Greater Grace World Outreach has come under attack on several occasions for preaching what many consider to be aberrant doctrine. As a graduate of Greater Grace Christian Academy and a regular visitor, this is cause for concern. However, after careful study, I have found that most of these claims have little biblical basis.

Specifically I shall analyze, point by point, the latest negative article Evaluating High Control Religious Systems, which was written by David Henke in 2006. Henke concludes:

Though their foundational doctrine is orthodox, their secondary doctrines are definitely aberrant. (Henke, 2006)

It is interesting that Henke reaches this conclusion without citing a single Bible verse, except to explain in general terms Matthew 18. It turns out that many of the doctrines that Henke claims to be aberrant are actually found in the Bible. However, some of his points are legitimate. On the other hand, many of these points have been addressed during the transition from Carl Stevens to Thomas Schaller.

Before we begin this analysis, we must begin with the axiom that all scripture is inerrant. This is not to say that any particular version is inerrant. GGWO believes that the original thoughts of the original authors were divinely inspired. Therefore, careful study of exegesis and hermeneutics is required. If you claim that I am taking the Bible out of context, please educate me on how to interpret the passage properly. Otherwise, you are effectively claiming the passage is irrelevant.

John 8:7,
I welcome your analysis. I don't think Henke's article should be considered a thorough study on the aberrant doctrines of TBS/GGWO. Another thing is just because something is written or spoken from the pulpit mean that it is practiced. CHS taught and wrote for years that you should go to the person alone and then when you did he would lie and slander about you in a rap. The lies and slander about a person would continue for years. That is still practiced today by current leadership.

For anyone to excuse the separation of believers through lies and slander is unconscionable.

Geographical Will of God

This doctrine is found in Hebrews 11:13-16:

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (KJV)

God had called Abraham to go to a certain geographical location. In this passage, this calling is compared to God’s call for us to go to heaven. However, there is a choice. Abraham was not forced to go to Canaan. Similarly, God has a specific calling on our lives where He will optimize our ministry.

This is also demonstrated in Acts 16:6 where Paul wanted to go to Asia. However, the Holy Spirit forbade it. Paul then tried to go to a couple other places, to no avail. Finally, Paul had a vision to go to Macedonia. I believe Church history would have been very different if he went where he originally wanted to go.

God can also give leaders a sense of His geographical will for other people. In 1 Cor. 16, Paul instructs Timothy and Apollos to go to Corinth. Timothy goes without question and “does the work of the Lord.” Apollos resists until a “convenient time.”

Carl Stevens also instructed people to go to certain places because he sensed it was the geographical will of God. However, just like in 1 Cor. 16, some people resisted. I must therefore conclude that leaders have the right to urge people to be in certain geographical locations.

John 87, you conclude wrong, Buddy. Carl used the "geographical will of God' to get as many wage earners together in one geographic place so they could tithe to his church.

If that was true, why did he send out so many missionaries? Missionaries cost him money and very rarely gave back to Baltimore in the form of finances.

Hold on there buddy. tbs,ggwo and iagm DID NOT and DO NOT spend a lot of money on missionaries. I KNOW THIS. So, STFU. You are wrong wrong wrong.

How ridiculous you are

occasionally a door offering WAS taken for a mission team... but chs/tbs/gg did NOT financially support missionaries.

Money that came through the missions office was through donations from others. Maybe you mean money to the missionaries means less money for chs/tbs/gg.

John 87, now you really showed that you are not an insider of GGWo and of little significance. You didn't know, did you? No, you didn't. So sad. Carl didn't want missionaries to go out. How many missionaries do you know well? Most of them went in spite of Carl. He would always say that he needs his best people in Baltimore.

Money? To missionaries? Apparently you don't know Schibelli. He would tell you that when he took over the Missions Office that he was appalled to see how little the average missionary got...he found not all missionaries got the money he got because he was the Lion of Africa. Most missionaries had to work during the summers to pay to go back on the field for the next year. You never saw them eating a full meal at fellowship hall. Check this year at convention. Some of them live on what Baltimorons can't finish eating.

