At the time my exiting process was beginning, many others were leaving as well. Both in Baltimore, as well as affiliated churches around the world. The Baltimore leaders held a couple of "open forums" to address the issues and concerns. (Yeah, they went about as well as you imagine they would have, given that these were all Carl Stevens' spiritual heirs running the highly controlled meetings...)

I distinctly remember hearing both the church and its leaders described as "open, honest and transparent." Without doing lengthy word studies, consider these terms in light of the way normal people might use such words. Remembering these were leaders of a CHURCH using the words to describe THEMSELVES.

I would interpret it to mean that they would honestly tell the truth. That honesty was to be esteemed as a virtue.

I would interpret it to mean they had nothing to hide -- they would be totally open, allowing the light to illuminate deep into the inner workings. That they would answer any questions, and always tell the truth -- even if the truth might hurt, sadden, surprise or upset someone.

Fast forward a few months. I started reading FN. Yes, I agree, it was often a cesspool. But -- even cesspools fulfill a vital function!

I was surprised, shocked, and then angered to read things there which revealed that MANY people knew the truth LONG before those running the show at the plaza ever considered telling the people in the pew the truth. Those who knew the truth fell into a couple categories. Particularly:

1. The church leaders and elders, who were doing all they could to prevent the congregation from knowing the truth.
   
   They STARTED to tell the truth, such as posting the timeline of "Significant Dates During the Period from July, 2003 through April, 2005". But very soon after it was posted -- it was removed. With no explanation, no reason, no replacement, nothing. Just more hunkering down and denying the truth. Denying reality.
   
2. The other group who knew the truth? Those reading FN! There were FN posts addressing things in the inner sanctum at the plaza which were posted days, weeks, even months before anything was ever breathed about these things publicly at the plaza.

Fast forward to very recent history. Claiming he was leaving us (implying forever), Guest 300 has suddenly reappeared. Posts have been made wondering why. One friend theorized it like this to me in an email, which he has given me permission to share:

G300 may not have believed the statements that Carl was dying until Schaller confirmed them. They literally found out last. The threats are his reaction. He probably didn't address it earlier because he didn't believe it then. Now he's mad that [a] dissidents said it publicly and [b] were right.

We talked about how Carl's death would affect everyone. ...facing tears & nightmares. And if 300 is any indication, the insider tough guys like Veader and Trucker Dan are going to have a hard time. D'Entremont, Foster...the people from Maine...

Have Doris Quelet & David Henke & Wellspring been warned? They could get swamped.

Carl Stevens is dying. Well, so are we! But his death is far more "imminent". There were posts here for quite some time (a couple weeks?) commenting on his recent health status. Yet on GH, they continued to report he was at home "resting and recovering." (When someone is discharged from the hospital and assigned a home hospice worker, that is NOT a sign of "recovering.")

Last week, reports reached the gg leaders which indicated that the word was getting out. So on Wed., they apparently finally admitted it to the congregation. Still more misdirection though when they identified the specific medical condition(s), being unwilling (again!) to tell the truth.

It's sad that the leaders of gg are so afraid of actually BEING "open, honest and transparent," as they've CLAIMED to be.

BTW -- Tom, Steve, et al: I know you have "readers" who monitor the board and report to you. Rather than cuss me out in private amongst yourselves, why not engage in dialog with me? I've tried. You've walked away from me, drove away from me, ignored me, or failed to show up for appointments.

Afraid of the truth? Afraid of honest questions?

The leadership of TBS/GGWO have practiced subterfuge - strategies using misleading lies and deception to achieve the objective of obtaining and maintaining power and control.

Years and years of slander and lies used to alter the reality in the minds of attendees to events and lives of people that left.

Then people start discovering that things didn't really happen that way or people didn't really behave that way. Our "covering" was deceiving us.

Its a vicious cycle - more slander and lies are needed to maintain the altered reality.

Those living in this altered reality have lost their senses. They can get them back but they would have to renounce the false premise from which they have built upon. Namely, Carl and his doctrines.

John Collins,

Just in case you don't understand why you are being ignored. Any average reader could read your posts and know instantly why you are being avoided. Are you so blind and mentally handicapped that you can not discern the content of your own post and know that you don't have an honest motive, toward GGWO, for even normal communication let alone for dialog. Sometimes I wander why I even respond to you on this site. The garbage that comes from your mouth John is just not good for the ear to hear. Those that think like you however, in thier eyes you are a patriarch. Don't be diallusioned. Based on the average reader there is good probability that those in GGWO just don't have the time or desire to hear what you have to say. If I am even close to being right on that, I concur with them.

