The topic title of this thread is "Marking and Shunning"

This thread provides a partial transcription of Pastor Tom Schaller's 06/01/08 message,
the first portion of which, covers "marking and shunning".

Marking and shunning appears at first look to be a rather severe discipline.

But is it possible that:
"Marking and shunning", done in the way St. Paul did it, was an act of unconditional love?
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The 2nd half of Pastor Tom Schaller's 06/01/08 message covered the inerrancy of scripture
and mentions GGWO's "our totally dependable Bible"

This 06/01/08 message is no longer available on the internet,
unless you are willing to pay to view it.
__________________________________________________________________________________
At about 26:30 into his 06/01/08 message, Pastor Tom Schaller is speaking about Romans 16:17

Pastor Tom Schaller: So now we come to the verse that I’m really interested in, in verse 17:

There are actually people,
[We’ll do a word picture, with a little diagram here…… this is really edifying for us,]
it’s in 1 Timothy Chapter 1, verse 19:

[Pastor Schaller now creates and shows some hand drawn diagrams to the congregation,
and does some speaking at a low level of audibility]
Pastor Tom Schaller quotes 1 Tim 1:18

Pastor Tom Schaller continues to speak on his own:
That the Holy Spirit in you would edify you and enlighten your mind
that you’ll be able to stand against the opposition, because...
[Pastor Schaller continues to explain the diagram he has drawn.]
Underneath amongst believers there are those
that …the appearance of what they believe is not always obvious to us.

There are two names mentioned here, verse 20 Hymenaeus and Alexander.
These are two believers who have adopted a different way of thinking
and they have caused some believers their faith to be shipwrecked
on their erroneous way,
their erroneous teaching,
even lifestyle,
opinions and view.

These are the two mentioned here.

In Romans,
Paul,
at the end of a very thoroughly,
very specifically outlined doctrinal book,
touching many doctrines in area of great interest,
ends the book,
and says that not everybody is of the same persuasion

I have 3 things to mention regarding differences. Turn back to Romans with me.

Did you get that. I think you got it, didn‘t you...

Pastor Tom Schaller now does a little adlibing,
in his less than perfect quoting of Saint Paul:

>>>
“Holding faith, and a good conscience;
some having put away the faith,

they have put away a good conscience

and they have become hypocritical
erroneous fleshly motivated by something else,

and they have made ship wreck

whom I have delivered unto Satan,
that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Paul the Apostle had the authority from God to say,
regarding these two men,
that they could go on their way
--they could go on their way--
but not trouble the congregation.
>>>

And he told Timothy about them.

Go back to Chapter 16 verse 17:

______________________________________________________________________________
At this point in his message, Pastor Tom Schaller, starts to discuss the inerrancy of scripture.
_______________________________________________________________________________

And I’ll put here one category:
The Word of God is inerrant--inerrant.

The autographs or original writings of the scriptures,
which we do not have
were fully inspired.,
the Holy Spirit moved holy men of God as they wrote the Scripture in 2nd Peter 1:21

Jesus said regarding the Bible, that heaven and earth will pass away
but not one jot or title, an accent mark on a Hebrew letter, would not pass away.

But every accent mark,
every little detail,
every bit of every Hebrew letter were fully inspired of God without error.

It is what we believe about the Scripture.

From those autographs,
or the originals came copies,
and those copies and copies--
We in the New Testament have about 30,000 copies and pieces of the manuscripts

From there we derive the meaning,
we understand what the Bible is saying,
and we say that our scriptures are of this nature,
that the Bible is really above me

[Pastor Tom Schaller raises his King James Bible above his head with his right hand]
and I am submitted to God,
and then I read the Word,
not as critic,
but as a recipient,
as a receiver of the Scripture.

But the theology of the day
has departed largely from believing that the Bible is fully inspired,
totally dependable,
and absolutely perfect in its originals.

We have translations, of course there is not / none perfect.

But we cannot take the Scriptures here

[Pastor Tom Schaller holds the open King James in front of him and below his waist]

that we would analyze and criticize,
and determine on our own subjective self opinion,
biases,
ideas what it is saying,
or to put in it ,
what it is saying.