You have no idea, do you?

GGWO did not support their missionaries. The people did. GGWO DID support Schaller to continue his adventures of Huck Finn and did spend big time on Carl to travel in style. The rest of us went hungry..literally!

And isn't it time for 8:7 to head for the plaza?

The verses you quote/refer to are examples of two men (and there are more) that were called to be in a specific location at a specific time in history. Nobody denies that it can be possible for individuals even today. We would not have any foreign (or domestic) missionaries if it was not so. But the doctrine of the geographical will of God postulates that it applies to every believer. The Scriptures does not support this doctrine. You will have to extrapolate it as you just did in your post.

http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:SksGv...&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

so Aussie John doesn't have to paraphrase

John 8:7

While God can call certain people like Paul and Abraham to be in specific locations at specific times, that does not back up Carl Stevens's version of geographical will at all. Carl coupled his teaching of geographical will along with another teaching known as "one pastor for life" which is not supported in the Scriptures at all. There is no support for teachings that a person is commanded to spend the rest of their life in a specific church, under a specific pastor in a specific geographical location for the rest of their lives. That was Carl's twist on it for decades even though that is blatently unscriptural. God directs His people to different locations in different chapters of their lives all the time. What Carl was doing was trying to gather around himself a bunch of docile little servants to fill up his wallet and serve his own desires and never dare to leave him out of fear they would be leaving the geographical will for their lives and risk divine retribution upon themselves. Sadly Carl wanted to be served instead of being willing to be a servant himself.

Damn right that GGWO didn't support it's missionaries because I know for a fact because I had to send money to help get someone back to the states from overseas.
So John don't know s**t you are ignorant if anything.

You have nothing to say.

John 8:7's arguments are too weak to be considered trolling.

John 8:7's arguments are too weak to take seriously at all!!!! Not that I take Guest/Guest 300 seriously either!!! I never did!! Guest/Guest 300's arguments have the same old pastor worshipping or the never question anyone slant that never holds up under any kind of scrutiny whatsoever.

Unless I have missed something, Aussie John has not been insulting to the people here like many of the "guests" from GGWO.

He's asking questions and making points for which there should be reasonable responses.

It's obvious that he doesn't agree with the positions we've taken on the site, but I'm not sure he deserves to be abused.

Arguendo, when did you get a heart, now compassionate? Was it Carl's funeral? :D

What Henke said about this teaching is:

Geographic Will of God – It is taught in TBS/GGWO that God has a will for each individual that includes what church the person is to attend. To attend elsewhere is to depart from the will of God. It is assumed that if you are attending GGWO then you have heard from God that He would have you attend that church. Therefore, if you should leave you are then departing from God’s will. This plants in the mind of each attendee of GGWO that they cannot leave or God will judge them for it. The power of this teaching is primarily fear. It leaves little room for love, grace, freedom, or respect of the individual conscience.

Do you believe and support that teaching?

In your defense of it, you allege it is a Biblical doctrine, and quoted a single passage to prove it. Are there other orthodox Christian denominations which teach this? Or is is a "gg distinctive doctrine" which "you won't hear taught anywhere else"?

John 8:7,

You cite Hebrews 11:13-16 as a defense of the geographical will of God. But it’s describing a specific situation in the Old Testament. It’s not saying, “and keep doing it this way today”. How do you reconcile that with Matthew 28:19-20, “’Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’ Amen.” It says to go. Acts 1:8 says the same.

Your second example in Acts 16:6 does not prove what
GGWO means by the geographical will of God. GGWO uses the geographical will of God to claim that God wants each believer under a particular pastor. Acts 16:6 says that God wanted an apostle to go to one particular place as opposed to another.

Your third example is incorrect. You state, “In 1 Cor. 16, Paul instructs Timothy and Apollos to go to Corinth. Timothy goes without question and “does the work of the Lord.” Apollos resists until a “convenient time.””

1 Corinthians 16:10-12 reads, “Now if Timothy comes, see that he may be with you without fear; for he does the work of the Lord, as I also do. Therefore let no one despise him. But send him on his journey in peace, that he may come to me; for I am waiting for him with the brethren. Now concerning our brother Apollos, I strongly urged him to come to you with the brethren, but he was quite unwilling to come at this time; however, he will come when he has a convenient time.”

