.

No Donny,
you are not right to protect a child molester.
That's not biblical in any sense of the matter.
Don't you know what a millstone is and why it was mentioned?

There is no defense of child molesters.
None at all.
You don't know God's heart for children and I hope you never have any for their safety's sake.
In your doctrine you would be required to hand them over to be molested just so the molester felt loved and excepted by you.

Yeah dude,
you are sick to defend that kind of stance.

My conscience would not let me allow that to happen so
my conscience is clear.

No guest, the truth is that I do not submit to your agenda.
You can "spin" it anyway you want but that does not make what you say true.

Not much of what you say is true because of the spin and twist you put on everything and the GG speak that you apply to it.

I can and do identify with sinners.
I also identify with the Word where it says we cannot continue in that sin and expect the Lord to rubber stamp it.

I have "never" claimed to not be a sinner (that is your twisted logic).
I also have never claimed that I can sin and not be accountable for the consequences either unlike those in leadership positions at GGWO.

You need to get your facts straight before you put your foot in your mouth again.

My, as you say, judgement does contain mercy.
It helps others to avoid being abused by the unrepentant leaderships false doctrines/manipulations.
That is very merciful, unlike the coverup that you attempt which would allow for more of the abuse to continue.

You're just plain sick Guest 300! The doctrine you peddle requires people to cover up for child molesters, con artists, cult leaders and others with less than honorable intentions. There is no excuse for this whatsoever. There is nothing in God's Word to justify this crap. You can twist Scripture all you want, but you'll never get us to agree with you on covering up the sins of these creeps so they can freely repeat them over and over again. Child molesters in particular need to have their sins brought out in the open, especially towards law enforcement. They need to be locked up to protect the children If you won't understand that 300, you have no business ever being a parent or getting involved in youth work. I would never let any kids of mine near people with your mentality or GGWO itself. Shame on you Sicko 300!

Seriously guest, GG has a process in place to screen out child molesters from youth work. Do you agree with it or not?

sidethorn,

What do you have, some kind of tag team match going on with david munson and Coffee guy, you bunch of crazy lunatics? Your heads just swirl in this stuff. Who would want to have their mind constantly living in a cesspool of rancid sewer. All it does is corrupt your thinking and your entire soul. You are so obsessed with sin that it makes you mentally sick and unstable. The grace and mercy of God means nothing to you, so don't say it does. You would be lying if you did.

Do you do background checks on every male believer you come in contact with? If you are going to be consistant and operate in what you call integrity don't you think you should? You guys are so obsessed with this stuff, how can you trust anyone. Even if God gloriously transforms a believer, they can not be trusted in your book. There is no church or believer worthy of you and your system of perfect righteousness, now is there! I am surprised that God has not built His church around and upon people like you. If He did, you can be sure the believers would never have a problem with sin or else.

The church would not have to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. If they refrained from sin they could grow in theology and all be just like hodeuon. And if a member of the church did slip up and fall into sin, then you guys would have that covered with repentance and accountability and no one, I mean no one, would get away with sin. I would be anxious to see just how many would come, probably not too many but they would be just like you I am sure. You would make sure that an unbeliever could only be saved by grace through faith in Christ as long as they repented of sin first. Then you would tell them how good God was to send you to tell them to repent first.

guest2,

With the day and times that we live in it is a good policy for an organization to do background checks because of the risk of law suits that could arise even through the appearance of impropriety.

david munson,

What if God called you to minister to child molesters. He knows that you despise what they do but He promises you that He will give you the grace you need to do it. You may have to minister to them behind prison bars or in other facilities. Then He tells you that He died for all their sins also and loves them as much and in the same way as He loves you. He wants to forgive and cleans them from sin just like He did for you. Would you obey God and do it? Or, are they beyond redemption?

This is true. I was screened myself before being allowed to become a GGWO youth worker. I had to fill out a form with background information about myself and turn it in for the investigating to start. Background investigations are a necessary thing in this day and age in a lot of areas.

However to put things in balance, molesters could still very easily get into GGWO's youth ministry and cause harm if they don't have a prior record anywhere. They would slip right through the background investigation process and become workers or even leaders there. The cultic mindset at GGWO's youth ministry that I have personally witnessed for years, molds kids and even workers to never question anything or anyone and not to rely on God given instincts at all. Everyone is expected to blindly obey and believe the best about all authority figures like youth leaders and pastors including John Love himself. An authority figure that was intent on taking indecent liberties with minors would likely go unchallenged for likely a long time as people are taught not to question those in authority. Unfortunately proper safeguards do not exist within the GGWO youth ministry and I cannot and will not recommend it to anyone.

"Unfortunately proper safeguards do not exist within the GGWO youth ministry and I cannot and will not recommend it to anyone. "

Proper safeguards would include accountability of the leaders and we cannot have any of that. These men were raised up by God and if we challenge their behavior, we are challenging God who called them.

Guest 300,
I am confident that He (the Lord) would never suggest that I leave that "molester" alone with a vulnerable child but instead always take proper precautions so that the children would be protected from any possible abuses.
After all there would be a certain history that went along with this persons life wouldn't there and if I ignored that then I would be irresponsible wouldn't I?