In the Presbyterian Church, there was a theologian at Princeton University back in the 50’s
he said no,
the Scripture is inerrant,
the Church split and largely the Presbyterian Church has gone in the way of error,
but then there are a number of them that have embraced the teaching of inerrancy

2nd Timothy 3:16;

All scripture is given by the inspiration of God.
God breathed it, God spoke it.

This has caused division, verse 17.

Mark them which cause division

There’s another area, in disregarding the work of the Holy Spirit.

We are those believers that believe that really we can not do anything,
unless it was the Holy Spirit,
that is in regards to our service, and to our living .

We can not live a holy life without the Holy Spirit, and His power

We could not even become a believer unless the Father would draw us

We would not have any conviction of personal sin
unless the Holy Spirit brought that conviction upon a person

We could never be a disciple
unless the Holy Spirit filled us and led us in the understanding of the Bible,
and what it is saying

And again we have a division
where Churches have very little teaching about the Ministry of the Holy Spirit,
and many do believe …in understanding that I cannot do this
unless it was God that would do it.

And so we are those who are assembling together with an understanding,
that our Bible is totally dependable,

[Pastor Tom Schaller neglects to mention “in the originals” this time, as he had mentioned earlier]

and that we need nothing less than God Himself to live in us,
to work through us,
and manifest Himself in us,
through us,
and thereby bear fruit in our lives,
the fruit of love,
divine love,
and joy,
and peace[35:16]
and then the works of grace, the work of God,
the work of Christ through the believer.


Daved

Do you know what service that was 1st 2nd or 3rd?

OR4JesUs?

EdIFiCaTiOn oN ThE MoVE

Hi 1234,

It was the 2nd [10:30 A.M.] service.

When this message was offered for free, it was listed as:

Daved

Sometimes deception is like a mobius loop.

I was just at the church I attend .

It wasnt as hypnotic as usual.

Its amazing I got my hearing back!!!

Thank you all members and guests. :D

You know,

this guy Schaller

he's into what he says

he ain't changing for nobody

he'd die saying these things

funny thing

he's explaining himself

almost accurately

we should shun him

we should mark him

the doctrine of one pastor teacher

geographical will, etc.

nothing about love

it's the same hate

between the Protestants and the Catholics

how many millions were killed?

GGWO has killed us

we're dead to them

but our ghosts haunt them

they can't rest

they have no peace

If any group has ever caused divisions in the body of Christ, it is Greater Grace World Outreach. No group that I've ever seen has gone out of its way to divide people over blind loyalty to it's corrupt leadership and its false doctrine like GGWO has done. Many Christians have lost loved ones and friends because of the slanderous lies and divisive tactics used against them by those in leadership at GGWO. Those in leadership at GGWO have coerced people to mark and shun their own friends and loved ones just for questioning the false teaching at GGWO or simply moving on to another church. If that isn't divisive, what is???? In the Scriptures, we're told to mark and avoid those who cause divisions in the body of Christ. Then, I'm going to have to publically mark GGWO as an organization whose leaders continually cause divisions in Christ's body on earth and avoid them!!!! No indications have surfaced that GGWO divisive policy has changed. Let GGWO be marked as a divider and avoided!!!!!

5678,

Right on. You have stated the pure truth. Thank you!

I second that. Thanks 5678. Looks like Schaller learned the fine art of being a divider all too well from Carl. He's the same kind of cult leader Carl was. He would rather divide people and keep them worshipping men more than God. The legacy of Carl goes on as Schaller, Scibelli, Love and others seek personal benefit from it. The people don't matter. The leaders mean everything there, even more than God Himself. You're so right about those leaders not having peace. They have control and $$$ but no peace since they don't have God right there with them. They pushed God out the door many years ago and wanted to run things their own way. Now they have a dead religeon with no peace as they try to keep alive the legacy of their deal idol Carl.

LeaVe ThIs oPen FoR FutUre Use



Discuss on, Members.

