closure: n. 1. act or process of closing. 2. closed condition

Is it possible to gain final closure regarding our experience in TBS/GGWO? Is a lack of closure due to an inability to forgive? By forgiveness I not only mean the leaders and members of GG who hurt us, but also forgiving ourselves for being sucked in by the whole thing in the first place. What is the difference between closure and denial?

I have begun to wonder why I'm hanging around here talking about the church all the time. Probably it has been good for me to vent, to say all the things I couldn't when I left so many years ago. It's been good to talk it over with you all.

One reason I've hung around is because I thought it may help somebody out. But after reading the recent survey results regarding changes in the site, it appears there are only 20 or so peolple involved. And how much good does arguing with sychophant idiots really do someone looking in for answers about their church?

Is a daily reminder of what's wrong with GG healthy for exits? Although the nightmares seemed to have stopped, I often find myself thinking about things said here, and even getting angry about it.

On the other hand, it is often a good exchange of topics and information not always directly related to GGWO. It's the only church I have.

Unfortunately, those who may have done the best achieving closure probably do not read this stuff. They are too busy in their new lives to care what happens.

Is this how we appear to those who are looking in?: http://www.switched.com/2008/04/28/youtube...deo-on-youtube/

"Save your neck, or save your brother
Looks like it's one or the other..." Richard Manuel

Hey you are the Dude. You are the one that is to kick back, relax and not worry.

If this place makes you uptight, maybe you should take a break from it. It seems like it is bothering you because I think this is the second time you have mentioned it.

People come here for all different reasons. I can't speak for anyone but me. I post because I think TBS/GGWO is an unhealthy church that does damage through its slander, division and bad doctrines. I am thankful there are forums like this to inform people.

There are a lot more readers than posters, so you can't gauge this site by the number of people that answer a poll.

I was very happy some months ago when someone told me about 2 or 3 of his family members who were reading posts here. And were getting a lot of help. The discussions raised the same questions they often asked themselves, but which of course, never spoke about. Reading things here made them finally admit some of the things they'd probably denied for years. As we all did.

I was much happier when it wasn't much longer before 2 of those 3 were OUT -- in no small part specifically because of the truth they were learning about here.

But wait -- there's more! It wasn't much longer before the 3rd family member was out as well. As far as I know, only one of those three has ever actually posted here.

Arguing with them? Probably not much at all.

Discussions here tend to ebb and flow, often based on "is there a loyalist posting, defending the cause of Stevensism, the no-talk rule, etc.?" If so, they nearly all say the same things over and over, twist and distort the same few verses, throw out the same accusations. Arguing with them seldom actually helps convince them of the folly of their ways.

Then again, you never can tell. I can think of at least one, maybe two former pastors who first began posting on FN to defend TMEMOITW (thanks, Mace), full of spit and vinegar. End result? Two less gg pastors.

While I personally don't think arguing helps further the discussion, calmly answering CAN be of great value. Seldom to the loyalist, but often to those still in who secretly read here. Also valuable to those no longer in, but who are still shell shocked because of what they've gone through. Also valuable to those never in, but looking for information on a gg church they've either attended or been thinking of attending.

Interesting anecdote: the last few months I was the webmaster for ggwo.org, I received quite a few requests from affiliated churches asking me to remove links from ggwo.org to them. (I forget the exact number. I think at least 20, maybe a few more). Several of them were very clear that the main reason they were asking me to do this was because of all the "negative" stuff about gg people were finding online. It was embarrassing them. Some reported people leaving their churches because of things they were reading online.

At this point, other than previously untold anecdotes, there's not a whole lot "new" that can be said. BUT -- continuing the discussion is invaluable. New people visit all the time. They may not spend hours and hours reading posts from months or years ago. But if they come with questions in mind and quickly see those questions raised -- and answered -- who knows how much good it may do?

A perfect example is the "What tipped it for you? about camels' backs and straws" thread. Good stuff!

I found myself asking the same questions about a closure to myself before I came here and read your post. I ended up reading about the subject and realized that first we have to decide what kind of closure we are seeking. There is eg.

Dissociative closure, where we try to bury our bad memories, dissociate those from our mind as if those did not took place at all or happened to someone else. Those people do not write here, unless they realize the burying of the agonized memories is a mission impossible. Dissociating from a part of our past is a way to find a closure, but actually it may lead to all kinds of mental problems.

Well, we do not want that. In order to avoid it we try to achieve a conceptual closure, resulting a clear cut from the GGWO. Unfortunately to achieve it, BOTH PARTIES should meet to analyze what went wrong. Sandy Cove meetings, FactNet and this forum were and are ways to try to find a conceptual closure.

The problem is that the abusive party, the real core of the darkness, does not want to meet with their victims. All we see here is the fanatic loyalists who think that preaching is the answer to everything in life. By preaching to us they try to heal us, corner us, conquer us, pass a devine retribution upon us or chase us away. It does not matter to them which one of the options take place. They are wannabe heroes, in their imagination they are Gideon's army. Winning for their understanding of God. When nothing happens and they keep receiving resistance from the people that only try to find a closure, they get frustrated and disappear (only to reappear again, because their method can not be wrong, can it?).

