Hi,

I have been monitoring this site for a couple months and I have a few comments:

1. If there is so much evidence of child abuse by pastors, why has no one reported this to the police?

It is a basic human right to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. If there is no evidence for criminal activity, you have no right to treat anyone as if they have committed the crime.

2. Even pastors are human.

We have all done things that we regret. The leadership of GGWO has acknowledged on several occasions that they are not perfect. However, it seems the members of this forum want GGWO to broadcast to the world every specific thing that they have done wrong. This is utterly ridiculous and violates the fifth amendment. No organization is required to disclose every mistake they have made.

Furthermore, all pastors are sinful and should not be judged on the basis of sin. Pastors should be judged on the content of their message and the fruit of their ministry. Sin can lead to bad ministry. However, it is not the sin itself, especially private sins, that I worry about.

3. Get out of bondage

While I can understand leaving GGWO, I simply can not understand why you continue to attack GGWO. It seems that you all have developed an obsession. Many of my non-GGWO friends are amazed at the sheer volume of criticism that GGWO is recieving. Even Churches who do worse things than what you claim do not get such a negative response.

ARE YOU DAFT?

No. No evidence of criminal activity. Amazing isn't it? When a whole church works to cover something up, it's hard to find.

Sometimes the abused don't press charges especially if they are told/taught it would displease the leaders. Not saying that happened, just saying it could be that way.

The leaders say they aren't perfect. Whoopie. So that settles it then. What if they said, "We're not perfect, we cheat, we lie, we steal, we get drugs for Carl, we takeover churches, we give leaders positions in their specific area of weakness."
Now, that's more like it.

"Furthermore, all pastors are sinful and should not be judged on the basis of sin. Pastors should be judged on the content of their message and the fruit of their ministry. Sin can lead to bad ministry. However, it is not the sin itself, especially private sins, that I worry about."

(edited) Sorry for what I said here. What I meant was that this"However, it is not the sin itself, especially private sins, that I worry about." is what I have a problem with.

Do you have many non-GGWO friends who were once GGWO friends?
Were they in anyway linked to the administration?
Were they ever missionaries?
Did they get a bogus education through a non-accredited school?
Do they have to live in denial in order to live with their memories?

The friends I am referring to have no link to GGWO.

One is Jewish and has a degree in Mathematics and Physics. He says that you are giving in to irrational fears.

Another is Episcopalian and has a degree in electrical engineering. He is now working on a Masters of Public Policy. He finds your comments incoherent and unreasonable.

Another is Agnostic with a degree in computer engineering. He says that all small religious movements get a similar response.

I have a degree in Mathematics and Physics and I am going to graduate school for Education. Next year, I plan to teach in the public school system. I have been hassled by a couple GGWO people but most of them are being very supportive.

"1. If there is so much evidence of child abuse by pastors, why has no one reported this to the police?"

One case in New Hampshire involving a deacon resulted in a conviction. I personally do not know if there are other cases making their way through the legal system or not. If I have evidence, I wouldn't post it here.

"2. Even pastors are human. "

Sure. I don't care if a given pastor snapped at his kids or wasn't grateful to his wife or whatever. What I care about is when they preach false doctrine and live out bad practices.

"However, it seems the members of this forum want GGWO to broadcast to the world every specific thing that they have done wrong. This is utterly ridiculous and violates the fifth amendment."

Again, my interested is limited to false doctrine and evil practice. The Fifth Amendment protects individuals from the government.

"Pastors should be judged on the content of their message and the fruit of their ministry."

Agreed.

"While I can understand leaving GGWO, I simply can not understand why you continue to attack GGWO."

You should talk to some of the people who were part of The Bible Speaks and/or GGWO for 20-30 years and see what happened to them when they left. How the leadership lied about them. How friends went out of their way to avoid them.

Please, get all sides of the story.

Hodeuon

"One is Jewish and has a degree in Mathematics and Physics. He says that you are giving in to irrational fears."

And he knows this because...his degree in mathematics and physics qualifies him?

"Another is Episcopalian and has a degree in electrical engineering. He is now working on a Masters of Public Policy. He finds your comments incoherent and unreasonable."

Because he doesn't understand the "group think" of GG. Unreasonable? He doesn't know the whole story. Have him read carlstevens.org and all the documentation then have him pass judgement on what people post.

"Another is Agnostic with a degree in computer engineering. He says that all small religious movements get a similar response."

Interesting.

"I have a degree in Mathematics and Physics and I am going to graduate school for Education. Next year, I plan to teach in the public school system. I have been hassled by a couple GGWO people but most of them are being very supportive."