Paul does not say that he commanded Timothy or Apollos to come. He doesn’t say what he said to Timothy. He says he _encouraged_ Apollos. Parakaleo. Not commanded. And Apollos evidently felt free to have a different opinion than an apostle and _Paul does not fault him for this_. GGWO reads in a lot of condemnation of apostles and their circles where Scripture doesn’t condemn.

Hodeuon

Don't dis my HG.

Jn 8:7 said the following on another thread:

Posted: Jun 19 2008, 01:16 PM
sidethorn,

If I have this thing all wrong and you are such an expert, how do you account for your sin? What does the cross do for you when you sin? Do you get chastised for every sin you commit? Does God chastise every believer for every sin they commit? If Christ was judged on the cross through death for every sin we commit, then what is the purpose for chastisement?

According to you, we are just as accountable for our own sin as others are for theirs? The last time you sinned against someone did they and others go around demanding that you repent and be accountable for your sin? How did you repent and become accountable? Surely you can be a good example to the flock.

Listen guest, you do not know what you are talking about.

"Listen guest, you do not know what you are talking about."

That's putting it lightely.

Has he done anything to change that? Such as suggest that a missionary minded church as they claim to be should tithe 10% to support missionaries? Like the missionaries often do to support their infernal radio show? Hey -- Viola in New Orleans and Jerry in Montreal sure appreciate the tens of thouands of dollars pissed away this way!

He's STILL the lion of Africa. Note the file name / web address: http://mbcs.edu/files/images/Lion%20of%20africa3.jpg

I think many missionaries still have to work summers to support themselves. Some day, they'll hit 50 or 55... and while all the senior staff at gg own homes and cars, have insurance, etc., the missionaries will wake up and wonder how the f*** they will survive the rest of their lives...

Sorry. I should have explained - that picture is used to illustrate the "missionary in residence" page on the mbc not s website:
http://mbcs.edu/page.aspx?id=90469

The questions were for sidethorn. Do those happen to be tough questions for you also, as a believer whose sins have been put away ? If I don't know what I am talking about, please feel free to correct me and instruct me with your answers.

Thanks Guest2 for quoting the Guest's psychodribble over here. I think this the same clueless Guest troll who's been judging posters on this board for weeks and falsely accusing them too. This would be a far better thread for responses to him especially since part of the title of it is "Abberant doctrine". Guest spews more abberant doctrine than just about anyone who's ever been on this site. What a perfect thread for it!!!

One of Guest's biggest problems and GGWO's for that matter is the complete inability or unwillingness to acknowledge that eternal forgiveness from sin AND discipline/chastisment/accountability are ALL part of a Christan's life, especially if that Christian is a pastor or teacher. The Bible plainly teaches that those who are without God's discipline are none of His!!! God's Word also says that pastors and teachers will be judged by a higher standard, not a minimal standard or no standard as Carl Stevens taught by his example. The Bible also says that we are to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather EXPOSE them. That's what our posting here is all about. Carl and his men have used, abused, and misled God's people and still do. Let them and their works be exposed publicly to forwarn others!!!! Carl and his men wanted covering so they could dodge accountability, let's give them public exposure instead!!!

Finally, this is for Guest. Since you have refused to answer many of my questions for you and the questions others have asked of you, I'm not going to answer your questions here. If you have any intelligence at all and any willingness to think independantly, you can find out all the answers to your questions yourself. Start standing on your own for a change and start thinking for yourself. That's what God gave people brains for!!! Start using your brain and stop having your pastor take you by the hand through life like a little baby. Grow up and take responsibility for your own life before God for a change. Get out of GGWO too before you waste even more years of your life there!!!!

