The name "Yahweh" has been deliberately left out of the title of this new topic!

I am not positive,
but I believe that Hodeuon will approve of discussing the issue of the name "Jehovah",
sort of in isolation
[as much as possible]
from the issue of the name "Yahweh".

The title of this new topic is:
Is GGWO correct about the name Jehovah?

The topic description is:
Have I been wrong about the name Jehovah?

Over the years, there seem to have been many legitimate issues raised
about the teachings of Pastor Carl Stevens and GGWO.

However the issue that I have chosen to raise has been the "Yahweh" / "Jehovah" issue.

I have been asking myself recently
if I have been on the wrong side of this issue,
in my criticism of Pastor Carl Steven's teaching
especially on the name "(Y)Jehovah"
(e.g. The first letter of Jehovah is assumed to be pronounced "Y" in Hebrew)
but also on the name "Yahweh".

Because there may be more difficult issues concerning the name "Yahweh"
than there are concerning the name "(Y)Jehovah",
to be redundant:
The name "Yahweh" has been deliberately left out of the title of this new topic!

So, the question being raised on this thread is:
Is GGWO correct about the name Jehovah?

On another thread, Hodeuon made the point that while "Yahweh" can be analyzed,
using standard Hebrew verb charts,
it appears that (Y)Jehovah can not be analyzed,
using these same standard Hebrew verb charts,
because (Y)Jehovah is a 3-syllable name
which has has the vowel "o" between the 2nd and 3rd consonant.

It appears that no standard Hebrew verb charts cover this situation.

Daved

Is GGWO correct about the name Jehovah?

Does GGWO have an official position on the matter?

Has their official position changed over the years? If so, why?

If they do, how did they arrive at their position?
Did they thoroughly research the issue and come to an intelligent conviction? If they did, it demonstrates that they truly believe it to be an important issue.
Did they just adopt the position of some reputable scholar (which IMO many churches do)? If they did it this way, it shows that they think it is a secondary issue and any importance they publicly attribute to the subject is for appearances only.


Regardless of GGWO's position on the matter of God's name, does it in any way indicate that all of their beliefs and practices correct or cultic?

daved do you attend another church? What is their position on this subject?
Do you have peace with this new church?

Hi Guest2,

You asked,

Basically, before Pastor Carl Stevens relocated to Baltimore, in 1987,
he believed and taught that God's name was "Jehovah".

Pastor Carl Stevens became aware of new, to him, information in the 1990's
that convinced him that "Jehovah" was a hybrid name
[i.e. a mongrel name]
that had no meaning.

He and his son, Pastor Paul,
both seemed to be studying this new information, at the same time,
and they both reached the same conclusion during the same time period,
and they both started to teach on "The Grace Hour"
that God's name was definitely not "Jehovah"

Pastor Carl Stevens and his son Pastor Paul Stevens
both believed that this was an importent issue.

Pastor Carl Stevens at a later period,
on The Grace Hour,
acknowledged to the listening audience
that he had been in error for over 20 years on this issue.

Guest2,
You also asked:

The position on the name "Yahweh" might indicate a cultic tendency.
The position on the name "Yahweh" is based on scholarly information found outside of the scriptures,
therefore it might be considered to border on the cultic.

The Roman Catholic Church is trusting in the same information.

The position on the name "Jehovah" appears to be a result of the fact,
that more persons have become aware of what scholars have been teaching from the early 1900's,
about the name 'Jehovah".

I now consider Pastor Carl Stevens
to have been an unappreciated "trail blazer" on this issue!

Too late for Pastor Carl Stevens to benefit in this world,
I today, sort of write a praise report of the work Pastor Carl Stevens did,
in correcting in GGWO,
what appears to have been an error that has existed in Protestant Christianity.
since at least 1530 A.D.

Guest2,

I thank you very much for the questions you chose to ask in your reply.

Daved

Hi Out Haus Preachah,

You asked:

Out Haus Preachah

Back in 1975-1987,
I occasionally attended Friday night services held by Pastor Carl Stevens,
at Charlotte Dunning School, in Framingham, MA.

In those years and immediately after,
I do not think I actually had any strong opinion about the name "Jehovah".

I don't think I ever heard Pastor Carl Stevens use the name "Jehovah"
in any of his sermons at Charlotte Dunning School.

Services still continued after Pastor Carl Stevens relocated to Baltimore.

I think that the services became more of an outreach
of "The Bible Speaks" in South Berwick Maine,
after Pastor Carl Stevens relocated to Baltimore.

However, after Pastor Carl Stevens started teaching in Baltimore,
that God's name was not "Jehovah",
there was a service held at Charlotte Dunning School,
in which a hymm to Jehovah was sung. :D

I was never sure of just what was involved
in the choice of that hymm, at that particular time.

I think that The Bible Speaks in South Berwick Maine,
may have held on to their belief,
[probably taught to them years earlier by Pastor Carl Stevens],
that God's name was "Jehovah".