I for one agree with John Collins, and consider him my mentor in terms of educating me about the gg cult.

Although we were in Lenox, we left before the second reinvention. That being Steven's School to Greater Grace. I was in the first reinvention, from the Wiscasset church burning to the bible speaks.

John C. for Love Guru!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLB1r9lh7gY

Guest,
you vilify John because you know what he says has merit unlike the multitudinous lies that might come from the pulpit of GGWO.
You support those lies and commend those who misuse God's people.

You are the sycophant of the month.

Guest,

"Any average reader could read your posts and know instantly why you are being avoided."

That's a vintage Carl Stevens tactic, to say something outrageous and than baldly assert that the average person would agree with it. It's false when Carl does it; it's false when you do it. It's false when Steve Scibelli does it, when Tom Powell does it, when Jeff Wisot does it.

John is being ignored because your leaders at GGWO are afraid to have a conversation on anything except their own terms, in a situation where they totally control the venue before, during, and afterwards.

It's also typical of Carl and Scibelli and the others to disparage anyone who disagrees with them as mentally handicapped. With the factual errors they make in their sermons, they don't really have any room to make fun of other people's intellect. Why do you want to be like them?

Hodeuon

Geist I agree, John would make a great guru but I think he would decline.

Frankly, guests comments simply prove he is clueless when it comes to discerning reality.

I am often astonished at the amount of research and thoughtfulness that John puts into his posts. He takes time to think things through...and he is delightfully candid when he shares his own feelings.

He could charge money for doing the kind of background searches he does and his ability to navigate the internet is a gift to many of us who are afraid that hitting the wrong button will send us into cyber oblivion.

As a grateful reader I am thankful to John and anyone else who really pays a price in time, thought and personal effort to say things that are not always easy to say.

Here's to all of you...(I am lifting an imaginary glass of wine in your honor).

Cheers!

PS Guest,

You say you don't know why you even "respond" to John on this site?
Show me or anyone here one time when you have ever responded to him.
Like your brethren in the plaza when it comes to those who challenge your doctrine and attitude, you are limited to two behaviors.

You REACT or you IGNORE.

No one here has dialogued with you because you can't read a closed book.
You are not here to try to reason or dialogue...you are here as a polemicist who has a predetermined opinion that you have already decided is the right one.

Well as the saying goes, you can choose your opinions but you can't choose your facts.

No one is trying to talk you out of faith but you are so busy trying to remove the speck of dust in our eyes you can't even see the log you have in your own.

Still writing to you here has helped grow because your posts show me just what a miracle it is that I got out of that mindset. So thank you for showing up.

New Kid,

It's not hard to do what John Collins and others do. It is easy to judge, criticize, slander, malign, disagree, charge others and just plain old gossip. The world does it everyday on the news, online, in the print and in real time making big bucks. It is of the world and is so easy and many love to listen because they are also of the world. The lust of the eyes, the flesh and the pride of life is not going wholesale anymore, it is way above normal retail. It is everywhere and guys like John Collins keep it going in the church and that is why he is avoided. You can give him a pat on the back any time you want. That should make him feel good.

New Kid,

Ask John Collins your questions? Let's see if he will tell you the truth. If I answer you can call me a liar. You respect John Collins and have confidence that he would answer you truthfully. Go to him.

The reason you and the plaza cronies avoid John is the same reason you would avoid me and anyone who doesn't tow the company car; it is because you're phonies who don't know how to love people. I don't need to confront John because your rules for life are not my rules. You use "love according to knowledge" as a liscence to preach down at those who threaten to send you through the thin ice you are used to skating on. Soon you might find yourself in need of a life jacket.

This isn't a club...it's a forum where people are free to discuss ggwo.

That is what pisses you off. You can't manipulate those who post here...we are not gullible to your brand of bs anymore. And you might be in for a surprise one day but unlike you, I refuse to put myself in the place of god in people's lives, including yours.

Your eagerness to pronounce judgements as it has been repeatedly pointed out, tells us more about what you are like and nothing, nothing at all about God.

New Kid,

You were the one asking the questions and I directed you to the source that you trust. Can't advise you any better. Take it or leave it.

"and the deeds of your father you will do..."

In typical fashion, other than ranting and throwing a hissy fit, there's nothing of substance here. Plenty of inflammatory language, but -- to what end?