Hassled why, because you're getting a job in the real world? Because they are afraid the world will suck you in? I would hope that most of them are being supportive seeing as the school there can't support you.

Degrees may show intelligence but they don't make a person wise.

Pardon me, but I know several people with degrees, some know Jesus and some don't. They all seem to agree that GG sounds pretty off the wall and have sympathy and empathy for those trying to leave and for those trying to recover.

You can't take all those who post here and lump them into a single, cohesive "you". For example, I don't always agree with everything posted here. I doubt any one posting here does.

If you have specific instances of comments made by specific individuals, I might agree (sometimes) with the allegations of irrational fears, incoherent and/or unreasonable! B)

When we were in bs/gg, we submitted to their belief that we all had to always say the exact same thing. We were taught that expressing a personal opinion which differed from the official church view was negative and evil.

Sadly, we went along.... I'm guessing your friends would be surprised and not really able to understand that, either.

With the gags removed, some do get a bit exuberant (sp?) in expressing themselves. But -- there's no play book being invoked which all participants must commit to. People who were silent for years -- or decades -- have a voice on boards like this. And they have others who will listen and not devalue them, call them evil, or seek to divide them from friends and families because of their experience.

Have you or your friends ever had that experience? Decide to separate yourself from a group (any group you were a member of), and then had those remaining in the group do to them the things done to people posting here?

Worse: have your fiends ever been part of a group who publicly preached one lifestyle yet privately lived another? And then demanded that anyone who knew about the private evil had no choice but to remain silent, because after all, even the evil doers did occasionally do something good?

Epistula's reference to carlstevens.org is an EXCELLENT idea. Maybe neater and cleaner, a bit more organized and antiseptic, etc. Some repitition there as well, since there are dozens of letters from dozens of people around the world, all reporting on similar experiences.

I'm curious -- how about you? Do you/did you have a personal connection with gg? Or just here as an observer?

Sernedipty? As I complete this post, Pink Floyd's "Us and Them" began playing...

Incoherent and unreasonable?

That would be funny if it made sense.

How is it considered "incoherent" to point out doctrinal errors and evil behaviour?
and,,,
how does it apply that it is unreasonable to do so?

Sounds "incoherent and unreasonable" of someone to make such absurd comments from an uninformed position if you ask me.

I am editing out this post. My first response to John8:7 was premature. I should have just asked a direct question but instead I was sarcastic. I learn more about myself than anyone else on this site and after reading another post by John 8:7 realized the sarcasm, however playful, was not necessary.

The fifth amendment was abolished when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

The "sheer volume", as you put it, isn't enough. When GGWO shuts its doors for good, then it will be enough.

Your pastor, Carl Stevens, and his successor, Schaller, are liars and leaders of a cult. It is important to warn others about the dangers of this cult. When a man is worshipped as Carl Stevens clearly is, it's a cult.

I am removing this post because in retrospect it was too tongue in cheek towards John8:7...no malice intended. You responded beautifully.

removed based on another post I removed...none of these edits affects the overall integrity of the thread. Basically I was wondering if John8:7 was just a supporter of ggwo...he has since clarified things very graciously.

Still wonder about examples of irrationality that his friends spoke of.

PS While we are name dropping everything except the names...I have a friend who is a fellow doctor of psychology who treats trauma victims...after fifteen minutes of talking about ggwo...(as a subject over dinner) she instantly understood the seriousness of the psychological abuse.

I told her about the cycle of circular reasoning that I experienced when I was coming out...the fear...the chains.

Obsessed? No! not any more not ever really....cognitive, articulate, understanding?...trying,hope so!...a desire to help anyone else who is afraid?...(one person is one too many) yes!!

Really it isn't obsession that leads me to post here, uggh who needs that...it is more of a sense of accountability.

But for the next four hours I am going to hear a bunch of muscians sing about the dangers of wars and false religions. Hey a few of them are engineers and biologists at their day jobs.

edit clarification...my friend is a fellow at a major urban hospital...I am not a doctor of any kind...

How can the exposure of a very divisive and slanderous pastor worship cult such as GGWO be incoherant and unreasonable? The only reasonable thing to do with a continually deceptive and manipulative group that leads sincere Christians astray is to expose it and their top leaders publicly by name so the rest of the body of Christ can be forwarned to stay away for their own spiritual safety. That is precisely what people have been doing here and need to keep doing until GGWO's leadership truly cleans up their act before God or see's their whole group closed down.

That's called "love-bombing", John. I'm sure an intelligent, well-educated person such as you will know how to research that term as well as the history of GGWO.

And since when is a person with a Math/Physics degree the expert on irrational fear?