That's called "consequences" in that persons life choices that lead to their history of molestation.
They could never be entrusted to be alone with any children up to the day that they passed away.
That's reality,
that's reasonable and wise.

Even though the blood shed may apply to them it's still an act of wisdom to protect innocent children from any possibility of being abused by that person.

How do you not understand that?

Would you hire a former bank robber as a vault security guard?
No bank manager ever would no matter how long they had been out of jail and on the up and up.

Consequences are real and reasonable.

I am obeying God right now and by the way, this site is very little of what I am involved in.
Very little.

You must have a very finite understanding of life if you think that all I do is spend time on and think about this site and it's posts.
Maybe you have spent too much time here to have a reasonable grasp of such things?

You evil pervert.

There is a HUGE difference between "ministering" to a sexual pervert and allowing him/her free reign on children. But you twist it and imply they are one and the same. You sick bastard.

Admit it -- in your mind, one of those "other facilities" is the youth ministry of a local church. You'd rather ram your corrupt heretical perversion of "grace" down someone's throat and allow a pedophile to have access to the children than you would DARE hold ANYONE accountable for their sick, filthy, perverse sin.

You sick bastard.

All the more reason to keep those kids away from Greater Grace! If the leaders think they're infallible, accountable to nobody on earth, only accountable to God but don't even act like it, think they can do anything they want, and that questioning them is questioning God, why should anyone entrust their kids to them at all? Nothing would be left to hinder or prevent a leader from abusing a child if they wanted to. Not a thing I'd want to gamble a kid's safety over!

I know for a fact that at one time, those forms sat in a leaders desk. Nothing was done with them. Orders from on high. Those searches cost money. The wider the search, the more it costs.

The leader used his closest men, those he knew would do as he said to keep this fact from people.

It is one of the things we learned toward the end of our time there. We learned of the abuse of children and teens after we left.

Uncle donny,

If we ran into each other at the plaza, Im pretty sure you could be trusted. Until you reveal the the defensive nature of ggwo, thats when you mark yourself as ignorant. Thank you for your "illaborate" plans to clear the air.

Here is another one for you:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba5pe-ejxsg

Guest of 7:42 AM:

Maybe that's all they did after all, even after telling me they would be doing a background check on me so I could be a youth worker at GGWO. Just collect forms from people wanting to be youth workers or leaders, then tell them they would do a background check and then do nothing much more than file away the forms. Could this have part of GGWO's system of having files on people like was discussed on Factnet around 2-3 years ago? To my knowledge it was supposed to have been Dr. Lewis or John Love who would be doing the background checks on me but that may have been wrong. Sounds like it may well have been more of an effort on GGWO's part to keep files on people than do background checks.

[QUOTE=John Collins,Jul 16 2008, 11:51 PM][QUOTE=Guest,Jul 16 2008, 08:49 PM]What if God called you to minister to child molesters. He knows that you despise what they do but He promises you that He will give you the grace you need to do it. You may have to minister to them behind prison bars or in other facilities
You evil pervert. .[/QUOTE]

You want me to condemn and judge individuals and you get so angry inside when I don't that you have to indict me and accuse me because I don't associate with your premise. Then you state the following presumptuous garbage because it makes you feel good...

Quote: 'There is a HUGE difference between "ministering" to a sexual pervert and allowing him/her free reign on children. But you twist it and imply they are one and the same. You sick bastard.

Admit it -- in your mind, one of those "other facilities" is the youth ministry of a local church. You'd rather ram your corrupt heretical perversion of "grace" down someone's throat and allow a pedophile to have access to the children than you would DARE hold ANYONE accountable for their sick, filthy, perverse sin.'



John Collins,

Your way off base on this one. I shouldn't even have to respond to your wicked presumption, but because words have meaning I'll fill you in. The facility I mentioned would be a treatment center for rehabilitation. Reread the post moron. Your angry with me because you did not like my answer to guest2 who brought up the hypothetical. Then david munson accuses me of defending molesters based on my refusal to answer the hypothetical. So I throw it back at him with a hypothetical calling from God. His answer only defended his position and not the calling. Then he says,

Quote: 'Even though the blood shed may apply to them it's still an act of wisdom to protect innocent children from any possibility of being abused by that person.'

Am I to believe that the blood of Christ only applies and pays for certain kinds of sin? Is the cross only for certain kinds of sinners? Is the sin of child molestation not part of the sins of the whole world? The world may not like this but child molestation is part of their sin, just like any other. Quote: 'The blood shed may apply to them.' Does david munson think that the blood may not apply to their sin? If he does or we do then we all have no hope. If Christ and His blood did not pay for their sin, it did not pay for any sin, which includes ours. If that is true then we do not have God's righteousness, we are still in our sin, we are not saved, cleansed or forgiven and there is no such thing as grace, mercy or redemption, so why did Christ come at all?