SIDETHORN

The second installment:

Delegated Authority/ Spiritual Fatherhood/ Pastor for Life

This is probably the most controversial doctrine taught in Greater Grace. As David Henke states:

Delegated authority holds that the individual must follow the leadership of their spiritual authority or they are out of God’s will and subject to the attacks of Satan. They must obey even when their own conscience tells them the leader is wrong. The leader will usually say that God will bless you for your obedience even if the leader is wrong, and will not hold you guilty, but will hold the leader responsible. This was the classic defense of the Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg. Its power over the followers is also based on fear and guilt. It leaves the follower open to manipulation and abuse. (Henke, 2006)

However, the Bible does speak a lot about the authority of the Church. 1 Tim. 5:17 explains:

Let the Elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in word and doctrine. (NKJV)

Similar verses can be found in 1 Cor. 16:18, 1 Thes. 5:12-13, Titus 2:15, Hebrews 13. Spiritual fatherhood can be found in 1 Cor. 4:14-20. In this passage, Paul states:

I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church. Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power. What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness? (KJV)

I have to admit, I cannot find any references to the one pastor for life doctrine.

This is an area that Schaller seems to slightly diverge from CHS. CHS would often demand this relationship from people and teach that those who left him are outside the call of God. Furthermore, CHS taught one pastor for life. However, Schaller says that this relationship is voluntary. Pastors are not to demand this authority over anyone. However, believers are called to find a local assembly and a pastor that they can submit to. Pastor Schaller does not demand that this person be himself.

Furthermore, I have never heard Schaller preach one pastor for life.

Now for my conclusions:

It is clear that we should evaluate pastors on the basis of how they preach and teach, and not on the basis of sin. If we were to judge on the basis of sin, we should throw away everything that Paul wrote. I am pretty sure killing Christians for their faith is a sin. If a pastor preaches and teaches according to what the Bible says, then we should listen to them. God has delegated to pastors the responsibility of teaching people truth.

If a pastor begins to preach false doctrine, then that pastor no longer has authority. We can know whether they preach false doctrine if they start preaching something contrary to the Bible. However, if a pastor sins and repents of their sin, they do not lose their authority. I have more to say on what to do when a pastor sins, but I wish to focus on my main point of this section: pastors have authority over their congregation as long as their teaching is consistent with the Bible.

However, a pastor’s authority is limited. They have the authority to denounce sin and to govern the affairs of their church. Outside of this, the pastor’s authority should be taken as strong advice. It is up to us to take the advice or not. I see it much like the authority of the President. He does not have the direct ability to create new laws. However, he can strongly suggest them.

I therefore conclude that CHS may have overstepped his bounds. I cannot find “one pastor for life” anywhere in the Bible. However, Schaller, while preaching spiritual fatherhood, does not demand this relationship with people. Schaller is currently preaching the proper balance of the subject.

sidethorn,

Quote: 'Finally, this is for Guest. Since you have refused to answer many of my questions for you and the questions others have asked of you, I'm not going to answer your questions here. If you have any intelligence at all and any willingness to think independantly, you can find out all the answers to your questions yourself. Start standing on your own for a change and start thinking for yourself. That's what God gave people brains for!!! Start using your brain and stop having your pastor take you by the hand through life like a little baby. Grow up and take responsibility for your own life before God for a change. Get out of GGWO too before you waste even more years of your life there!!!!'

What do the scriptures teach you about the answers to those questions? Do you refuse to answer because you fear the understanding of scriptures would incriminate your own dogmatic criticism and practice of judging others. D you read the scriptures but privately interpret to justify your erroneous practice of slander. Do you avoid the truth of God's own word? Again I will ask you.

If I have this thing all wrong and you are such an expert, how do you account for your sin? What does the cross do for you when you sin? Do you get chastised for every sin you commit? Does God chastise every believer for every sin they commit? If Christ was judged on the cross through death for every sin we commit, then what is the purpose for chastisement?

According to you, we are just as accountable for our own sin as others are for theirs? The last time you sinned against someone did they and others go around demanding that you repent and be accountable for your sin? How did you repent and become accountable? Surely you can be a good example to the flock.