AMEN

When he was in Baltimore, Maryland, and speaking on the Grace Hour,
Pastor Carl Stevens more than once spoke of a large number of staff members
who went against him in Lenox, Massachusetts.

Pastor Carl Stevens seemed to indicate that maybe 50 or so staff members went against him.

I brought this issue up on FACTNet,
because I didn't think that it was possible
that so large a number of staff members could have gone against Pastor Carl Stevens in Lenox,
in one period of time.

Cordell indicated that there was a very large number of staff members at Lenox,
and it was possible that 50 of them could have gone against Pastor Carl Stevens.

Could any one who is postng on DiscussGGWO give any precise details,
as to just what were some of the specific complaints against Pastor Carl Stevens during this period,
in Lenox Massachusetts.

Assuming that the number 50 is at least roughy correct,
is there any one primary issue that these staff members had against Pastor Carl Stevens,
or did each of these staff members have their own particular list
of specific grievences against Pastor Carl Stevens.

Did all, or most all of these 50 or so staff members
end up getting "marked and shunned" by Pastor Carl Stevens himself?

What actually did happen in Lenox, Massachusetts during the 1980's?


Daved

Rom 16:17,18 'Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.'

There are over (30) believers mentioned by name from different locations in Romans 16 and they are to be commended and saluted by the brethren. However the above verse mentions brethren who cause division and offences contrary to the doctrine that was taught them and go around deceiving the hearts of the simple.

You have a Bible in your home and you can read this passage. So tell me, what does this passage teach you and how is it to be applied and who is it to be applied in relationship to? It is in your Bible and you have to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, don't you? Who are the ones that are causing division and offences according to the doctrine that you were taught? What is the doctrine that you were taught that is being divided and offended? How are you avoiding the brethren that is doing this?

While you are at it, tell me what Jesus Christ was talking about in Mat 10:34-37.

'Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

How can a loving God come here and state that He came not to send peace but a sword and cause division in the home and family. Does this sound like the Lord Jesus Christ that you have learned and been taught? One one hand I am to avoid them that cause division and offenses among the brethren contrary to what has been taught and on the other hand Christ is causing division in homes and families. On top of that Christ has taught that my enemy and foe shall be of my own household.

Christ has taught that He is going to cause division in my own household and they will become my enemy. Should I be surprised if this happens and should I say that it is not from God? I am also to avoid those that walk contrary to what Christ has taught because they are out to deceive the simple. If I do not acknowledge and believe what I have been taught, I am not worthy of Christ to be a disciple. When you believed Jesus Christ for salvation did you realize what it would be like as a disciple who takes up his cross? A servant is not greater than his Master. When Christ took up His cross He was forsaken by all. The more we take up our cross the more that we will be ridiculed, despised, less loved, rejected and forsaken of all men including those of our own household. Sound a little bleak and unrewarding?

Hi Guest,

I thought that I asked a rather specific question,
however you chose not to answer it.

I write my question again.

Quest,

I could be guessing wrong,
but I assume that you believe that
these 50 or so staff members that are said to have gone against Pastor Carl Stevens,
actually "caused division and offences contrary to the doctrine that was taught them.

If this is what you believe,
could you give some specific examples
of what these 50 or so staff members were teaching,
that was contrary to what Pastor Carl Stevens was teaching.

I never heard Pastor Carl Stevens give any specifics,
on The Grace Hour,
as to what happened in Lenox,
but he certainly seemed to be hurt by what happened to him.

Daved

Those in Lenox where marked because they stood against the divisiveness of carl
and the division he was causing among brethren by his lies, false doctrines, marking and manipulation of others.

He was teaching contrary to what Christ taught and what is found in the Word of God.

This is the reason that after the move, translated fleeing, to Baltimore that he had a signing of a document allegience to himself.

Daved,
any specifics that he would have given would not have been something you could trust to be completely true.
He lied about everyone that ever challenged him on anything.

