What tipped it for you?

I mean, what made you realize that your old perceptions of gg as "the place to be" were, let's say, - limited? Which then lead to further consequences in your life, such as voting with your feet?

I'm interested in this whole subject of the limits of our interpretations, perceptions, etc.

If some of you have already written of this elsewhere and are not prepared to write again, links would be of interest to me and probably to others.

Otherwise, let the stories roll....

For me, it was the Easter 2005 gg service and aftermath - when CHS denounced the election of a replacement, and (some of) the elders subsequently acted like they had never taken up the task of organizing a vote. All right before my eyes because I was there to attend church services, not because anyone had managed to hatch cockatrice eggs in my ears

Interesting topic! I was considering creating a similar thread. For some it may have been the "Martin Report". Some it may have been the "lawsuit". Many may have found "FactNet" a few years ago. For me it happened when I found out why so many caring giving families were leaving the "local assembly": they were not actually leaving, they were being driven out.

Great topic!! I was originally led to GGWO based on false rumors that it was a strong evangelical, fundamentalist, grace oriented, healing oriented church. I attended a branch church and had visited GGWO Baltimore from time to time. Things seemed okay at first for about 18 months. I heard topics like salvation by grace plus nothing, eternal security, and a pretribulation rapture among others which seemed fine and dandy.

But red warning flags started to creep in. One of the first happened when Carl Stevens himself did a sermonette about guarding one's heart after a soulwinning blitz. The instant he started to preach in that preachy tone of voice of his, people fell into a very unnatural trance as they intensely focused upon him like he spoke for God himself. It was very creepy. People don't usually fall in trances during sermons like they did here. Another warning sign was at the Spring Rally camps I attended after joining the youth ministry as a youth worker. When John Love approached the podium to speak, kids were cheering more intensely and unnaturally for him than people did for Michael Jordan at a basketball game. This pastor worship and adoration of John Love was absolutely insane. He was obviously teaching them to worship pastors and youth leaders so they could become pastor worshipping adults for Carl Stevens later on.

Then more and more legalisms and false doctrines came out. There were Carl's tirades about rock music which quickly became outright bans on playing any form of rock music including Christian rock at any youth event or in the cars even on very long road trips. There was the no touch love nonsense. There was the pressuring of people to come to MBCS Bible College where it was presumed to be God's will for just about everyone. They wouldn't even be up front about the tuition rates but expected you to come anyway. Then there were false teachings about coverings designed to protect pastors and their little groupies from any accountability for their actions whatsoever. Then teachings came up about sure divine retribution against anyone who spoke negatively against a pastor or favored person of theirs. Blind obedience and loyalty to pastors and youth leaders were expected at all times and taught there. More and more false teachings began to surface as time went on.

The environment in my teen group and GGWO in general steadily became more alienating, controlling, abusive, and toxic as time went on. People were expected to blindly obey and support the pastors and youth leaders no matter what they did. Those that didn't were ignored, alienated, and had false rumors spread about them to turn others against them. People were lied about as being evil, or being perverts, or anything that the pastors thought would be successful in turning others against them. Friends were pitted against friends as informants to keep control of the people and enforce Carl Stevens's many rules and legalistic beliefs on the people. The kids concerns and feelings meant nothing at GGWO. They just wanted kids and adults there that would blindly support the pastors, youth leaders, their whole system, and false teachings. People were being used to serve "the ministry", kids included. "Love" at GGWO was completely conditional upon blind servitude to the leadership. As the years went on, GGWO as a whole became more controlling and intolerant to any form of dissent or indepandant thinking.