If you are expecting the leaders of the GGWO to appear here let alone that you would hear a proper apology and see changes in the church polity and doctrines, don't hold your breath. I don't think it will ever happen.

Then there are some that try find a retributive closure. The quilty party has to be punished in one way or another. It is therapeutic to them to see even a hint of justice taking place or if they can detect a pending law suit against the GGWO or they may even try to collect evidence by themselves to raise a law suit. This is only a way to find a closure. I do not like it, but I understand it.

If we expected there was an easy answer to find a closure for our experiences in the cave, mother ship, bubble or whatever you want to call it, we are bound to be disappointed. Finding the balance between talking and pondering is the best therapy in my mind. Vent if you have to, preach or quote verses, share your experiences in the cave or in your recovery process, etc. And first of all, talk to God.

Whatever we do, the most therapeutic thing is to know there are others, who have experienced the same abuse as we have. They know what we talk about. On the painful side we also understand there are those who are still in the cave, giving standing ovations to their abusers. If it is not for anything else, talk and write for their sake.

(Edited to remove a sentence with a wrong term and to correct typos)

Whenever I bring up the subject of my former experience with an abusive church to a new Christian acquaintance, a pastor, or church core leader they always look at me a little strangely, draw back, and I have the distinct impression they think something is wrong with me. I believe they take it as a sign of spiritual weakness in me. Of course, if they have never had experience with church abuse they have no point of reference. I guess I am looking for a safe church home where the leadership can deal with it. Even just one mature Christian friend would help me move toward closure. Until then I keep leaving churches. So far, only former ggwo/bible speakers can relate to my experiences and handle my need to disclose.

Dude,

Thanks for bringing up these questions, I think they are helpful. I quite agree with what John and Sibiricus said and want to add my own .02 .

I only recently joined, although I have very occasionally lurked in the past. For me I think this was a step of freedom, among other things - hey, I'm NOT evil and I CAN talk to others.

Now, when I just said that, you probably know exactly what I meant (or someone else reading does), and that is helpful to me.

One of the most powerful ideas I've come across in the last couple of years as relates to the whole transition "out" is: most people experience a socially-defined reality. I do not think of this as bad, but as just part of the scheme of things, whether the social reality that takes up part of our time, identity and emotional energy is VFW member, Ravens fan, U2 fan, beleagured office worker at corporation x, soccer mom at xyz PTA, ex-GG'er, etc.

As for me - while I do not want my life to be about the past, I also do not want to write off 30 or so years of it, either. I think you correctly identify such write-offs as denial. I'm trying to learn how to integrate it all - my past experiences, who I am today and what my life is about now. That is another reason I decided to stop by now and again, to be more active in trying to do that.

And in that process, in integrating "stuff" from my past into my present - it works better to talk to others who can relate than to try to explain to others who have never remotely dreamed of the culture we lived in and let shape us.

I hope to connect in "real life" (I mean in person, on the phone, and personal emails) with people who are interested in doing the same - i.e. those who have "been there" and now are living life outside the bubble. I am particularly busy these days and so I have been limited in my activity in my attempts to make this happen - but I think as time opens up it will be an addition to my life now. Not because I want to dwell on the past, but exactly because I want to enjoy a full-blown present.

So - in some ways, I think a lack of closure is what you make of it. Thinking about TBS/GGWO takes up a lot less space in my psyche these days than it did in 2005, when I left, and by coming here I'm not trying to make it flare up. But I think most of us start out not too clear on what's happened to us and what to do, and we bring that jumble with us into our lives and to sites such as these. And as Sibiricus and John pointed out, people come looking for different things.

I also wish that more of "those who may have done the best achieving closure" were available to interact with... but it is what it is, and I think if I seek, I'll find.

You are asking yourself questions that will lead to useful answers. Thanks again for talking about this stuff!
[B][/B][B][B]

Great post, Sibiricus. Some very good thoughts here.

I was recently thinking about this issue of silence from the leaders of gg, iagm, etc. They regularly cross land and sea to recruit a single follower, spending small fortunes in the process. Yet for little more than their TIME to communicate in a forum such as this, they could be reaching out to many many people. To my knowledge, there has never been a single leader of bs, gg, iagm, etc. who was willing to speak officially, on the record, in an attempt to see ex members healed and reconciled.

Not once.

Not in this century, not in the 90s, not in the 80s, not in the 70s.

Not in Baltimore, Lenox, Tacoma, foreign countries, no where.

As you said, they do not want to meet with their victims. But they'll gladly preach at us all day long. I cringe every time some sycophant comes here, carelessly throwing around Bible verses. They obviously don't get it. Here are hundreds and hundreds of testimonies of people used and abused, hurt, robbed, lied to, cheated, etc. ("Betsy, for just a few millions dollars, you can get Ben out of prison!") And every incident was based on a twisting of the Scriptures and some pompous man "speaking for God..."