Translation of this post:

GGWO is one of the only ministries with infallible leaders and teaching that ever existed. Therefore the leaders of GGWO have a God given right to mark and spread lies about anyone who does not blindly obey them, agree with them, worship them and serve them. Since it is assumed that everything a GGWO pastor says are the very words of God Himself, anyone who disagrees with him is disagreeing with God and causing divisions in the body contrary to the doctrine (GGWO's) that ye have learned. Therefore it is perfectly okay with God to spread lies about and coerce others to permanently shun anyone who disagrees with anything a GGWO pastor teaches whether the person is a spouse, a loved one, a friend, or anyone else. Since GGWO pastors are perfectly in union with God, they get to turn brother against brother, sister against sister, husband against wife, parent against their child, friend against friend. If God can divide people over His truth, GGWO pastors also have a God given right to divide people over their doctrine and loyalty to themselves. Its perfectly okay for GGWO leaders to divide people and yet publicly accuse others by name of being divisive just for disagreeing with anything they have to say. GGWO leaders get to do the very things they accuse others of doing because they're one with God and can live by a higher (I mean much looser) standard. People need to forsake their families, friends and others to come to GGWO and serve the pastors there no matter what the cost.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Sadly, many people attending GGWO and defending GGWO don't.

Hi coffee guy,

You wrote:

coffee guy,

Could you give some specific examples,
of how Pastor Carl Stevens was causing divisons among breathren,
in Lenox Massachusetts?.

What specifically was Pastor Carl Stevens teaching,
"that was contrary to what Christ taught and what is found in the Word of God."

On a side issue, did Pastor Carl Stevens mark any one in South Berwick,
or was marking something that started after Pastor Carl Stevens moved to Lenox?

Daved

From my limited understanding of spiritual abuse, cognitive or not, was resulting from the perception that the holy spirit was in charge. Be of few words.

The two edged sword did not cut the one that handled it? anyone?

How was a GGWO staff member marked in Lenox?

Did Pastor Carl Stevens announce at a "Bible Speaks" Service,
that a particular staff member was being marked,
and from that point in time on,
that staff member was to be shunned?

Did the staff member that was being marked ever get his or her "day in court",
so to speak,
where he or she was able to face his or her accuser "face to face"?

Was the staff member who was marked,
immediately shown to the door,
after he or she was marked?

Daved

Daved,

My spouse was marked and shunned from the pulpit and on the radio. I heard some of it. There was also talk in raps that we did not hear but were told of it by others. We received letters rebuking us. We had some visits, not many, by others, one pastor who came in person to rebuke and accuse.

There was a definite "face to face" to no avail. This happened more than once. We gave up and went away for good.

No, I will not tell you who we are.

I am so sorry that this happened to you and your wife.

As to false teachings contrray to what Christ has taught it has been on record for a few years now.
See
www.carlstevens.org
Concerning those who he marked,
I do not believe it expedient to mention names at present.

Testomies are abundant on this.

From CarlStevens.org:
"A Close Look at The Bible Speaks, released in 1981 and updated in 1983, by The Christian Research Institute, a leading apologetic and cult-awareness group. This report has been instrumental in helping members think clearly about GGWO/TBS. Its careful, objective, well-documented and even-handed approach makes it useful and relevant today when evaluating GGWO and IAGM. The predictions regarding the future of the ministry have proven to be surprisingly accurate."

A few excerpts:

The underlying cause of many of these problems has been TBS' unusual concept of pastoral authority, which tends to both highly exalt the leadership of the ministry and stifle any critical evaluation of their teaching and decisions.

---

In March, 1979, The Bible Speaks contacted us and expressed a willingness to correct any problem areas that might have existed, and a desire to be reconciled with those members of the evangelical community whom they had offended. Our Director, Walter Martin, and Research Consultants Howard Pepper and Elliot Miller responded by engaging in an extensive dialogue with Carl Stevens, President of TBS, and his representatives. We pointed out to the TBS leaders the problem areas we saw in their teaching and practice, and made specific recommendations that we felt would help to rectify the problems that they contacted us about....