When they are asked about their credentials.
:lol:

To clarify my relationship with gg:

I am a graduate of GGCA. For the first couple years of college, I continued to attend an affiliate church. However, that church decided to join IAGM. For over a year, I continued to attend that church.

The following summer, my mother discovered one of my father's past sins and left him. She told us that he had lied to her about it. In reality, he simply hid it as it was not something he was proud of. When asked bluntly, he told the truth. Despite my father's truthfulness, my mother could not forgive him.

At this point, I lost my faith in forgiveness. If there was a limit to my mother's forgiveness for my father, then there would be a limit to my mother's forgiveness for me. Furthermore, if there is a limit for my church's forgiveness of their pastor, then there would a limit to their forgiveness for me. This disturbed me so much that I left the church and turned to alcohol. Eventually, my friends, the same ones that I mentioned above, took me to non-GGWO counseling.

My counselor helped to understand that I can not expect people to forgive others. However, I should still retain the virtue of forgiveness.

I never returned to the IAGM church because, to me, that church represents a lack of forgiveness. This being said, I still attend social events as I am still friends with many of the members. I do not attend any church because I am too afraid of getting involved in another split. I do occasionally visit GGWO, but it is too far away for me to visit regularly.

This brings me to why I am posting on here. I have read through carlstevens.org many times. I know all of the accusations against Stevens and Schaller. However, if God can forgive my sins, He can certainly forgive their sins. It is obvious that many of the members of this site simply can not forgive and let it go. (I recognize that not everyone here thinks alike.)

Concerning false doctrine, one of the tenets of the evangelical movement that I reject is the doctrine of seperation, i.e. one should leave the church if there is false doctrine. However, this makes no sense to me. In physics, different scientists believe different things about string theory. However, they still work together in the same lab. Furthermore, when I was on student government, we had many heated arguments with others, but we never left. Of course, there were some basic principles that we all agreed to, but we do not presume to agree on everything.

I hope that you all step back a moment and wonder whether all of this "exposure" is causing more harm than good.

You can log out at any time.

Allow me to preface this by stating that I appreciate your candor in explaining why you feel as you do. My statements are not meant to invalidate your feelings, but are considerations that came to mind while reading your post.

Hiding something is still a deceptive action and, in effect, creates a lie by omission. Betrayal in a marriage (and that is really what lying is, isn’t it?) is hugely toxic.

There is not (usually) a singular thing that motivates a spouse to end a marriage, but many things of varying degrees. Unless (with full certainty) you are aware of all of the details of the relationship, it is impossible for you to determine if, in fact, there was one reason or cause for the break-up.

I would think that unless you could deceive your mother in the same manner that your father did you would not be capable of damaging the relationship in the same way.

Then there is always the consideration that the relationship between parent and child is much different than between that of husband and wife. I can’t exactly explain it, but being both a spouse and a parent, I can assure you that it exists.

Further, admission of guilt and/or truthfulness when confronted does not necessarily negate the consequences of one’s action. That is a fallacy and one that is handily employed by the ministry in order to minimize accountability.

(I wonder if some of your issue with forgiveness was because of the all-or-nothing way it is defined within GG or the subjective manner with which it is applied.)

You are fortunate to have non-GGWO friends who cared enough about you to see that you got the helped that you needed. Many who exit the group are not that fortunate.

The most important point to consider with regard to GG is that there is not a singular sin that was committed. It is a pattern of sin – a culture of sin. There has not been one singular transgression; therefore, there is no similarity to your family situation. It is not the same set of circumstances. Another aspect that does not compare to your personal situation is that your father admitted his sin. GG did not. In fact, they continue to deny many, many things. Finally, regardless of anything else, there are still consequences.

The biggest point of conflict is that you define a call to accountability as a lack of forgiveness. Your opinion is certainly formed by your experiences, but those experiences took place within a high control group. Outside of the GG environment, people are accountable for their actions and it is possible to be objective about sin.

As far as your comparison of the doctrine of separation to the behaviour of scientists who disagree – it is not a strong arguement. The importance of spiritual matters is much greater than that of theoretical scientific beliefs. False doctrine is a danger to the foundation of Christianity. Espousing quantum mechanics or general relativity doesn’t require rejection of the basic scientific principles. False doctrine often does require the rejection of the basic tenets of Christianity.

Finally, what specifically do you see as harm caused by the exposure of wrong-doing by GG?

John8:7...your post written on May 29 2008, 12:28 AM places your initial posts into a much needed context. Thank you for sharing it. I wish you had started there because it is your own personal story that gives your feelings and opinions the most weight here. I appreciate your friend’s opinions too, it is always useful to see how others see us...but since they are third party, mentioned apart from the connection to your story their "opinion" on the board was alien.