I don't need / want another sermon. For every Bible verse they throw, I could throw back two which teach the exact opposite. As can so many of you.

But where is their kindness? Love? Compassion? Where is simply being nice for cryin' out loud?! Where is friendship that has no agenda, no hidden objective of getting another person to their church? When you think of a kind, compassionate, loving shepherd who makes you want to follow Jesus, does the face of your former gg pastor come to mind?

Hardly. This is a group of religious teachers who OVERTLY teach that "friendship evangelism" is failing God! You don't try and "win people" through kindness and compassion. Rather, you preach at 'em. Throw another verse at 'em and another one and another one. Either you scare the hell out of them and "get 'em saved," or you can proudly walk away and condemn to eternal perdition all those who reject you, knowing that you did your part.

"It does not matter to them which one of the options take place." sigh.... How sad is that? If you "pray the prayer," or in our case, "repent" and come crawling back, they will proudly carve another notch in their Bible. If not, they won't grieve the loss of you in their lives. They'll tsk, tsk, boast that they told us (their version of) the truth, and now they can wash their hands of us.

Hi Annie. Glad you've joined us!

As Chrysalis just posted "in integrating "stuff" from my past into my present - it works better to talk to others who can relate than to try to explain to others who have never remotely dreamed of the culture we lived in and let shape us."

Since I left gg a few years ago, I've been working at making friends. (And it takes effort. Children and even young adults have school as a great way to meet new people and form friendships. For many younger people, work is a good connector as well. Get a little older, and people often have families and responsibilities precluding them from investing the time in a new relationship outside the work place...)

I've only outed myself as a recovering fundamentalist to a very few of my new friends. While I am convinced that there is not something wrong with us that led to our experiences, it's waaaayyyyy too complex to explain to a "civilian." (Embarrassing, too). So I seldom try.

In the midst of a conversation, things sometimes come up which cause me to pause and really consider how to answer. Don't want to say something akin to "none of your business," but don't want to get into it. I don't do this all the time, but enough that last week, during one of those "reflective pauses," someone commented about noticing that I do that from time to time...

One thing that helps me "get away" with not revealing my whole life story is the simple fact that the older someone is, the more of life's experiences they've had. Most middle aged or older people have dealt with their own issues along the way. Marriages that went horribly bad, suicides of people close to them, a child who became a criminal, bouts with addictions, health crisis, financial woes, something. Things they're not comfortable talking about, either.

When I've glossed over things with a statement about "baggage I'd rather not get into," not one of my new friends has been offended, felt left out, or anything. To the contrary, they've accepted and respected that. (They're probably GLAD I'm not going on forever about something which, while major to ME might bore THEM to death! B) )

There WAS one very fun and funny evening, when two ex-ers went out with me and a couple of my new friends from work. We all acted like normal people, and had a great evening. But if my co-workers got up and left the room, the conversation between the three of us totally changed! (You know who you are -- we should do that again!)

That is a good point, John. Thank you. In the future I will try to do as Archie Bunker advised his wife Edith, and stifle myself.

Now that I've been out for a bit, there is one thing that I do when the subject of my past church comes up. I tell the name and I tell them to never, ever go there or get involved with those people and if they want to know more, we'll talk sometime. Usually the response is actually good. They thank me for the heads up. I've told relative strangers about avoiding the plaza. It's liberating for me seeing as I live in Baltimore and run into gg folks frequently.

But that was an aside. Generally, I don't go into my past church experience especially when trying to connect with Christians for the very reason of wondering if they will think that something was wrong with me. People have a hard time grasping the thought of abusive church. Although I must say that there are many Pastors in the Baltimore area that are aware of the fallout from GG and are very compassionate about our struggle to adapt to normal-ness. And, what I find ironic is that these pastor's had never or rarely heard of GG before. Pretty telling isn't it?

Great posts everyone. Great thread too. Thanks Dude for starting this thread. Its only been a day and we already have a lot of great discussion already.

While I don't have a great deal of pain over what happened at GGWO, I'm not going to deny that there isn't any. There was some and I'm going to have to continue to seek God for more healing of it. Its not pleasant knowing you got suckered into thinking a church was a healthy fundamentalist evangelical church when it was not. Especially after having already being thoroughly brainwashed and controlled in a really cultic Christian looking home cell group years earlier. I actually thank God for what He taught me about what led me into that other cult and used that knowledge to keep me from getting sucked more into GGWO than I actually did. While in the other cult, I had to learn the hard way to stop being so overly trusting and to start being a lot more discerning. There's a lot of con artists and charlatans out there. I sure ran into a lot of them standing behind pulpits at GGWO!!! It also was not fun being kicked out of the GGWO youth "ministry" for failure to blindly believe in Carl and the pastors and all their man made doctrines or live my own personal life according to those doctrines. What was even worse was how my own pastor, youth leader, and others deliberately spread lies about me being a spiritual danger to the community and a pervert as typical GGWO marking treatment in an attempt to turn as many people as possible against me. Fortunately many people knew better and refused to believe all the lies.