Since you've "discerned" that I'm obviously both blind and mentally handicapped, I certainly can't get out of this by myself now, can I?

But do you factually document a single thing for me?

What statements of mine are the lies and gossip you seek to charge me with? And if I'm to be proven wrong, you'll have to include the facts to prove that my statements are false, and then to prove you're telling the truth. (Those damned FACTS keep getting in the way, don't they?)

But -- that's not gonna happen. You'll tell me to go read the Bible and find my answers there. But -- my name's not there. Neither is Carl's nor Tom's nor yours. So the general guidelines it may provide don't SPECIFICALLY address the SPECIFICS.

As for being ignored by those in gg -- you embarrass yourself repeatedly with your foolish retorts. I'm not referring to being ignored by the congregants. I'm talking about the people such as Steve Scibelli. I sat there in a plaza church service one day as he blasted all those having anything against him and his church. DEMANDED that they NOT email him, but come to him in person, face to face. I did. And he turned and walked away. Not once, twice.

I can provide other SPECIFIC examples to prove my allegations. My point is, as I wrote yesterday -- they (and you) are like little children playing a game who repeatedly reinvent the rules. Issue a bold challenge from the stage with the microphone -- and then walk away when someone "comes alone."

And remember, as pastors, you and they are to be held to a higher standard.

I remember you challenged people with a list of questions, and said if someone answered ALL your questions, you would answer some of the many questions you'd been asked. Jim Kennedy answered every single one of your questions.

But -- you lied, didn't you? You never did answer any of his questions. Are you claiming the "divine right of kings and gg pastors," so you needn't keep your own word?

"I remember you challenged people with a list of questions, and said if someone answered ALL your questions, you would answer some of the many questions you'd been asked. Jim Kennedy answered every single one of your questions.

But -- you lied, didn't you? You never did answer any of his questions. Are you claiming the "divine right of kings and gg pastors," so you needn't keep your own word?"
---
Like I stated earlier,
this guy has no integrity and proves it with every post he makes the mistake of putting up,
but that is to the advantage of showing the world what the GG pastoral mindset consists of.

Again Guest,
thank you so very much for your service to the the reading public here.
You have helped many avoid the trap of "the legacy".

Guest is one of the best exposers of the GGWO maniputation, brainwashing, pastor worship, cover ups for pastors there and the justification to lie to discredit dissenters that there has ever been. Just read Guest's posts and you can see the same bad attitudes, hypocrisy and false teaching of the pastor idols that run GGWO themselves for their own personal benefit.

I just thought of something. You have REPEATEDLY claimed that you do NOT speak for gg nor its leaders. Yet, you responded to this post in the next-best-thing to an official response. The context of my comment (specifically addressed to Tom and Steve) was clearly concerning the LEADERS of gg -- not the people who sit in the pews -- and pay all the bills.

I referred to being ignored by the church leaders when I went to them alone. Named them by name, so even you should be able to figure out to whom I was addressing the comment.

And you responded to tell me why I was being ignored. Interesting....

Anti guest speculated that you sit in an office at the plaza with nothing better to do than respond to posts on this board.

hmmmm........

Despite this individual's claims that he isn't part of GGWO, I've long suspected that he is a part of it and has been all along. I do not think he's been entirely truthful in his posts and I think he's a die hard insider and defender of GGWO. Otherwise, why would he take such offense at our posts about GGWO?? He's most likely a hard core insider trying desperately to silence critics of GGWO and keep any news of the truth about GGWO from getting out.

Look at the changes in tense in 300's last missive. Much of this was likely written TO 300, not BY 300. The references to posters on the board are often in the third person.

That a very interesting observation. It has totally different markers from his usual fare. Who would have written it to him though? And if they are writing as 300 why bother asking people to address 300 with their responses? It doesn't make sense. Any comments?

It appears that 300 wrote some of it himself.

BUt this was clearly written to him: " I am likely amazed at how one person, who has opposed their efforts, can break down strongholds of so many."

So is 300 suppossed to be the "one person" who is breaking down strongholds...assuming those who post about ggwo in any negative capacity are considered strongholds?
And someone wrote that what he is doing amazed them?