My response to your first post was an attempt to get to whatever reason lay behind that. That reason is your life; your personal story makes all the difference...

This is a limited "cyber" encounter that means many things to many people. Some have a healthy relationship to it, some may not...some might be neutral...but it is a medium, nothing more, for those who desire to "discuss" ggwo. I also agree that many struggle with forgiveness and many do seem, at least if viewed only through the singular lens of their posts, (which is the only view most of us have) preoccupied with ggwo...perhaps even to the point of tunnel vision. That could be because this website is the only place they vent about their experiences....if someone is sitting here twenty four hours a day...they have problem, but that evaluation is not for another poster to make...that belongs to the real world on the other side of the computer screen.

The suggestion that we could all benefit from sitting back and examining our relationship to the web site makes a great deal of sense to me. As for the forum causing more harm than good, I do not think there is any way to make such an evaluation; you would have to speak with everyone who posts and reads and then find a way to measure and qualify the impact of their experience.

When I wonder about questions like that, which I often do, I usually discover it has more to do with my own personal response to something than anything really happening out there. Of course ggwo loyalists argue the forum is harming God's work...which is actually one of the greatest indications to me that the website is of great value.

I am not here because I need to vent or talk about ggwo...not at all. That has passed for me...in fact it was never a big component for me. As for my attitude towards those still in?- I weep thinking of people I miss...people I would love to connect to as human beings...but they will not allow it unless I agree to a contract of silence about any of my perceptions and misgivings about chs and the church movement in general. In short unless I live a lie when I am with them, we cannot be together...in essence remaining their friend means submitting to warped doctrines. It is an irony, that the truth on the inward parts that the Bible says is what God desires, is the very thing I need to repress for those who feel a corporate expression of unity disavows them of the need for that inner unity as well. I do not believe we were meant to live in this constant self doubt...always divided between two worlds.

I see tremendous value in a web forum that helps to articulate these things for the sake of others who are dying of thirst for real friends, real intimacy etc...they won't get those things here, but they will hear that these things are out there for the getting.

There's more on forgiveness, but later.

It's a beautiful day and lately the garden speaks more to me than anyone.

Anon, thank you for being one of the few reasonable people to respond to me. The first person to respond to my original post used a shower of expletives. Hence, I accused him/her of being incoherent and unreasonable. In response:

There is not (usually) a singular thing that motivates a spouse to end a marriage

You are right about this. My father's sin was only the trigger.

Admission of guilt and/or truthfulness when confronted does not necessarily negate the consequences of one’s action.

If this is true, then there is absolutely no reason to admit one's own sin. My father could have easily lied and we would be none the wiser. Concerning individual sin, and even a pattern of individual sins, I see no reason to break a relationship when the sinner is contrite and there is no danger to others.

When I drank, my friends never left me. If they had, I probably would have gone further into my sin. Permanently breaking off relationships only causes people to sin more.

This forum has spoken alot about Matt. 18. It seems that many people on this site want to skip directly to telling the church about people's sin. However, when I read it, there is a process: 1. Go to the sinner alone. 2. Go with 2-3 witnesses. 3. Tell it to the church. 4. Treat them like a pagan.

Now, if a pastor has committed a sin against you personally, then you should go through this process first. If you have already, then produce the evidence. One poster said that "if I had evidence, I would not post it here." How am I supposed to believe you when you will not show me your evidence?

Concerning the harm that this site is doing, this site is causing people not to come to church at all. I have an agnostic friend who refuses to visit any church because of the harsh, and sometimes violent, actions between Christians. We preach love and forgiveness, but we do not demonstrate it.

This is the same friend who says that all new religious movements get the same response. He finds it hard to believe the accusations leveled against GG because the Protestants, the Puritans, the Baptists and the Methodists all suffered similar persecutions. Each time, very little evidence was used against them.

Agreed.

On a board like this, it's very important to distinguish who said what. Someone (several someones?) posting as "guest" repeatedly rail against most who post here. I'm not sure, but I think it was one of them who made that statement. He has submitted several posts to basically defend pedophiles, while attacking its victims. And I think it was within Stevensism's scripture twisting context of "the finished work" that guest said he wouldn't post evidence of pedophilia, even if he had it. More important to protect the pervert than his victims. (And the guest(s) to whom I'm referring have made scores of vicious, evil lies against many here, never proving their charges. Believing he speaks for God though, he implies that his mere mention of a thing should be accepted as proof positive.)

Perhaps you refer to someone else's statement, in a different context? Who said what?