That stuff did get me mad but what got me much more mad at GGWO was how others around me were being spiritually abused, mislead, manipulated, and alienated. I really hated the way people were being taken advantage of, manipulated and brainwashed at GGWO including the teens at the GGWO youth group that I was a youth worker at. That's what got me the maddest by far about GGWO. Youth were being brainwashed, manipulated, taught to blindly submit and depend on the pulpit, as well as being alienated, condemned, rudely stared at, gossiped about, slandered and emotionally damaged if they didn't completely kiss up to the pastors, youth leaders and their closest groupies. I saw a lot of carnage from this kind of thing. One other thing that really stood out was how the whole GGWO youth "ministry" was brainwashing kids to blindly submit to authority no matter what, never question anything, and worship the person at the pulpit whether thats a youth leader, John Love himself, a pastor, or Carl Stevens, or even Tom Schaller. It was all about manipulating and reprogramming youth to become pastor worshipping adults that depend on their pastors more than God.

At this point, I've long since moved on. I actually got a fair amount of closure when I was kicked out of GGWO. It felt like a hundred pound weight of burdens being lifted off my back more than anything else!! It felt liberating!!! But I knew I still had a job to do. That is tell others about GGWO to avoid the place so they didn't have to suffer like so many people already did there. So I immediately started telling many of the kids in my old youth group what really happened and a fair amount of them left GGWO for good!!! I also told friends to avoid the place. Then I found Factnet and read the many, many accounts of abuse that others suffered. That really hit me hard. The suffering of people was much more widespread than I ever knew before. That's when I had to take more action and started posting my accounts and comments on Factnet. Then came DiscussGGWO so I started posting here too. While I've been out for a long time and have got a lot of closure, I still do get mad at times over the suffering of people at GGWO and groups like it. Then I might just start posting some more or start praying some more for God to deliver people from these groups. That's the least I can do for others involved in all this spiritual carnage. For much of the rest of the time, I like to think about other more healthy subjects and engage in more positive activities. As for any more closure I need, I'm going to keep looking to God for that. God already gave me a much better life with a wonderful sweet wife since GGWO. I'd rather focus more on that but I will still post sometimes to help keep others out of the trap of GGWO and encourage or help those still inside GGWO to get up and leave. May God be with them.

It is something that very few "normal" Christians can understand. We had rare thoughts of GGWO after leaving in 1995 except when others came to us as they were ready to leave. Usually it was painful and not very pretty. The FACTNet era changed that because defections increased exponentially, information flowed at the speed of light and our involvement increased. Since the New World Order has been established in the Mother Ship things have quieted down a little.

It's been a wild ride, but I guess the title of this thread makes it a fitting place to say good-bye. I think there's not much more I can add to this conversation. I am always open to personal communication from anyone out there and gladly welcome connection with other survivors. Many thanks and best wishes to those who've shared the journey this far.

Dave Carson
minutus@gmail.com

TOUCHING ONCE (IS SO HARD TO KEEP)
By Jon Camp & Michael Dunford

Leaving all their thoughts behind
Passing over timeless wastes of ecstasy
Freedom strangled at the source
Takes the only charted course
That leads them home
Their bodies move towards the dawn
The light in which a nation born
Can only hope, and only weep
Their passion may be growing weak

How was alone, recall me if you can
I feel I am lost within you
Many times within the sound of emptiness
A light has shown deep in each others soul
Keeps them apart, a love now makes them whole
Fractured memories tearing at all their dreams
Made life and living a faded scene

To give a name locked in despair
Makes chances of a lifetime course across your eyes
To give and get, and yet return
Emotion smoulders, starts to burn in harmony
They lay within a ruined shell
Searching for the time to tell
That he who followed endlessly
Does not exist, can never be

How was alone, recall me if you can
I feel I have lost within you
A part of what is held inside a deep regret
Taking over all that a hearts request
Answered by cries from a wilderness
Found forgotten lying in deeper sleep
Touching once is so hard to keep

In emptiness, a light has shown deep in each others soul
Keeps them apart, a love now makes them whole
Fractured memories tearing at all their dreams
Made life and living a faded scene
Taking over all that a hearts request
Answered by cries from a wilderness
Found forgotten lying in deeper sleep
Touching once is so hard to keep

I've been able to share my story with other Christians in a small group environment. It was tough to bring up, but like Epistula said, it gives you the opportunity to warn others about the abuses in GG. I've even been able to connect with others who may have been part of a church split/cult/spiritual abuse experience.
If you're in the Baltimore, MD area, I know there are some good churches that understand all of the "flocking" of ex-GGer's and why they are showing up in their churches. For many, it's been a place of rest, and recovery, and a healthy experience.
I know it won't be the same for everyone because we're all in a different place, but my suggestion if you're looking for a healthy church is to keep looking until you find one you're comfortable with.