I could have left when some of the first red flags went up, but out of concern for teens and their parents that I had already befriended, I chose to stay to support them and protect them. I could not just abandon them to the wolves of GGWO. I stayed on for a few more years quietly exposing false teachings of the pastor and others along with some other iniquities of their to kids and some parents alike. Eventually the pastor and youth leader figured out I was an insurgent after brainwashing one of my other long time adult friends to rat me out. In the end, I was ousted and marked with slanderous lies for it all. The pastor and youth leader then spread false rumors about me being an evil danger to the community and a pervert to turn kids and parents against me in typical GGWO marking style. Fortunately, a lot of people were wise to the church's deception and refused to believe them. A number of kids left when I was tossed and I just kept on minstering to them on my own with the help from some parents. Now the kids are twenty somethings and glad to be out of GGWO just like me. Its nice to be back out in the real world where Christ can be experienced so much more freely and to be away from all that control, exploitation, alienation, and abuse at Greater Grace.

It was a Wednesday evening service sometime in early 2004. Carl had been missing a lot of services due to “his back,” and this night was no exception. Dan Lewis got up after the offering and announced that we were all about to be blessed by a special treat! By golly, Carl himself was calling in live to address the ‘body’!

So low and behold Carl’s drugged up voice comes through the speakers in the auditorium. Completely incoherent and loopy! His raspy voice just kept muttering, “My time, my time, my time.” I’m not sure how many times he repeated that, but Barbara came on the line and said hello to everyone and that everything was just grand and that we would see Carl very soon. Then she gave the phone back to Carl and you could hear her in the background prodding him to say goodbye, but he was so far gone he couldn’t even do that. I was sitting in the audience stunned and so was everyone else. You could hear a pin drop everyone was so silent. Dan Lewis walked away from the podium (I can’t remember if he said anything else). Later on he shared preaching time with someone else. In his message he referenced how great it was to hear our pastor doing so well. That comment received applause and that’s when it clicked and I noticed the emperor had no clothes. I still continued to attend services, but the last service I attended was Easter 04.

Oh and I guess it got around that people were saying Carl was incoherent in that Wednesday evening phone call. The next time he was at service he took on his mocking preachy tone and stated that “I’ve never been incoherent in my life!”

Thus began my exodus from the BS/GGWO...

With me it took God moving me out physically by making it impossible to stay where I lived.
Then after a few years I stumbled upon Factnet.
At first I thought I was reading the bitterness and resentment of those who had a grudge.
I addresses this and found myself being called a troll.(I still think that's funny.)

After that initial introduction to former members I began to investigate and found Carl Stevens.org and began reading the reports of people that I knew and respected.
Then I stumbled on an article about "Touch not mine anointed" and things really lit up for me.
I went back and read with the sense of truth what people had been claiming had taken place and it hit me like a lightening bolt from on high that this was the truth.
I examined in depth what I had been taught and found it to be filled with error.

Then there was Sandy Cove and the Schaller debacle.

Even though I was already convinced of the truth I could now quite readily see the "elitism" and error that was so prevalent in the doctrines.
"You won't hear this anywhere else."
No wonder,
it's not the truth.

I was not pleased with the lies I had been told and even less pleased that the body of Christ , which "I love deeply" was being deceived in such a heinous fashion.
I contacted a pastor that I had believed the lies about and apologised because I had repeated those same lies.
He was most gracious to say the least and assured me that he didn't even think I had done him wrong.
That is when I realised I had to speak out and speak out hard against these deceivers,liars and wolves in sheep's clothing.

After I began speaking out I was contacted by a sycophant pastor and he told me some BS story about how Carl had said such and such in praise of me and so on and so forth I didn't buy it for one moment.

When I emailed him back indicating that "we need to talk" he got the hint or maybe he was frightened and never responded again to this very day.
There is more but I think that gets the point across.

Perfidious (interesting name you picked, BTW :D ) , I remember that service you spoke about. There were many things like that which were part of the "build-up" for me. All the standing ovations were particularly creepy to me. (Loyalists, BTW: I love honor that does not detract from worshiping God.) In the end I realized that there was no danger left of losing out on something from God in that environment, because the issues had become so prominent that it was impossible for me to worship Christ there. That is really what tipped it for me.

Of course there were other dangers and costs, such as loosing friends and leaping into the need to re-orient to life in a big way. But as Side mentions there are big upsides to moving on, too.