Earlier, you said "I have read through carlstevens.org many times. I know all of the accusations against Stevens and Schaller." Do you feel the documentation on cs.org supports the accusations? Is it sufficient evidence? If not, at what point would it reach critical mass, and tip over to sufficient evidence?

I don't recall them ever admitting any wrong doing in the theft of millions from Betsy, nor in getting her to rewrite her will, etc. That was proven in a federal court. I've never heard any credible evidence to disprove anything from that case, EXCEPT for "trust me" said by Carl and others. I HAVE however heard a first hand account from someone who was coached by Carl, et al on how to lie on the stand....

Just one of many examples, but -- very little evidence? At what point would it reach critical mass, and tip over to sufficient evidence?

"Now, if a pastor has committed a sin against you personally, then you should go through this process first. If you have already, then produce the evidence. One poster said that "if I had evidence, I would not post it here." How am I supposed to believe you when you will not show me your evidence?"

John 8:7, I specifically stated that if I have evidence of clergy sexual abuse, I would not post it here. That's because it would prejudice a legal case.

Regarding false doctrine - that is posted here and at Factnet. Regarding drug & alcohol abuse by the founding pastor - that is posted here and at Factnet. Regarding Carl Stevens' testimony / experience at Worthley Pond - this is posted here and at Factnet

"Concerning the harm that this site is doing, this site is causing people not to come to church at all. I have an agnostic friend who refuses to visit any church because of the harsh, and sometimes violent, actions between Christians. We preach love and forgiveness, but we do not demonstrate it."

Perhaps you haven't seen the posts where love & forgiveness are demonstrated? There are been instances of people who post confronting each other / asking for an explanation for some things that happened when they were both attending. Apologies have been made & reconciliation has been found.

Is it _this site_ that is causing people not to come to church? Or is it finding out that Christianity wasn't really like it was presented as being in GGWO?

"This forum has spoken alot about Matt. 18. It seems that many people on this site want to skip directly to telling the church about people's sin. However, when I read it, there is a process: 1. Go to the sinner alone. 2. Go with 2-3 witnesses. 3. Tell it to the church. 4. Treat them like a pagan."

Many have gone through all the steps. The leadership of GGWO has lied about them. If you'd like to try steps 1 & 2 & 3 over again, I will not try to stop you.

All new religious movements do not get the same response. Most of the people who post here were part of TBS/GGWO. They are not outsiders dumping on a new religion. Many have posted their stories over on Factnet in a thread called Stories. I think that'd be a good place to see where they're coming from. There are also a number of personal testimonies on www.carlstevens.org. Have you seen those?

Hodeuon

Stories thread on FN, started by Steve Quinlan.

John8:7 I just edited out my posts that were overly sarcastic responses to your initial posts. It was not necessary to be so tongue in cheek. I wondered if you were just another ggwo loyalist with a new approach...but since then you have clarified many things. I apologize if I seemed caustic.

About the concern that this site is having a negative influence on church attendance; I don't think the site has any power over people that way unless there is already something inside of them that is questioning the value of the experience to begin with.

Personally, I don't see church going in and of itself as such a powerful index of spirituality. In fact many churches seem to be limiting factors in spiritual development...kind of like the rock in a cookie jar never becomes a cookie just from being in the cookie jar. True change and spiritual growth is an inward response to life...the conditions for spiritual growth are not static or set in stone...it can happen in as many different ways, through as many different venues as there are people. I realize the concept of a church is a major tenet of modern Christianity but I also think it is a concept that has been degraded over time. People place more value on the overt act of “going to church” and forget that the whole point is about the quality of our encounter with one another…with all of the people in our lives.

My leaving ggwo was a result of recognizing how much the false doctrine had clipped my wings and held me down spiritually...my experiences there did not resonate with the way I saw Jesus personally...I had to believe that God cared about that dissonance...that I was not sentenced to a life that was always trying to fit in to a doctrinal paradigm that didn't mirror reality beyond the scope of the ggwo community. I could no longer tolerate all that “like mindedness” the lack of curiosity about life, the glib responses to genuine suffering. Life had become drab and dreary and the idea of an eternity mirroring that experience was unbearable.

It would have taken no faith to stay; just complacency...the decision not to return to Baltimore was a huge leap of faith. I never regret it...and if it took being in ggwo so long to get me to see what I now see and to grow in understanding as I have been, then I can't live in too much regret for being there.

I don’t agree either with those who post continually about ggwo as an evil through and through; it is a religious and social phenomenon that shares many features with other groups and movements including the American government.

But it took a long time for me to reach this perspective- so while I don’t have this pressing need to vent…I support those that do, hoping of course that it won’t become the driving force of their daily life.