If you've been in GGWO for a long time, most of your adult life, then it's a process. I find it goes in cycles. I get bored with the Board and get on with my life. But there are certain things that only you guys will understand. And that's the way it's always going to be.

If and when Carl kicks the bucket, it will be a new phase. We don't know exactly how we are going to feel until it happens. There may be some issues that come to the surface. It will be interesting to see the impact it will have on those of GGWO and those Carl supporters who might have left GGWO.

The Holy Spirit knows how much we can take and when we can take it. He shows me some tough stuff, and then I take a break. Then later, He shows me more so I can get free and know Him more--as He really is--and not tainted by some of the bad doctrines.

A lot of you gave me Christ throughout the years. I got to know Christ through your lives. GGWO wasn't a waste just for that very reason.

Since reading this wonderful thread a long forgotten moment surfaced in my thoughts and I am not sure I can even explain it in words...I remembered sitting in a service and something had just been said about carl being sick or something. For a moment I pictured a world without him in it...even though I was drinking the kool aid at the time. And I remember this sudden pain in my chest...and breaking into tears...and feeling this fear and desire at the same time. I think at that time, I was so confused about his role in my life and for a moment I recognized on some level that I was in bondage, and also somehow knew his disappearance would set me free from this conflict I was experiencing...

That conflict was rooted in what I have come to believe was an uncertainty of being...in philosophical terms it is called "ontological" uncertainty. I think this kind of insecurity about who we are and where we belong is what might predispose many individuals who are searching for a place to belong to join movements like ggwo. Here was a group of people who seemed so certain of everything, so certain of their calling....I was young, vulnerable, and I had a mind that was capable of abstraction to the point where I was afraid of the directions my thoughts could go in. Carl was like a father figure, who could fill in my doubts with his certainty...the campus in Lenox provided me with a haven from the world I did not seem to fit into...because I wasn't sure of my own identity. So I borrowed one.

I was like a blank paper and I let chs fill in the spaces.

It seems unfortunate, looking back, that at that moment of pain, I did not have the personal power or strength to just walk away. I believe this was because I had long since stopped giving my self permission to think critically about the pastor. He was either "of God" or "not of God;" there was just no room for a dialogue that might lead to the conclusion that he wasn't "of God" and so I was stuck...in my own lack of self and his overwhelming persona full of absolute "conviction" about the "truth."

Those things I am just beginning to understand with every step forward in freedom. I am keeping track of things separately in other places...journaling, through school writing etc...I guess the question of closure for me has more to do with growing in understanding about the reasons why ggwo represented the answer to life to me....personally, and I have to be careful how I say this, but personally, learning those answers means I must be willing to see all the good things that were there...there were good people, good moments...

It has taken me over six years to reach a place where I could look back and see good...not have to paint the canvas all grey and gloomy...more later...when it becomes clearer to me. I know it was different for everyone, what drew us in, but for me personally, being open to understanding that there were real and legitimate reasons why the ministry seemed to hold the answer, reasons that were rooted in my own makeup, is more realistic than thinking of the ministry as totally evil...we are not idiots...we are human beings and something real was represented by the ministry. But as I said, I needed to heal significantly before I could begin to address the matter of my role in the matter.


Somehow it is empowering me....like a reconciliation of sorts with my past.

Does this make any sense to anyone besides me? Language can be so inadequate at times.

I discovered though my study of closure that surprisingly enough, all of us that came out of TBS/GGWO, came out of a system that functions with a high need for constant closure. TBS/GGWO’s authoritarianism, dogmatism and in-group culture thrives on the tenets of closure [need for order, discomfort with ambiguity, a knowledge base that is predictable and unchallenged (close-mindedness), and a need to bring closure in decision making and judgments (decisiveness)].

GGWO’s definition of closure is: “Get over it.” It is a simple formula. Apply this scripture and don’t grieve or question “why’. Empathy is on the low scale of high closure groups. Remember all the times Stevens chastised widows/widowers for grieving their lost loved ones? Remember the number of abusive marriages that existed? The beat up wife was always told to go back and give grace and the husband was never held accountable.

TBS/GGWO also views the life and growth of a believer through a strange lens. They want decisiveness. Closure calls this “seizing” the moment. I think obedience is important, but when you look at the lives of people in the OT and NT, there are often years that take place between the “faith or growth events” of these people(s). TBS/GGWO teaches it in a very condensed fashion so you don’t visualize the process they went through. It is then that you see the grace and mercy of God working in their lives.

My point is it’s difficult for a person to come out of a high closure group. That person is conditioned to seize upon closure which could be a mistake. They might make a mistake in their decision making. One should take the time to question, explore the Scriptures anew, rediscover one’s relationship with Christ, find a new church experience, but overall to continue to seek God and trust Him.

