While GGWO openly professes to be a Bible Believing Christian Church
at the precise same time
GGWO also appears to be an ECF [i.e. Early Church Father] believing Church.

Both Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Steve Stevens [before he left] openly acknowledged on the Grace Hour
that they were trusting in the 190 A.D. Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria,
for support for the GGWO teaching that God's name is "Yahweh".

However the GGWO Statement of Faith fails to mention this
AND
the GGWO Statement of Faith does not state that the Scriptures that are given by inspiration of God,
do not clearly support the name "Yahweh".

No extant Hebrew Text preserves the pronunctuation "Yahweh",
and no extant inspired Greek text preserves either "Iaoue" or "IaBe" in Greek letters.

GGWO DOCTRINAL STATEMENT

GGWO'S present Doctrinal Statement contains the following topics:

ABOUT THE BIBLE
ABOUT GOD
ABOUT JESUS CHRIST
ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT
ABOUT MAN
ABOUT SALVATION
ABOUT THE BAPTISM
ABOUT THE GREAT COMMISISON
ABOUT THE CHURCH
ABOUT ETERNITY

However one seemingly very important topic is missing:
GGWO CHOSE NOT TO ADD THE TOPIC:
ABOUT THE GREEK WRITINGS OF CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA.


Presently GGWO states:

However, to be redundant,
extant copies of the inspired Scriptures fail to provide clear evidence that God's name is "Yahweh"!

If GGWO had added just one additional topic.
that additional topic might have clarified for the reader of their Doctinal Statement,
the source of GGWO's authority to teach that God's name was "Yahweh"

GGWO might have chosen to state:

ABOUT THE GREEK WRITINGS OF CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
While recognizing that the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria
are not considered "to be given by inspiration of God",
Pastor Carl Stevens, the founder of GGWO,
has openly acknowledged on "The Grace Hour" that he trusted in Clement of Alexandria's Greek writings
for at least part of his authority to teach that God's name is "Yahweh".
___________________________________________________________________
That slight addition to the GGWO Doctrinal Statement
would seem to show the reader "more precisely" the foundation Pastor Carl Stevens was standing on,
when he taught in the pulpit that God's name is "Yahweh".

Daved

P.S.

There is much "speculative" information that can be found in scholarly sources that indicate that the original pronuciation of God's name "might" have been "Yahweh" or "Yahaweh" or maybe "Yahveh" etc.

Daved,

Carl Stevens normally figured his own authority was enough to justify any theological position he wanted to take. However, he did have the ability to go look up others with whom he agreed when pressed on an issue. I don't think Carl based his belief on what Clement of Alexandria wrote so much as Clement was an easy authority to invoke when Carl was pressed.

You seem to be making this an issue of inerrancy. It is not. It is, however, an excellent example of how the amount of research Carl put into a matter does not square with the overwhelming level of confidence with which he proclaimed his positions were right and everyone else's were wrong.

Hodeuon

Hi Hodeuon,

You wrote:

Hodeuon,

Actually I think that I am trying to make it a sola scriptura issue.

E.G. Is evidence for the name "Yahweh" found in the inspired scriptures alone,
or has GGWO and others gone to sources outside of the inspired scriptures,
such as the Early Church Fathers.

The Roman Catholic Church also goes to the early Church Fathers
for their evidence that God's name is "Yahweh",
but the New Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967 is up front
in making known that the Roman Catholic Church is basing their teaching that God's name is "Yahweh"
on 2-3 early Church Fathers, and not on the teaching of any inspired Scripture.

While "Yahweh" occurs about 6823 times in the the New Jerusalem Bible,
"Yahweh" occurs "ZERO TIMES" in the Masoretic Text from which the New Jerusalem Bible was translated.

My main issue is that GGWO does not acknowledge up front,
that their teaching that God's name is "Yahweh",
is based on information "that is not known to have been given by inspiration of God".
(e.g. The Greek Writings of Clement of Alexandria]

It may in fact turn out that Clement is correct,
but as I mentioned on another thread
I know of no Hebrew scholar who posts on the b-Hebrew Discussion Board
that can demonstate how prefixing "Nathan" with "Yahweh"
would result in the creation of the theophoric name "Yehonathan".

Hodeoun,

If you can demonstrate how Yehonathan might be created by prefixing Nathan with Yahweh,
we have a whole new ball game.

Two scholarly sources claim it can be done.
1. Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible"
2. The 1901-1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

However the Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906
appears to have copied Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible".

Peter Kirk of b-hebrew and Garth Grenache, the moderator of the YHWH Group Discussion Board
both claim that it can not be done the way Smith indicated it could be done.


Daved

Daved,

It's not a sola scriptura issue, either.

You are leaving out of your summary the fact that the rabbis changed the vowel pointing of God's name so that they would not accidentally pronounce it. Since the vowel points were placed into the text centuries after it was written, they weren't removing anything original by doing so. They stated they made this change.

GGWO doesn't acknowledge very many of their sources. You've established that. I believe you could go on to establish taken many other doctrines uncritically from various people ("gleaning" they call it). But you seem to want to stay on the topic of God's name. How come?

If you do want to concentrate on the topic of God's name, I urge you to contact some Hebrew scholars who do not post on the b-Hebrew Discussion Board.