I just want to understand the role the ministry and its teachings have played in my own life....I realize there are many people there who seem content. But that does not disqualify the statements of those who have been wounded by many pernicious practices.

John 8:7

Perhaps you are here asking some honest questions. For people to participate in a site such as this and vent so much passion about their experienes is certainly evidence that there are legitimate problems at GGWO.

It's interesting you mention people's college degrees which somehow makes them expert in picking sides in a discussion such as this. Many of us have our degree from MBC&S or SSB or both which I think makes us expert in what's happening there. Unfortunately my degrees aren't worth too much anywhere else, and I envy your friends for receiving an education which will help land them a job.

The argument which states if we disagree then we should just drop it and move on has been voiced here by GG members on occasion. Most of us did leave without saying anything about it in the hopes of moving on. (I was silent for 12 years.) Later we found ourselves shunned and ostracized by friends and colleages after the leadership of the church had launced a character assasination against us. There is testimony that this practice continues.

It's also often mentioned that "pastors aren't perfect." True, they aren't. However according to the scriptures they are more accountable to live an honest life and preach the truth. They are held to a higher standard and I have yet to read a verse that states "If the pastor teaches a false doctrine of grace, abuses his authority, is a fornicator, a liar, a gossip, and a thief, the congregation shall forgive him, no questions asked." The New Testament is peppered with references to avoid teachers who don't live up to the qualifications and their names are often mentioned. It's also interesting to note that at GG it's frequently taught not to judge the pastor because they are "only human" but if someone decides to leave the church they are marked as "evil, influenced by demons, and out of the will of God, members of a conspiracy to stop the work of God, and quitters." Can you see the double standard here? There seems to be much more grace for the pastor's sins than for ex-members, if leaving a church for doctrinal or practical reasons is a sin. At last reading of the Bible I can't see that it is.

Perhaps the discussion often gets a little crazy here (especially if your name is Donny). My opinion is people here have earned that right. But if you're just seeking information concerning the problems at GG there is the Archives section, which includes information regarding Sandy Cove and the errors pointed out by some of GG's most loyal members, and Letters of Disaffiliation written when reforms were not implemented. Some of these letters are also critical of the process by which Tom Schaller became head pastor. I also recommend the Alan Lang Story, and Bankruptcy Court Decision/Elizabeth Dovydenas vs. The Bible Speaks for insight into the character of the founder. And as already mentioned http://carlstevens.org/.

I replied to your post because it seems you may have Questions. My feelings regarding excesses of participation in this site are found in the Members Area under the topic Closure. I'm trying to move to other topics of interest to ex-members and people of faith in general. But I'll openly admit I hate alot of the people at GGWO because of what they did to me and the fact they are a bunch of lying hypocrites. I hate them. (But hey, I'm not perfect either.) The leadership had a golden opportunity to bring reforms and apologize for treatment of ex-members as a result of Sandy Cove but refused. They continue to lie about it, as well as their history, their founder, their churches presumed exalted position in world christianity, and their character assasination tactics used against ex-members including IAGM.

PS. (It was interesting for me to see the reports about the tell all book, What Happened, regarding White House policy on Iraq from an ex Cabinet Member. None of the replies from the White House attempt to prove he is lying, they just make statements about his character and his motives. In politics it's called a non-denial denial. Sound familiar?)

"In 1987, the ministry moved to Maryland and became Greater Grace World Outreach. The diverse urban center located between Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia proved a fruitful ground for more growth."
http://www.ggwo.org/index.php?module=main&action=history

I was out of the country when the great migration south took place. I was told that (instead of submitting to the government authorities to whom he'd appealed by filing for chap 11 protection) Carl Stevens RESIGNED from his postions in bs, and moved to Baltimore. Carl resigned. And he moved. "The ministry" didn't move to MD. CARL did.

Since the geographic will of God is wherever Carl is, pretty soon many OTHER staff members resigned and ALSO moved to Baltimore. Once again -- "the ministry" didn't move -- hundreds of individuals moved.

A NEW church was then founded in MD, ggwo. NOT a continuation of "the ministry" in Lenox, which was bankrupt. A NEW church!

The second sentence I quoted from the gg website could easily imply the move from Lenox was a tactical one, taken just to help "the ministry" grow in the larger urban area of Baltimore. It doesn't overtly state it that way, but seems to imply it.

Since all the leaders of gg are professional speakers, who use words as the tools of their trade, the words they post on their website should be accurate and exceedingly clear, ensuring there's no misinterpretation by casual visitors.

"In 2005, the elders of GGWO unanimously elected Pastor Schaller as the ministry’s Presiding Elder and Pastor."