The above post by Bmore is very good, because it is very true. I wonder did the constant need of closure also made us control freaks? It seems to me that the GGers used to need a controlled environment where-ever they (and we, too) went. No kids were allowed in the services, the "soul-winning" was always done in pairs, discussions within the body were very seldom dialogs, music - even in public places - was always considered as an interference unless it was "approved by the ministry" etc. so that there would be nothing to interfere with the processless heading towards a pre-determined goal.

I think any kind of processing was considered evil in the GGWO unless it was the pseudo-processing explained with the Channels A, B and C, which was actually nothing but memorizing over-complicated definitions that CHS made ad hoc to maintain/enlarge his little kingdom.

Since GGWO is so much about controlling people and using them, the leaders there surely don't want people leaving. So they brainwash them to completely depend upon their GGWO pastor teacher for all truth and thinking as a form of addiction. Get the people so convinced that any independant thought or questioning teachings or actions of leaders against Scripture is an act of defiance and distrust against the supposedly God given delegated authority of the pastor that the people wouldn't dare do any of that. Get the people to blindly depend on, worship, and follow the pastor. Get the people to the point that they not only can't think for themselves but would not know what to do in life without constant direction and indoctrination from their pastor. Keep the people so addicted to their pastors that they would have a really hard time ever leaving or even contemplating leaving.

Also since many GGWO pastors consider their actions against people as sanctioned by God, they really discredit peoples' pain and disillustionment by just condemningly demanding them to just "get over it". They don't care about the people or their need to truly process their pain and painful memories. They would rather the people consider abuses commited against them to be tests from God, get over it, and just put it all behind them like nothing really happened and go on serving GGWO and its pastors. How totally unrealistic!!!!! God is not like this at all, and loves to heal His own and help them truly process everthing so they can become truly healthy again!!! GGWO leaves no room for this as the leaders there insist the people keep blindly serving their pastors and pretend their wounds don't even exist. This is yet another way that GGWO is not about ministering to people, its about blindly serving the leaders!!!

Wed 9/19 message Tom Powell Living Grace Church Tacoma, WA:
Tom Powell 9/19 message
Between 10.34-10.45:

Like Tom Powell really has a monopoly on truth and that listening to anyone who disagrees with him is demonic and detrimental to one's Christian walk. Tom Powell is just plain full of it just like Carl Stevens and Tom Schaller!!! Listening to men like these long enough is a sure way to get misled and shipwrecked!!!

Here's a song I "dedicate' to the control freaks.

http://free.napster.com/player/?play_id=19709055&type=track

Dave -- who knew? CSN&Y, and now this? I'm impressed!

Try track 8 of this album.

Here are the lyrics...It's not enough...by The Who.


It's not enough
Whatever you give

A little bit more
You always need
A little more man
A little more seed

It's not enough
It's not enough
Whatever I give
It's never enough

I gave you cash
I gave you love
All that I heard
Was "It's Not Enough"

I work so hard
It gets so tough
Whatever I give
Never feels like enough
It's not enough
It's not enough
Whatever I give
It's never enough

When I'm on my knees
I keep taking your stuff
Make sure that you know
It's never enough

You said you'd go as far
As to turn to my friend
Who once warned me of you
Said you'd hasten my end
He'll choose you over me
Because I have lent
Every ounce of my juice
My essence is spent

You'll always want
A little more pink
I'll always need
A little more ink

It's not enough
It's not enough
Whatever I give
It's never enough

However I praise
However I puff
Though you may smile
It won't be enough

Right at the end
When I start to bluff
An' the lift's going down
An' I start acting tough

It's not enough
It's not enough
Whatever I give
It's never enough

I'll find someone else
To finish filling me up
I'll smile and admit
You were never quite enough

Like Brigitte Bardot
In Godard's Les Mepris
I can't love you enough
To make you complete
You appear in my dreams
With some new courtier
You need me there to see
What you need to convey

It's not enough
It's not enough
Whatever I give
It'll never be enough

No hysterical scene
You will never play rough
I'm the one who will scream
But it won't be enough

It's never enough
It's never enough

It's not enough
It's not enough
Whatever I give
It'll never be enough

I'll never hold you
How can I scold you?

It's not enough
It's not enough
Whatever I give
It'll never be enough

John,
I'm full of surprises.
;)

Interesting comments by all...I guess there's no forgetting the past, you just have to live with it. But keeping it on the surface might not always be a good idea. I took a 2 week break from Discuss and feel better for it...

I open the newspaper and turn on the TV and it seems bad things happen to people every day. Maybe it was just our turn.

I think the positive that came out of it is by doing it wrong some of us have learned how to do it right. Ultimately our responsibility is to look for God and try to live right, accepting forgiveness as we go. It really seems to be a growing process, and if nothing else we've been humbled to the point where we should realize we don't know it all. Making that assumption now would only make us guilty of the sins of the group we exited.

"I urge you brothers and sisters, to keep an eye on those who cause dissensions and offenses, in opposition to the teaching that you have learned. Avoid them. For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the simple minded...The God of peace will shortly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you."