It's most probable that any one who comes on here in defense of GG
"like this guy" is in council with the leadership at least in some capacity.
I'm betting he's is in contact with Schaller to say the least.
Just consider all the damage control messages from the pulpit.
One has only to listen to the service messages to see that there is quite an effect on GG from this site alone at least a percieved threat.
Why else would any of them even bother addressing the subjects in the pulpit that we discuss here if there was no perceived threat?(cockatrice eggs and such)

Looking at guest's post again it becomes obvious that there is some collaboration going on as some of you have noted, his style seems to fluctuate a bit also.

Consider the type of minds that do this kind of thing in defense of unrepentant wrong doing and ask yourself
(this is to the many readers on the sidelines) "is this representative of the nature of Christ and His heart towards people?"

hmmmm... As much as I greatly appreciate the vote of confidence, don't forget -- I'm as full of shit as any idiot behind a pulpit! The major difference is that while I will readily admit it, most of 'em will do everything in their power to try and keep you from realizing the truth about them.

Unlike a loyalist who thinks you should believe them because they said so, I really do try and provide proof for any of the claims I make when I post here. And I'm completely willing to be proven wrong on the things I bloviate about. (Sadly, in nearly three years of posting, I have yet to be told, "you said this, and the facts are that..." My detractors usually seem to think that if they can spit further than I can, that "proves" who's right!)

Meanwhile, I think the facts surrounding Carl Stevens' forsaking the WWBC to go off and establish a new denomination (before my time) is a very important historical point of reference in establishing just what sort of a "man of god" he was. And what sort of legacy he leaves. And the foundation upon which gg is built. Especially in light of the fact that Tom Schaller was there at the "beginning" and has "inherited (or appropriated) the mantle" today.

John Collins,

Quote: 'I just thought of something. You have REPEATEDLY claimed that you do NOT speak for gg nor its leaders. Yet, you responded to this post in the next-best-thing to an official response.'

Is it acceptable for a guest to have an accurate opinion about any given subject? It seems that opinions are a standard rule of communication on this site. Surely, my accurate opinion can find a place of acceptance among the many. John, it was just an opinion not an official response, but if you want to presumably judge it as official, you can do that to, especially on this site.

BTW- Quote: 'I'm as full of shit as any idiot behind a pulpit!'

Is this the kind of attitude you took behind the pulpit in your Dundalk days? Do you really believe that preachers should consider themselves idiots and full of ....? How would that help those in the 'pew' (your word) grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ? Is this how we speak the word with all authority (Titus 2:15)? Sounds like you were building your house their in Dundalk on a manure pile instead of a rock.

Opinions are the standard rule for everything at GGWO, that is the pastors' opinions. It is those opinions that the people are being coerced to follow continually no matter how unscriptural those opinions may be.

Too bad that accurate opinions from the Guest are very hard to find.

Guest, I know you didn't mean to take John's comment out of context...

:-D

Along with the next paragraph as well:
"Unlike a loyalist who thinks you should believe them because they said so, I really do try and provide proof for any of the claims I make when I post here. And I'm completely willing to be proven wrong on the things I bloviate about. (Sadly, in nearly three years of posting, I have yet to be told, "you said this, and the facts are that..." My detractors usually seem to think that if they can spit further than I can, that "proves" who's right!)"

Guest, use facts and prove me wrong on anything I've written, and I will apologize. Empty accusations, no matter how viciously delivered, really don't prove your points.

John Collins,

I know that you do not want me to misunderstand the meaning of your content or quote you out of context. Again, for simply clarification, and I quote you:

'I'm as full of shit as any idiot behind a pulpit!'

Is this the kind of attitude you took behind the pulpit in your Dundalk days? Do you really believe that preachers should consider themselves idiots and full of ....?

I know you may not want to answer your own quote, but don't think for a moment that your answer may incriminate yourself, especially on this site with all your friends. If this is your perception of things you can be honest about your own statements.

arguendo, ...Be Still!

Could you be any more impotent?

I don't think so.

arguendo,

Just strongly urging you to be quiet and let John Collins respond. You can honor that if your heart was inclined.

No. It was an emphatic directive, hence the use of the exclaimation point.

John is not prevented from writing because I choose to write.

And I owe you no honor.

And yet -- here you are, taking the quote out of its context! B)

It's okay. I understand. That's how you were taught hermeneutics.

Twice you've asked your questions. And I am still not going to answer you. Why? Because so many of us have really tried to engage you in a DIALOG. A give and take. A conversation. You have mocked and belittled the entire concept, and overtly declared dialog is not necessary. (If people would just shut up and listen to you and yours preach some more, we'd all be right with God, right?)