Brett, the thing you mention of good people that you knew personally leaving - that had an impact on me too. Years ago when I heard preaching about "railers," "conspirators," etc. it was abstract to me, and concerned people I had never met who, as far as I knew, were long gone. And so "hey, that's not the whole story" did not occur to me.

But when people I knew who were so godly - loving, faithful, warm, service-oriented, showing the fruit of the Spirit, with no red flags in their own lives - started disappearing, I knew that ideas about "enemies," etc. (that vocabulary is not fresh in my mind and I'm actually thrilled about that B) ) could not apply to such people. So that was part of the build-up for me, too.

Brett, how were people driven out?

Side - Wow!

Did you already somehow have benchmarks of healthy fellowship practices you'd been part of or exposed to before you came to gg? I ask because it sound like the red flags were clearly seen as such and unacceptable to you from the get-go, and that you were able to maintain a personal relationship with God uninhibited by error.

I wish I had time to comment more now. It is fascinating to me that Side could spot the dangers of trances on the spot, while many of us merely saw the plus of being deeply touched by what happened, without seeing the danger side, or the balance.

You’re right, Chrysalis, it was definitely a build up. I was a second generation Beaker/GGer so it was the only version of Christianity I ever knew. Probably 6 months prior to the “My time” service is when I could pinpoint the beginning of my disillusionment with that place. The “My time” message is the straw that broke the camels’ back for me.

Sidethorn- you are right on with your version of the youth ministry. I was a part of that for many years as a young person.

Thanks Perfidious!! It sure is great being out of that so called GGWO youth "ministry", isn't it? No more elitism. No more of John Love's clique systems to control people and reward those who kiss up to the leaders with "love" and attention while others get rejected, alienated, often marked with slander and scarred. I've seen too many times the emotional damage a place like that can leave on young people.

After I was "exiled" from GGWO a few years, I stumbled upon Factnet and some other sites and started reading more about GGWO and other's accounts of the place. The stuff that was going on in my own experience and that of others I knew personally was so much more widespread than I realized, I almost fell out of my chair when researching things. Hundreds of adults and youth alike were hurt spiritually, emotionally and worse at GGWO. Then I knew, I had to take action. That's when I started posting on Factnet three years ago to warn others to avoid GGWO and to get out if they were already in. That included pleading with parents that might be on the Internet to keep their kids far away from any GGWO youth functions. I also had to discuss all this with the kids I still knew from my own GG days too telling them how widespread their types of experiences were and how cultic GGWO really was. We already knew of more severe problems by the time we all left since two people we knew personally were severely brainwashed by GGWO. Their personalities, interests, and outlooks radically changed and not for the better. Too much of that "categorical doctrine" and coercing people into blind faith and obedience in the pastor teachers and youth leaders. Fortunately one of them was successfully deprogrammed and is now back to his old self. The status of the other is unknown. May God be with him.

More warning signs I saw when still "in" was the extreme arrogance the leaders had about themselves, their teaching, and GGWO itself. Many times they boasted about all that "teaching you won't hear anywhere else". They boasted too about themselves as being about the only one's properly teaching subjects like eternal security. I knew that was wrong since I had already heard great messages about eternal security for the believer in other churches long before ever coming to GGWO. There was absolutely nothing superior, unique, or special about GGWO's teaching about eternal security whatsoever just like any other subject.

I also started to noticed how so many of the GGWO faithful separated themselves from other Christians and non-Christians alike. That seemed very strange and very arrogant of them. They acted like they were so superior that other Christians weren't good enough for them so they avoided them. As time went on, it became very clear that the dividing line for fellowship was the blind loyalty, blind belief, and blind obedience to the GGWO leadership. Those who failed to comply 100 percent were to be avoided altogether. Those that complied got the "fellowship". Amazing how a church that names the Name of Christ Who preached unconditional agape love, practiced just the opposite, that is very conditional love based upon blind servitude and faith in that GGWO leadership. GGWO's "love" was so shallow and fake, it was revolting. Makes me even gladder to be out for good!!!