I WAS there for this one. Actually, in a split decision, the elders elected Rodger Stenger to that position. And then unanimously voted that, despite the initial split vote, they would all abide by that decision. And then the entire congregation was given a chance to vote. The voting was in Rodger's favor (making THREE times Rodger was voted in), until Carl Stevens' public and private hissy fits resulted in abandoning the voting process. (If I somehow misrepresented the sequence of events, someone jump in and correct it, please).

Tom Schaller has publicly stated that Rodger refused the office, as he didn't receive enough votes. Claimed Rodger had determined unless he received a certain percentage of the vote, he would not take the office.

I asked Rodger about that allegation. He denied it. But I've had current gg members quote me the "official" version. I wonder if THEY ever bothered to ask Rodger?

Some time later, in a "public debate" between two "candidates" for the office of pastor (likened to a presidential debate by the moderator), Tom Schaller threatened that if he did NOT become the overseeing pastor of the church, he'd leave, since that's his true calling in life. That was in answer to a question asked of both candidates, "if you lose, will you support the other guy?" Steve Stevens said yes, absolutely. Tom implied if he lost, he'd leave Baltimore.

Overt lies? Maybe not. Lies by ommission, obfuscation and implication? I think so. By pastors, whom the Bible holds to a higher standard of judgement...

Anon Brief,

Quote: 'Hiding something is still a deceptive action and, in effect, creates a lie by omission'

Got any old sins in your life that certain people don't know about you? If you don't, then you must have told everybody. If you have, then it is deceptive and creates a lie by omission. If it is none of my business then God must have put away your sin. If I approached God, who has all knowledge and is everywhere present, and asked Him to show me your sin, so I could tell others what you are or were really like, would He comply or tell me that He has put away all sin? If He tells me He has put away all sin and you know that you have committed sin, does that make God a liar and is He practicing a false doctrine of covering sin? If God covers sin by putting it away, by what authority do you have to expose or even know of it? Maybe John 8:7 would like to hear your answers?

John Collins,

Quote: 'On a board like this, it's very important to distinguish who said what. Someone (several someones?) posting as "guest" repeatedly rail against most who post here. I'm not sure, but I think it was one of them who made that statement. He has submitted several posts to basically defend pedophiles, while attacking its victims. And I think it was within Stevensism's scripture twisting context of "the finished work" that guest said he wouldn't post evidence of pedophilia, even if he had it. More important to protect the pervert than his victims. (And the guest(s) to whom I'm referring have made scores of vicious, evil lies against many here, never proving their charges. Believing he speaks for God though, he implies that his mere mention of a thing should be accepted as proof positive.)'

I am sure, by the content of this post, that you have developed some incredible 'critical thinking' skills and if listening to 'Pink Floyd' and those other cherished rock groups and stars, like 'Neil Young' can do this for you, just think of what it can do for others here. A product of 'Goats Head Soup'. Must be gooooood soup! Did the 'Dude' refer this to you?

On carlstevens.org, there is a letter dated May 11, 2005 where Carl Stevens admits his mistakes and says that certain checks and balances were made to fix it.

This, and especially the fact that he is no longer in control of GGWO, means we no longer need to keep bringing up his faults. However, I do find it interesting that CHS was charged on three counts: 1. Lack of Donative Intent. 2. Undue Influence. 3. Fraud. The lack of donative intent and the fraud was withdrawn. However, CHS was found guilty of undue influence. This is a very interesting law in that undue influence is assumed in relationships between clergy and their congregation. Therefore, the burden of proof was on the defendant and did not have the standard of proof that most litigation requires. If you read the case, Betsy's story was certainly not proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Concerning Pastor Stenger, he said at a meeting I attended that he was looking for a certain percentage to vote for him. No one knows whether this was a majority, supermajority, or 90%. In another church I attended, they did not choose a pastor until consensus was reached.

In the end, Pastor Stenger recieved 5 out the 9 votes on the board of elders and 56% of the congregational vote, which is certainly not consensus. If I were him, I would not take over GGWO with such a low vote of confidence. Therefore, it only makes sense that he stepped down. In the end, the church's story is more consistent than John's. Unfortunately, I have no idea where Pastor Stenger is these days and so I do not have the oppurtunity to speak to him about it.

One reason I have posted here is because my work is bringing me back to Baltimore. I am debating whether or not to attend GGWO. The criticisms that I feel are legitimate are the ostracising of people who leave the church and that people with secular education are looked down upon. People have told me that these things are not as much as a problem anymore. I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and return.