__________________________________________________________________

I think that with the help of some discussions I had with Hodeuon,
in the last few weeks,
I may be just beginning to be free from some false KJBO doctrines,
that I learned about the name "Jehovah",
[on KJBO discussion boards]
in 2002-2003.


Daved

Are all y'all gonna discuss the difference between Issa, Jesu, Jeebus, and Hey-Zeus next? How much does your god have trouble understanding dialects and regional accents? Or is this really a non-issue that a truely universal god wouldn't sweat?

Heathen writes:

To be redundant:

Pastor Carl Stevens definitely did not treat this as:
a non-issue that a truely universal god wouldn't sweat.

However Pastor Steve Stevens,
when he was a co-host on the Grace Hour,
exhibited a much more conciliatory attitude toward Christians,
who, in good faith, call God by the name "Jehovah".

Daved

Heathen,
not that you would necessarily understand but it's about GGWO's claim of being a precise ministry of God's word.
It goes to integrity.

coffee guy wrote:

Just in passing, for a very short period of time,
probably before 2004 A.D.,
Pastor Paul Stevens was calling God by the name "Yahveh" instead of "Yahweh".

Then one day he corrected himself on The Grace Hour,
while mentioning that his father wanted to be very precise on this issue.

Daved

TO EacH Its OwN-----------ReMENTIOn Or ReDEMPTIOn

JeSuS Or jEsUs

I know that I correct someone when they pronounce or spell my name incorrectly.

It's an issue that Daved likes to think about and discuss. If it doesn't interest you, then read another thread or got to another site.

Do you really think you know what God thinks? Or do yu think God can't be God if He wants people know His name?

.

I agree with Daved when he said:
"Pastor Carl Stevens definitely did not treat this as:
a non-issue that a truely universal god wouldn't sweat."

The question that comes to my mind is Why was it important to CHS? I do not think he was a trailblazer on the issue though he might have jumped on the bandwagon earlier than most. In my view, CHS was an opportunist and a salesman and as such he looked for ways to make his ministry appear to be more precise and thus better than others. It also strengthened the trust his loyal followers had in him. I remember how this and other doctrines kept me from respecting other ministries. I do not know if Schaller has any pet doctrines he uses to divide GGWO from the rest of the Church, but Scibelli brings up the GGWO method of confrontational evangelism almost every time he speaks to make the point that the GGWO way is the best way.

guest2 wrote:

While Pastor Carl Stevens certainly taught that GGWO was a "preciseness ministry",
it does appear that as recently as 2003-2005,
there were members of GGWO
that were questioning Pastor Carl Stevens' teaching on the "Jehovah" issue.

As far as I am aware,
there was only one person who posted on FACTNet,
[and claimed to have previously been an ordained Pastor,
although he had not been ordained by GGWO]
who admitted that there was any controversy going on within the walls of GGWO,
concerning the name "Jehovah".

That person was "ensurenow".

My Webpage

At the above link,
on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 6:35 pm:
ensurenow wrote:

Using someone less harsh language,
I would say that I believe that it is true,
that from even before 1611 A.D.
[Note that both Martin Luther and Tyndale believed that God's name was Jehovah]
much of Protestant Church at large has been in error
because of its belief that God's name was "Jehovah"
which is translated from a Hebrew name
that the Jewish people claim has the vowels that belong in another word.
________________________________________________________________________________

It is kind of interesting to note that about two weeks after ensurenow wrote his above post on FACTNet,
Gina from Canada called in on "The Grace Hour, and somewhat facetiously asked:

Both Pastor Peter and Pastor Steve Stevens,
[who were co-hosts that day]
explained to Gina
that it would be a NO-NO for Gina to smack a member of GGWO up against the head,
just because they called God "Jehovah". :D

Daved

But, see, Carl Stevens was *not* a trailblazer on this issue. Other people in evangelical Christianity have understood it for a long time.

Hodeuon

hodeuon,

If others in evangelical christianity have understood for a long time, can you name any of them and approximately when?

Well, I just read this thread and for the first time understand what Daved is talking about. I am glad you are finding resolution, Daved. I actually got some myself when you answered folks questions on this thread. Prior to this, I never understood where you stood on the subject and why you kept discussing it.

Unger’s Bible Dictionary, Merrill Unger, 1957 edition, page 1177.

Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 1975, 2:690.

The Bible: A New Translation, trans. By James Moffatt, 1935, introduction.

Also, you could contact various seminaries: Biblical, Capital, Catholic, Conwell, Dallas, Fuller, Grace, Southern, Southeastern, Southwestern, Talbot, Trinity Evangelical, Trinity.

Hodeuon

Okay, I can see your point about precision in relation to GGWO. They want to appear precise. So if you want to be a good beaker then you want to be precise too.

But if you want to be a good christian, or just a decent human being, why is this important?