"God is love. He who does not love does not know God."

"Well, all the time you spend trying to get back what's took from you, more is going out the door. After a while you just have to try to get a turniquet on it."

Ellis/No Country for Old Men

That is a wonderful quote Dude...very apt...hey hope it's as wonderful a day in your neck of the woods as it is in mine...going to plant flowers on my Dad's grave and think of the father God really gave me as a gift...not focus on the imposters who took advantage of the weak moment in our relationship.

Dude you show up every now and then and I like the reflective process that your posts express; and that you are living in the now.

Thanks to both of you for your very thoughtful posts!! Life is too precious to spend too much of it thinking about GGWO. Best to keep moving on ahead, keep the turniquet on and let God make up to us for all the years the GGWO locusts have eaten. God gladly wil if we ask Him to. He loves us that much!!!!

Update

Carl is starting to slip away. He stopped taking nutrition and is sleeping more.

hmmmm, is he being given fluids via i.v. ? So, most likely it's a matter of days. Has he been concious?

thank you for updates, he has played a big role in all of our lives.

That's an indication that he will be gone soon.
I have seen this process up close and personal.

God have mercy on him as with any.

Amen to that Dave!!

Closure: I wish I could hear my family members get to the point where you are.
They, after a lifetime, are still attached emotionally to CHS, his son, and the Body. Totally dependent on it, unable to rationalize, without signs of emotional growth, mentally unbalanced.... Mom's been in it since 1969...my sister and brother their whole life...that is all they have ever wanted to know.

Annie,

I certainly feel for you...

This morning, a dj in WA interviewed Elissa Wall, a former FLDS member. Born and raised in the church, forced to marry her cousin (I think) when she was only 14. She's out of the church, and recently published a book, Stolen Innocence; My Story of Growing Up in a Polygamous Sect, Becoming a Teenage Bride, and Breaking Free of Warren Jeffs.

I listened to the interview, and highly recommend it to all. Elissa is very bright, articulate, and shares much with many of us.

Link to the audio interview from this page.

I too heard from a reliable source that Carl is closing in on eternity. My God have mercy on Him and certainly on all!

As for the GGWO legacy, it now hard from me to grapple with how myself (and soooo many others) lived under such lunacy for so long.

I have to look inside my own soul (not something GGWO ever encouraged :)) for answers to that.

Annie,
You are very brave. My heart goes out to you but I am also so glad that you understand the deception your family is under. You can be a friend to them in a way they can never be to you.
Just want to offer encouragement to you. You are not alone.

When I heard the news I lit a cigar and headed up to the beach. I save all my serious prayers for the beach. It was kind of dark at sunset, with black clouds forming in columns backed by grey light, all framed in a dark horizon. A storm was on the way. I looked up to the heavens as I often do and I talked to God. And I wondered what it was like for old Junior Stevens now, facing the Almighty.

I watched the service last night on media player. For such a monumental event I really thought Tom Schaller dropped the ball. I was kind of disappointed. "Run the race with patience," peppered with statements like "there are voices, there is evil, there are demons, there is lack of faith...don't judge, go to the person alone." Couldn't he set aside the standard GG jargon for one night and honor his mentor? Then he tried to make a statement about mysticism only to realize he'd left his notes in the car. And finally a crescendo about missions movements after the death of the founder. What kind of a half-assed eulogy was that? Junior was right, Schaller always was disorganized and is boring if you have to listen to him every day...

"...Because if this plan or this undertaking is of human origin, it will fail..." I was surprised when Tom brought that up because I had been thinking about it all day. "If it's of God it will stand." Junior mentioned that quite a bit while I was there, so many years ago. And Schaller brought it up last night after I'd been thinking about it for hours.

Before I got to Lenox in 83 there had already been a burned down church, a couple splits, and annually a trickle of exits at home and in the branches. That trickle continued after I was gone. In the last 5 years there has been a split in Baltimore that included his son, and a national/international split when many branch churches called it quits and formed their own organization after reform efforts failed. Over the years his own kids quit. If some of the testimony here is true Junior eventually found himself an unwelcome nuissance in the ministry he himself had founded. How the heck did that happen?

Today, the church in Baltimore is half of what it was. And from what I saw last night it has no leader. It's not standing Tom, it's crumbling. Are you blind, or just a bad liar? Last night I witnessed a living epistle of what happens when God quits a church. And an ending to a script none of the "enemies" could ever have imagined. A script which only could have been written by that Great Writer Himself, The LOGOS.

What I saw last night was a bunch of lost people. God's People. People redeemed by Christ, but treated like they are the property of a man or a doctrine or an organization. It's a shame because I know so many of them truly love God with all their hearts. "When one blind man leads another both fall into a ditch."

There is always a chance for redemption. There's a real opportunity here. You could repent. You could say "We were wrong" and contact IAGM and all the ex-members. You could say "these are God's people and we need to get this thing back on track." Everyone who fills a seat could tell their spouse or parents or kids or realatives or friends "I'm sorry I drew a line in the sand and made pastor and the church an issue." The issue is we're supposed to love each other...