I realize you've been ordained by and were involved in a religious system which teaches a pastor, like the pope, is God's emissary on planet earth. (I'd like to believe that when I was a pastor I was never that arrogant. Maybe I was...) But here, on a public bulletin board, you don't get any higher seat / better treatment than anyone else. So you can't dictate what we will/won't discuss.

No -- I'm wrong... You may refuse to enter into a civil conversation, thus dictating what we WON'T discuss. However, YOUR agenda is not MY agenda. As you do with us, I will refuse to answer your questions, so at least you can't dictate what we will discuss. (Besides, what would you do with the answer? Run to your pastor with yet more proof of my transgressions against God's man and God's ministry?)

Fair enough?

Gee -- you're here as much or more than anyone. Numbering yourself among my friends now?

Fella, the only rocks around you are the ones in your head.

He wants to innerogate and indoctrinate just like so many other leaders at GGWO. Its the same old self righteous, arrogant, we're always right kind of attitude that is so prevelant at GGWO. He has no desire to have an honest discussion with anyone, he will only "discuss" as some kind of move to indoctrine someone, interrogate someone, criticize someone, or discredit someone. Its totally one sided where he wants to be in control of things and advance the kingdom of GGWO. Amazing how quick he is to dismiss anything that he or other GGWO pastors wouldn't want to hear as an evil report. Amazing how quick he is to label someone as a slanderer of God's man if they come forward with any true but negative information about GGWO pastors or GGWO itself. He only hears what he wants to hear as he lives in his shell. He's a defender of falsehood and is way too arrogant to admit it or even see it!! He has the same nature as the GGWO pastor idols that he worships and defends.

John Collins,

You have never had to answer any questions posted. It is always your prerogative as it is mine. Anyone can observe the postings on this site whether friend or foe. Furthurmore, I am an individual believer and I report these converstions to no one, nor am I in any leadership position. This is something that you and others have presumed against me from the beginning. I have tried to tell you this many times but you seem to believe what you want. Believe what you want, but what you have surmised is not true.

I hope that has not effected your ego, that I am nothing more than a sinner saved by grace. Maybe now many of you will decide not to bother with my posts, being such a low-life on this elite site of intellectual dialog, extreme reasoning ability and crtical thinking skills. Perhaps you fall in the category of those that God has chosen as ... not many noble. That is certainly not me. Maybe that is why I need the grace and mercy of God more than you all.

Guest,
would you not teach a child the things that can harm him?
Would you not warn them of dangerous things and people or
would you just let God handle it and abdicate your responsibility?

If someone wanted to give a child drugs would you just ignore that and not make the proper "judgement" about it?
Would telling the child the harm that that person is presenting be "evil speaking" of the pusher who would not stop his pushing?

Get the point yet?

Quote Guest,

"Maybe now many of you will decide not to bother with my posts, being such a low-life on this elite site of intellectual dialog, extreme reasoning ability and crtical thinking skills. Perhaps you fall in the category of those that God has chosen as ... not many noble. That is certainly not me. Maybe that is why I need the grace and mercy of God more than you all. " May 20 2008, 01:00 PM

Guest do you think you were given a brain just to prove you were spiritual by refusing to use it?

Imagine you were told you have to have surgery to get rid of cancer and your doctor told you.

"Hey I flunked half of my courses in medical school and just barely passed my boards, but you know what, I prayed this morning and God told me to tell you to trust me!"

On that basis would you let this guy cut you open? Because he prayed about it?

Would you refuse the doctor that worked hard, studied hard, put in the hours using his brain and intellect and critical thinking skill because he did not profess Christ and you viewed him as an elitist?

Can't you see the folly of your reasoning...your brain, your ability to reason, to think critically (to weigh arguments and reach a conclusion that you can accept without coercion from the outside) all of these things are part of what makes us fearfully and wonderfully made.

Oh guest, don't you get tired of bearing these impossible burdens?

Unless you would choose the bad doctor see your disdain for the gifts that we have all been given is a form of psuedo spirituality that gets you off the hook of being a real human being.

New Kid,

Do you think that I am incapable of doing what you do through critical thinking? Naturally speaking, I could be at the top of my class. But that has nothing to do with faith and discernment that comes from the word of God and the mind of Christ. Satan could disguise himself as a good doctor and you would by the package because you have no discernmment. You can't substitute critical thinking skills for discernment, when Satan is the master of that kind of thinking.