Dude,

Quote: 'I replied to your post because it seems you may have Questions. My feelings regarding excesses of participation in this site are found in the Members Area under the topic Closure. I'm trying to move to other topics of interest to ex-members and people of faith in general. But I'll openly admit I hate alot of the people at GGWO because of what they did to me and the fact they are a bunch of lying hypocrites. I hate them. (But hey, I'm not perfect either.) The leadership had a golden opportunity to bring reforms and apologize for treatment of ex-members as a result of Sandy Cove but refused. They continue to lie about it, as well as their history, their founder, their churches presumed exalted position in world christianity, and their character assasination tactics used against ex-members including IAGM.'

You sound like a rebellious teenager that hates his parents because of how they treated him. Like you have been treated so harshly and above others that you can justify your hate. You don't like it when God says that all things are of Him and for your sake. If you don't like those things you inwardly rebel and later attack and hate those that offended or wronged you. What about when God says that they that love my word, nothing shall offend them? Maybe when you got offended God was trying to get you to love His word and to trust Him! I have seen people close to me act just like you do and they all have their stories and can sware that all these things happened to them. Maybe they did and maybe your closure is you need to grow up. Been spanked by God lately? If you have thank God, because He loves you. If you have not, woe to you or here it comes. You have a heavenly Father, so grow up.

"This is a very interesting law in that undue influence is assumed in relationships between clergy and their congregation. Therefore, the burden of proof was on the defendant and did not have the standard of proof that most litigation requires. If you read the case, Betsy's story was certainly not proven beyond reasonable doubt."

Could you please cite that?

You can say it wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt, but it convinced a federal judge. Then it convinced more federal judges on appeal. Have you read Judge Quinlan's decision? It's very clear that Betsy was lied to.

Hodeuon

beyond a reasonable doubt is a criminal standard

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?typ...30&submit1.y=10

this was a civil case and the standard was likely preponderance of the evidence

http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=1586

Guest:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...ideoid=16906000

bs's lawyer worked hard to get the trial out of the criminal court and into the civil court. He told us that if it went to criminal court he felt certain that ourpastor would be jailed. That's how certain he was that the defense he would have to present was bogus.

John 8:7,

"Unfortunately, I have no idea where Pastor Stenger is these days and so I do not have the oppurtunity to speak to him about it."

I could clear that unfortunate situation up for you. Need to contact him? Do you really want the truth? I seriously doubt it. I am surprised at how conveniently you came up with just too many details of the "official" GG takeover. Funny, the only people who lost contact with those who have left are those who chose to shun them. The rest of us have remained in contact and reunited with the other "shunned ones" three decades long and from Maine to California.

Return to GG if that is what you so desire. Your mind was made up long before you posted here. Godspeed to you.

My information on undue influence came from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undue_influence

Unfortunately, they did not cite themselves.

My point is that it is not certain who is telling the truth. It is a he said/she said story. However, this is enough evidence in a civil case.

It is very interesting that the judge wrote a section on "the distinctions between Steven's statements and church doctrine." The judge did conclude that Stevens' actions were contrary to church doctrine.

This comes to my point. Improper relationships and use of money is not a doctrinal error. It is an error on the part of a leader who is no longer in control.

The only legitimate error that I see on the part of Tom Schaller is the way went about gaining control of the church. However, I actually was in the church during this part of GGWO's history. I do admit that Tom Schaller's followers were over-zealous. One woman screamed "We want Schaller" when Stenger was announced to be Steven's successor.

However, I do not see much error on the part of Tom Schaller himself. The elders made it political when they agreed to a congregational confirmation. If you truly believe that you are the best man for the job, then you are going to lobby other for their vote.

This is very similar to Hillary's situation right now. People are telling her to drop out. However, she still has a chance to win. I therefore understand why she is staying in the race, and appealling to the rules committee to give her more delegates. (BTW, I do not support Hillary, I only support her right to continue in the race.)

Concerning the website:
"In 1987, the ministry moved to Maryland and became Greater Grace World Outreach. The diverse urban center located between Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia proved a fruitful ground for more growth."

This is not a lie. When the the entire leadership of a church starts a new church and sets up shop in another town, it is a continuation of the same ministry. Therefore, The ministry did move to Maryland and Baltimore did prove to be a good place for GGWO to grow.

The notion that GGWO is required to advertise the details of the trial, or exactly why they moved, on their website is non-sensical. Show me one organization's website that advertises their own mistakes.

No Longer A GG Wife,

You opened your mouth and offered some information. Instead of second guessing their motive, if they want what you have, give it to them. Your smart remarks are not needed.

bs did not make mere mistakes, they broke the law. Evidence was indeed presented. Federal courts found against them. Read the court transcripts again.

And the cycle of deception continued in Baltimore Md. Then a split. Viola, iagm was born! Now the decpetion is carried forth by not one, but two, that's two groups!