This is a problem I see in many here. They're out of GGWO, but they're not. They're like dry drunks who don't drink but still have the alchoholic mindset. These people want to appear precise, with a greater precision than those still in, while thinking they're not still under the old mind controll. Guess what? You're still under the old mind control! This lust for the ability to tell others that they're "off" because they think different than you do is very very much a part of beaker culture.

While on the subject, we could note that precision is not accuracy. Accuracy is hitting the mark. Precision is hitting the same spot (target or not) every time.

Anyway, if god is love, why do you need to bicker about the old pronunciation of an archaic language? And if you want to be that precise, shouldn't you be talking about YHWH and his Ashera, as they did way back when? He used to be married, ya know.

No, that stuff is just written by scholars who want to sell books, who write it as they would have done it. Ancient Near East societies moved from monotheism to polytheism as can be seen by the presence of 'El' in the Canaanite pantheon. If society had moved from polytheism to monotheism, that's not the one they would have picked.

Hodeuon

It is interesting that during Jesus' time on earth, He never mentioned this issue of God's name. He always referred to "My Father" or "Your Father in heaven". Seems as if the name Yahweh or Jehovah was a crucial point, it would have been mentioned at least once by Jesus. Even as he was dying on the cross, He called out "My God my God". Why wasn't he more PRECISE in using God's name?

Good point Jaded2. Jesus did not make a big stink about a lot of issues that Carl Stevens and his men made a very big deal out of along with so many of those fundies out there. Jesus stuck to what was truly important and didn't waste His energy over unimportant side issues. If churches and so many people out there would just follow Christ's example here, there would be a lot less legalism, bondage and division amongst Christians today. Its time for a lot of churches to replace a lot of that preciseness with love and compassion. Then maybe God could use those churches more in truly ministering His best to people.

I think that you may have some small legitimacy as concerns this issue but you broad brush to readily.
I gather from your assumptions/personal observations that you think that to be out of GGWO means to no longer be a member of Christ's universal body with any legitimate concerns to who is harmed by the false teachings that the leadership of said formerly attended organization espouses?

I don't see that there is much in the way of advocacy for the rest of the body,
in your mind,
if one leaves an aberrant ministry.

Is this a correct assumption on my part or are you making some other point as concerns the statements made here?

Why is it important "as a good Christian" to point out inconsistency with the orientation of doctrine?
It is important because incorrect orientation of doctrine leads to error that can negatively effect the personal biblical world view of and the spiritual relationship between a believer and the Lord,
that is why.

Just take a short walk through the archives of
www.carlstevens.org
and you will see how important it really is to make issue of addressing GGWO and the doctrinal error it espouses as well as the denial of it's history as a church that has/is using manipulation and false doctrines.

It has nothing to do with being a good "beaker" at all.
It has everything to do with guarding the flock and caring about the well being of others.

Jaded2, in his July 8 2008, 07:42 PM post wrote:

Jaded2

There does indeed seem to be no evidence that Jesus used either:
the name "Jehovah"
or
the name "Yahweh"
while He was on the planet earth.

However, there is evidence that Jesus used the expression "the LORD"
[for YHWH] ,
when in Matthew 22:44, He quoted from Psalm 110:1

Matt 22:44 in the King James Bible reads:

Psalm 110:1 in the King James Bible reads almost precisely the same:

Daved

Daved,
you are quite a character. If nothing else one has to be impressed by your sheer persistance.
What do you think of Psalm 138:2 "Thou hast magnified Thy word above all Thy name" ?

Hi Jaded2

You asked:

Jaded2

I would probably need a little help from "a preciseness ministry" on Psalm 138:2.

I am not sure if King David was saying that YHWH had magnified his "written" word above His name.
OR
was King David saying that YHWH had magnified the preincarnate "word",
[i.e. the preincarnate Jesus] above His name.
OR
other.

What I was trying to do was to note that Jesus Christ,
with His authority,
had read YHWH at Psalm 110:1,
using a Greek word or words that was translated into English as "The LORD"
in the King James Bible.

Of course this assumes that our Greek copies of Matthew 22:43,
actually preserve the words that Jesus spoke, 2000 years ago.

However if Jesus actually did use a Greek word,
that can be legitimately translated into English as "Lord" or maybe "the LORD",
it would appear that Jesus placed his "seal of approval" on translating YHWH,
rather than transliterating "YHWH".

And more important Jesus appear to have placed His "seal of approval" on translating "YHWH" as "the Lord".

Thus we may actually have a "Jehovah" / "Yahweh" / "The LORD" issue,
and the Jewish people are correct to read "Adonai = Lord",
when they see (Y)Jehovah or "YHWH".


Daved

P.S. Is it safe to assume that "YHWH"s name
and our Heavenly Father's name,
are precisely the same name?

The text below is from a GGWO tape titled: THE DOCTRINE OF NAMES.
[Pastor Carl Stevens preached this message at a Las Vegas Conference in 2000]

Pastor Carl Stevens said:

Note that Exodus 3:15 in the King James Bible reads:

Daved