Hodeuon

Hi Hodeoun

You wrote:

Hodeoun,

Actually I still believe its a sola scripture issue.

When a Protestant ministry teaches as doctrine a name of God that is not found in the Scriptures,
I think they are at best a "Sola Scriptura" PLUS ministry.

However, maybe the issue should be raised at this time, that probably no scholar,
[except maybe Gerard Geroux or Nehemiah Gordon],
believes that the Masoretes pointed the Tetragrammaton with the correct vowel points of God's name,
in any edition of the Masoretic Text.

Even if is true that every Masoretic Text in the world is corrupt,
when a Christian Ministry goes outside of the Scriptures,
to search for what they believe to be an accurate punctuation of God's name,
[because they believe that all Masoretic Texts are corrupt,
and because the Jewish People claim that they no longer know God's name]
and than start teaching that punctuation as God's actual name,
I think that that Christian ministry is under some obligation
to make known to their congregation,
where they found that punctuation of God's name,
that they are now teaching in the pulpit, as accurate.

If the ministry went outside of scriptures,
for whatever reason,
looking for the original punctuation of God's name
they can't just imply that the punctuation of God's name,
that they are now using in the pulpit,
is the actual original punctuation of God's name.

WHAT EVIDENCE EXISTS THAT THE NAME "Iaoue" = "YAHWEH" IS ACCURATE?

Did God decide to raise up Clement of Alexandria in 190 A.D.
to write that God's name is "Iaoue" in Greek letters.

God could have raised up Matthew, or Mark, or Luke, or John. etc.
to have done the same thing in the Greek New Testament,
and it would have automatically become part of the inspired cannon of the church.

Daved

Daved,

Are you applying the same standard to the vowel pointing that produces the reading "Jehovah"? Because that vowel pointing is certainly not original.

"WHAT EVIDENCE EXISTS THAT THE NAME "Iaoue" = "YAHWEH" IS ACCURATE?"

I don't know. Frankly, I don't much care. Before I put any stock in anything Clement of Alexandria said about Hebrew, I'd want to confirm that he himself knew Hebrew.

A case can be made from Hebrew. Similarly, a very, very solid case can be made from Hebrew that "Jehovah" cannot be the proper pronunciation.

"If the ministry went outside of scriptures,
for whatever reason,
looking for the original punctuation of God's name
they can't just imply that the punctuation of God's name,
that they are now using in the pulpit,
is the actual original punctuation of God's name."

But, Daved, since when has that prevented Carl Stevens (or Tom Schaller) from making theological pronouncements with more certainty than is warranted?

Hodeuon

Hi Hodeuon

You asked:

Hodeuon

Certainly the Jewish people today do not teach that (Y)Jehovah has the actual vowel points of God's name, but the author of Sola Scriptura, Martin Luther certainly believed that God's name was written correctly in the Masoretic text of his day. Why wouldn't he? He believed that "All scripture was given by inspiration of God", and he believed that the Masoretic Text of that day was scripture.

Luther believed that the Masoretic text was inspired by God, when he wrote in German, in the early 1500's, that God's name was "Jehouah", and expressed his view that contrary to what the Jewish people believed at that time, God's name as preserved in the Masoretic text could be written.

Of course he was mistaken in his understanding of what the Jewish people believed about the vowel points of God's name, as preserved in the Masoretic Text of his day.

And William Tyndale followed him and wrote that God's name was "Iehouah" in his 1530 A.D. English translation of the Pentateuch.

It does appear that Martin Luther, the author of Sola Scriptura, and William Tyndale both started the Protestant Church off on the wrong foot.

But that was then and this is now. We now live in the year 2008,
and while Pastor Carl Stevens dogmatically believed that God's name was "Jehovah" in 1987,
he just as dogmatically believes that God's name is not Jehovah in 2008.

He appears to be correct in his present view.
He acknowledged to the Grace Hour listening audience that he had wrong for over 20 years.

However that was not the issue being discussed in this thread, although the controversy about the vowel points of God's name, did directly influence scholars such as Gesenius in 1815 A.D. to propose that the Hebrew punctuation "Yahweh" might more likely represent the actual pronunciation of God's name than "Jehovah" did.

Gesenius proposed the Hebrew punctuation "Yahweh"

HOWEVER EVEN ALTHOUGH GESENIUS IS THE AUTHOR OF THE HEBREW PUNCTUATION "YAHWEH" [BASED ON THE SAMARITAN IABE ] GESENIUS BELIEVED THAT THEOPHORIC NAMES SUCH AS YEHONATHAN COULD BE MORE EASILY EXPLAINED, IF YEHOVAH WAS THE ACTUAL NAME OF GOD.

Gesenius comments on Yehovah, relative to theophoric names with Yeho prefixes

Gesenius wrote:

Just in passing one or more Jewish Editors tried to get the Wikipedia Article:Jehovah deleted just a few weeks ago, because they believed it was presenting too much of a Christian point of view of the name "Jehovah". They wanted a more Jewish point of view to be presented on the name "Jehovah".

A large majority of Wikipedia editors voted to let the Article Jehovah to continue to exist, however I did learn a little about the Jewish viewpoint on this issue, in the time that these Jewish editors remained and posted their views.

Daved