As a result of our dialogue with The Bible Speaks, some positive changes were made. However, a few months after the doctrinal statement The Bible Speaks Goes on Record was pub­lished, we began to receive phone calls and letters from Lenox and other cities where TBS branch ministries existed. These essentially expressed the same complaint, concisely stated in the following excerpt from one such letter: "Pastor Stevens is not teaching delegated authority from the pulpit, but one doesn't dare listen to anyone who has anything against the ministry and the leaders; yet it's O.K. for leaders to sin while continuing their ministries."

---

While people were communicating the aforementioned charges to us we were also receiving reports that certain leaders in The Bible Speaks were indicating to their own congregations and to the body of Christ at large (even on the radio in at least one case) that CRI had given TBS a "clean bill of health" as a Christian ministry....

In fact, we never gave The Bible Speaks an unqualified endorsement....

...it was obvious to us that most of the representa­tives of The Bible Speaks with whom we dialogued sincerely desired to change the ministry.

In our estimation there has not been substantial, consistent evidence of a heartfelt repentance and change from The Bible Speaks' old views of pastoral authority.

---

...The negative consequences of the authority emphasis have been telling indeed upon a group which had the potential to be one of the leading youth oriented ministries in the country.

---

As we will soon see with greater clarity, belief in this first promise of an anointing upon every message set up a potential psychological situation of unquestioning acceptance for Carl Stevens' interpretations of Scripture. It also encouraged a dependence upon him if one wanted to receive the progressive revelation of what was considered to be "God's heartbeat" or "God's thought" for the moment.

As with the relationship of the Pope to Roman Catholicism, and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to Jehovah's Witnesses, when an individual or group is esteemed to have a unique link with God that is indispensable for those who desire the fullness of His grace, the potential for excessive devotion to and exaltation of the special "channel" is great.

If you've never read the CRI report, or haven't read it in a long time, I highly recommend it to you.

And remember: CRI first investigated bs at Carl's invitation! I was there, I remember it. The CRI report was only discredited by Stevens AFTER he realized he couldn't manipulate them and get it to read HIS way.

Since I've been out, I have spoken with some of the former bs leaders named in the report. Men who sincerely wanted to see bs serve God and do right. Men who realized Stevens was incorrigible, and who eventually felt they had no choice but to leave...

Daved, read the report. It details numerous specific issues that the leaders had with Stevens, and should answer many of your questions.

Hi John Collins,

You wrote:

I printed out the 49 page 1981 CRI report.
I also re-discovered my own 1983 edition of the report.

The report seems to be more meaningful in 2008,
then it was when I first read it in the 1980's.

There is an awful lot in the report to try to digest.

And even if I digest it all,
won't Pastor Tom Schaller and Guest300 still be saying:
"BACK OFF, THE FRUIT IS GOOD" :(


Daved

Daved,

BACK OFF, THE FRUIT IS GOOD"

THats Exactly What the serpent said Or Was it Eve?

Ok, ok so I'm slow
and no, i don't have a life
ggwo took that away
i'm rebuilding

i'm just sitting her and BAM!
i get it
schaller's title i think
BACK OFF, THE FRUIT IS GOOD"

ok so since when is it a fruit of the Holy Spirit
to yell
"Back off!"
you say that when you are ready to punch someone

you got real love in your heart, schaller
yeah, it really shows
no kidding

if you really have fruit
it will speak for itself
that's the whole point of fruit
it's for people who aren't listening
and go by your actions

and guess what tommy?
you lose
you lose bad
back off?
that's what you say to people
yeah, man, you're really filled with the holy spirit
you're really filled with love
yeah, right...
my dog is more filled with God's love than you

you wanna know what your fruit is?
bitterness
resentment
anger
take some anger management courses, man

i'm not saying 'back off' to you
i say...oh this is funny
i say, draw near
doesn't your book say
if you lift up Christ
it sort of draws people to you?
but you want people to back off
what book are you reading now?

In case you missed it, here's Schaller's "Back Off" Message, March 11, 2007 Sunday morning

Back off Forward March

bAcK on 2BORNOT2B