The world says once a molester always a molester. Once a rapist always a rapist. Once a sex pervert always a sex pervert. When it comes to murder they can be rehabilitated. When it comes to adultery or fornication, well that's just part of life. When it comes to prostitution, just let them be in their profession. What about all the other sin that men and women commit because of a desperately wicked heart and a sick head? John Collins, did God also say that your heart was wicked and your head was sick as well, or were you exempt from God's diagnosis? I am not twisting, I am asking an honest and truthful question? But don't forget the rest of the post.

I am hitting this side of the subject that you and others refuse and get angry with God about. It gets you so ticked off that God could love them just as much as he loves you. For some strange reason you only believe that God has the power to transform the life of some people. What about the new birth, new creation, new creature in Christ, old things passed away and all things become new? Do these things mean anything to you. Do we believe God, that these things are true at salvation or do we live in unbelief and call God a liar? What does your bible teach you? If you lead someone to Christ and have no idea of their past or the sins they have committed, are they forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ or not? Are they a new creature in Christ or not? Have old things passed away or not? Salvation is no guarantee the person will not sin again but now they have the Holy Spirit that will convict them and guide them into all truth. Are you going to build them up in Christ or are you going to do a background check to see what was in their past. I have already stated my position on background checks in another post, very simple but not indicting.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Donny,
now you show how much a moron you really are.
Previously you defended a child molester but now you try and say that you didn't?
I have a longer memory than you think slick.

You are the presumptuous one Donny dimwit.
You have nothing to complain about because it's you that cannot post without presumption as the driving force.

Who said that the Blood only pays for certain sins?
Not me or anyone else on this forum.
You are making that presumption and no one else and just because a sin is paid for doesn't preclude there being consequences for it now does it?
How many people who have committed murder have repented and found grace but still are incarcerated for their crimes?

You come here with twisted contexts and premise and expect anyone to take you seriously?

You have no clue of reality or of grace.

Your every post proclaims grace "as an excuse" to continue in wickedness without consequence.
You know nothing.

You won't answer this question guest but I will ask it anyway...
and this is not a defense of anyone elses communication with you on the subject of child molestation center.

Just answer yes or no...but you won't I already know you won't...that no one gives you anything in return for your questions...you have never once responded genuinely to anyone's heartfelt questions...not one single time...everything you write is a preformulated speech that is constantly playing in your head...and yet you try to use scriptures to make yourself appear so pious, so "christ-like" towards sinners.

Here is the question...

A convicted child rapist comes to your bible study in prison. He has a glorious conversion experience, he comes to every meeting....leads songs. Finally he is released on parole...he has undergone treatment programs and claims that since he is born again he is a new creature and the old sexual predator is dead and gone.

You accuse some here of believing once a child molester always a child molester.

So that means you believe a child molester can be cured. I am not arguing on either side of the debate...just clarifying your position based on YOUR words...

Here is the question. Yes or No.


Bobby the ex-molestor has been in your bible study for seven years...he has come to your house for dinner with your wife and daughter. Your liittle girl likes him.

Yes or No...Would you leave your girl alone with Bobby if he volunteered to watch her in an emergency? Yes or No.

You won't answer...you'll pontificate to me about how my controversy isn't with man but God and all your other usual garbage.

Okay, lets get down and dirty...

You leave your girl with the former molester because he is a brother who is fully forgiven by the Lord and he is a new creature in Christ.

You come home and your little girl says, "Daddy, Uncle Bobby touched my privates"...

Do you tell your little girl it is not good to accuse a brother in the Lord of sin because Christ died for him and they are under the blood?

This is how your argument plays out in real life.

I have nothing but compassion in my heart for people who have a disposition towards abuse...I know they are in a deep deep bondage of their own...and we have a society full of double standards about sexuality and sexual behavior...

we condemn it and profit from it at the same time....just as many in the pulpit do.

So do you tell your little girl, shhhhhh! or do you go to the police and have your little disciple arrested...and probably yourself as well, for child endangerment because you live in a fantasy land..

No -- you're making that up. And I stand by my post from last night.

What so many keep saying is that you need to stop defending the indefensible and using grace as a license for perverts to continue in their perversion.

I double dog dare you to honestly answer New Kid's question without giving her a lecture. Fine -- God forgave Bobby's sins, he's a new man, etc. So he gets private time alone with your child?

Bobby is forgiven by God so he won't have to go to Hell, but Bobby will not get to spend time alone with any kids that I'm responsible for. That's just plain common sense and being responsible for the safety of children. If you can't understand that one Guest 300, please don't ever be a parent. I sure hope you're not one already!

John Collins,

I am not making that up. That is exactly what you want me to do and I will not do it. You can judge and condemn but I will not do it.

Quote: 'What so many keep saying is that you need to stop defending the indefensible and using grace as a license for perverts to continue in their perversion.'

The above quote is what you want people to believe because you know that there is such a backlash, and I have never said anything like it. I will defend anyone's right to go to God by simple faith and receive grace, for the forgiveness and cleansing of all sin, no matter how wicked that sin is, even to you. If you don't like that then you have a problem with God and the cross of Christ.

New Kid,

I have already been asked and answered those questions before, your just the new kid on the block. I am sure that John Collins or hodeuon has my answers on file somewhere, go ask them or look it up yourself. If that is pontificating, so be it.

david munson,

Reread your own post again and stop being such a stupid man.