I'm not afraid of the Scriptures incriminating my public exposure of the wreckless and dangerous leadership at GGWO. Not at all!!! Neither are other posters afraid of that. Again I will refuse to answer you!!!! You have no authority here to demand answers to any question you want to throw at people. You demand answers to questions when you are not willing to answer honest questions people ask of you. You falsely accuse others of doing the very things you and your pastor idols at Greater Grace do. You accuse others of privately interpreting Scripture when you and your pastor idols have been doing that for a long, long time. Your hypocrisy and foolishness is very obvious here!!!!

sidethorn,

You don't have the integrity to answer those questions so you refuse.

Coming from a total hypocrite with no integrity that defends a so called ministry that has no integrity, your little rant means nothing!!!!

Answers to questions:

Thank you for correcting me on the missionary issue. However, it is true that missionaries meant there was less money going into the offering plate.
It seems that the main problem people have with the Geographical Will of God is coupling with “One Pastor for Life.” I have addressed this in my previous post as something I do not believe.

Arguendo, thank you for your kind words. Who am I to judge anyone on this site? I have no idea what God is doing in your life. I came here because what GGWO says about this site is obviously biased. I wanted to hear what you have to say directly and not from a third party. Much of what is said here is true, and I agree with it. However, I also disagree with a lot. Am I not entitled to my own opinion?

Hodeuon, you seem to think that being outside the will of God is equivalent to God leaving you. The will of God is simply the decisions we make that will optimize our ministry. Whatever we do, God will never leave us. Furthermore, “there is no condemnation for those in Christ.” If sin does not condemn you, then how can you be condemned by not obeying your pastor? Being outside of God’s will is very different from condemnation.

Collins, a Google search shows 491,000 hits and leads to various different ministries. One hit leads you to a book by Mark Copeland called “The Church Jesus Built” which is summarized on ccel.org.

Guest2, I did not post at 1:16pm today. I was busy at work. This is why I registered with the site. Although I wish to be anonymous, I do not want anyone else confusing me with other people.

BTW, I am curious why I have been named "Aussie John"

John 8:7,
"Although I wish to be anonymous, I do not want anyone else confusing me with other people. "

I hear ya there and I think many here appreciate it.

It eschews obfuscation.

I appreciate it. Thanks John 8:7 for registering. It helps clear up confusion and some of the distraction. I definately respect you for that!!!

Stevens' name and pictures are all over the gg website.

Stevens' name is mentioned many, many times every day on the radio show that gg spends tens of thousands of dollars each month to broadcast.

Stevens' books are sold in their bookstore.

Stevens' videos are shown in the Baltimore church each week.

The gg convention next week will be a sickeningly sentimental journey down memory lane, all about Carl Stevens.

If in fact Schaller differs from the teaching of his mentor and spiritual father, when will he have the g-u-t-z to publicly disavow the heretic he and all gg preachers publicly praise daily?

Collins, you expect perfection out of people. This is simply not possible. In Romans 3, All have fallen short of the glory of God. Pastor Stevens was not perfect, but his ministry led people to Christ and a lot of what he taught is good for us to hear.

Yes, his face is all over the website. Yes, his tapes and booklets are still distributed. Most of them are really good. Interestingly, many of the teachings that I am concerned with have been edited out.

Schaller has a similar opinion. In a rap, he recently admitted that CHS did some things that were 'off'. However, the good that he did far outweighed the bad. Therefore, CHS was still worthy of the double honor in 1 Timothy.

You do not denounce a leader just because he has made a few mistakes.

John 8:7 Pastor Stevens lived a troubled double life. He did not make just a "few" mistakes.

John, a few mistakes? What in the hell are you talking about? Carl personally caused harm to 99% of the people that post here.

And Schaller, as predicted, will point the finger at carl as being "off" (another archaic tbs/gg word I hate) as it benefits tom. All the good WE did still does not out weigh the evil carl did.

Most of carls tapes are perversions of the unadulterated truth of the book. I totally denounce carl stevens because from day one everything carl did was a mistake.

because there is about a 12 hour time difference from where you post and when you posted the link to the wiki article it was regarding austrailian law, which means that wiki recognized your IP address as being from Austraila as opposed to the US when it returned your results. so, it's a guess