It could be done. I know there are people posting here who would be willing to help out. I'm one of them. You could repent. You could really lay down your lives and stop placing your ego ahead of God's people and God's work. The leaders could come clean and tell the truth about what happened, to both themselves and the congregation. You could tell us "we are so sorry." You could listen to us. You could re-organize. You could invite a few ex-members onto your board. There's still time. I think most of us would forgive you. Or you can choose more dwindling numbers, more boring messages, and more allegiance to a flawed creed from a flawed man who has passed into eternity.

This is the Internet Age and if there's one thing that has been done here it's that new converts to GGWO have been warned off. There is absolutely no way to measure it and no way for GGWO to fight it. There's no way to get a head count of people who didn't go there or didn't stay there as a result of the Internet. They just type in GreateGraceWorldOutreach on Google and click and it all pops up for all the world to see. Carlstevens.org did it's job. Despite some flaws, Factnet and Discuss have kept people from going there. "People stayed home in droves today" as the great Yogi Berra once said. There's no way to measure the influence of ex-members in keeping people out of GGWO. You thought you could just throw us away and it wouldn't affect what you were doing. You were wrong.

In the rememberances and reflections that took place last night and and on Grace Hour today a point emerges that has been overlooked by his followers. Junior never really let anyone know who he was. All the anecdotes are about messages or raps or stories Junior told about the bread truck or Hyles or the old church in Maine with the hole in the floor. There are few stories about anything fun anybody did with him. No dinner invitations. No cookouts. No fishing buddies. Just curtains pulled down on the windows in Lenox, and a house in Fallston rarely seen by the people who payed for it. Just a lecture at Dunkin' Donuts. He never let anyone see who he really was. He was too smart for that, because if they saw it they quit.

There will be talk about all the churches, all the missionaries, the Bible College, and all the people who made professions for God as a result of his preaching. There was all the doctrine, all the classes, all the outreaches. There was "corporate body truth" and the "local church." All the lives he touched. In the end, all those people are not welcome. They're not allowed to come and say goodbye. His final wishes are he doesn't want to see anyone from his great world outreach. In the end he was pretty much alone, betrayed by the machine he had created. What a miserable way to end a career.

It's fitting because he's not the one who did it. They're God's people Junior, not yours. I don't belong to you and you're not the reason I did anything while I was in your church. I did it for God. We all did it for God, not you, and we'll get our reward. Just like you got yours. It's fitting because you didn't do it for God, you did it for yourself. You needed to be somebody. In the end there was no praise or applause, just a lonely grave. You finally got what was coming to you. If only you had listened to us.

Thank God it's over.

Jim, wokbts@aol.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzcyK4IXN9A

It amazes me (May I say that?) how God's hand is in everything.
What you posted, Jim, has a lot of what I talked about with my sister and wife today earlier in it.
How there are so many that would come to the front to help if there was some openness and honesty about what has taken place coupled with a turn around in direction.
I wish it would happen but I think that what you've said about God quiting a church is true.
So many wasted opportunities to turn it back to God gone under the bridge.
So many chances at redeeming the loss that has taken place left to lie at the roadside like so much garbage.

So much water flowing underneath the bridge
Time we have wasted on the way.

http://free.napster.com/player/?play_id=14160090&type=track

Really appreciated your post Jim.

I told a friend today, that as I looked through the slide show on the memorial site (I was astonished at how quickly it was produced) it was like watching a dream that happened to a girl I no longer recognize. Yet even at this remove I understand that everything that did happen to that girl is a part of who I am now.

Since his death, I have been quiet...not wanting to chime in on impulse. The whole thing is rather tragic, my heart really breaks for the lost people as you mentioned...only I see it as people who have no inner compass, no sense of their true self...perhaps we were never allowed to see the "real carl" because he too, lacked that sense of true self...he seemed to live off of the emptiness of others.

The blind leading the blind. And the irony is, in that memorial service coming up, he will be heralded as a visionary; will anyone look around and say "why isn't anyone from his family here?" Will anyone wonder how it is that the final earmark of this man's ministry is one of division, strife and anguish in the lives of those who loved and needed him the most, his own children?

Why are they waiting for two weeks to have this service...is it because it places it closer to the convention? Are they going to make a revival out of this?
Yes of course they are going to mark the passing of the ministry's founder...but wouldn't it be something if they got up and spoke of the tragic ending and got real and let the chips fall...but that would mean giving up control over those lost people, that would mean trusting in their abilty to make their own faith decisions...guess that would be too risky...letting people think for themselves after giving them the facts.

Just some thoughts...it is too bad I agree, and so sad, that carl in his quest to be god's man, in his delusion that he was indispensible to the kingdom, never understood the simple joy of just being another sinner like the rest of us.

Maybe he would have found some comfort there.