Chrysalis:

Sorry I didn't respond earlier to your post which is a very good one. Somehow I missed this one only to just find it now. Years ago, I had been wrapped up in Christian fundamentalism for a long time. I had been part of a number of different churches, listened to Christian radio and TV quite a bit. After a while, more and more things just didn't add up. Too many preachers on the same radio or TV station contradicted each other on a lot of subjects. That started to raise some red flags that all is not as rosy as it seems. Maybe not everyone can be trusted to preach the truth. However at that time, I was still too trusting and not discerning enough. That led me into big trouble. A small fellowship group I joined while involved in a church later broke off from that church and became a full blown cult itself!!! The church was very uncaring and unloving to me and I mistakenly went with the splinter group that turned cultic. The leader twisted Scripture, had a very strong, overbearing, manipulative personality and was very hard to refute at least with what I knew about Scripture at that time. This guy got into my head so much, it took the help of an old girlfriend and some others months and months to free me from this guy. Thank God I got free in the end!! Then came a long recovery and relearning process. In a sense, I needed some deprogramming which Christ graciously gave me. In the end, I realized that I had better not be too trusting of preachers or anyone that comes along claiming to be enlightened by God with superior teaching. Unfortunately I ended up learning all that the hard way.

Then years later came GGWO after I had to build up my own relationship with Christ and learned a lot more from Him. Despite being much more discerning than before, the GGWO affiliate church I joined was still able to decieve me into thinking that I was at a normal evangelical church. All the teachings seemed mainstream and Biblically sound for quite a while. Somehow when I went to Baltimore, it was always during Carl's "better" days when he didn't stray from the truth as far as he usually did. It just took quite a while until I started hearing the abberant teachings. Once I finally did, I was deeply involved in the GGWO youth ministry and had befriended a number of the kids there and their families. Then that left me a choice, leave GGWO and abandon those kids to GGWO or stay and protect them and support them. I had to choose the latter. For several years afterward, I supported the kids and secretly exposed the false teachings of GGWO to them and others while trying to give them protection in other ways. I was literally an enemy combatent sabotaging the GGWO cult from within!!! As I mentioned in a previous post, that eventually came to an end when one of my longtime friends was brainwashed by the pastor, youth leader, and others in GGWO to betray me to them by ratting on me. That eventually led to my permanent ousting and marking as a spiritually dangerous evil pervert. Nothing could be further from the truth, but this action on GGWO's part is very typical when people don't buy into their false teaching and stand up to them. Very often GGWO pastors and others will slander people with lies to try to get others to turn against them. Fortunately many people didn't buy GGWO's lies here. Now, many of the kids and their families are out and glad to be out. No more GGWO/IAGM or any of it. So much better that way!!!

Great posts by everyone. I wonder how many that posted on this topic know each other.

Perfidious, much like you, GG was the only church I ever knew. My parents met in Stevens School in Lenox, and I am a product of their marriage. My parents are now divorced, but they are both out of GG along with the rest of my family.

My formative years were spent growing up in a branch ministry. I still have friends and people that I keep in contact with from that church to this day. I went through GGCA, involved with the youth ministry from the start of my teenage years, and needless to say, took everything hook line and sinker. I guess you could say that I'm a rather rare one because although there were twisted, wrong things that were taught, I did form my relationship with Christ and gained some of the greatest friends growing up at GG. The post is not to detract from the harm, dangers, and manipulation of GG, but rather to say that not everything I "personally" gained was horribble.

Flash forward to 2003, (I think) this was when Stevens had a "heart attack" or "stroke" depending on who you asked. A friend of mine told me something that made me really consider everything in light of the current events. They told me, "What if Stevens (pastor) didn't have a stroke?". I later found that this was the result of his overdosing on prescription pain killers. Then a buddy of mine showed me an article in the Baltimore Sun. (I think you can find it on Carlstevens.org) It was also around this time that the infamous "postcards" were mailed out. The postcard and the Sun both listed the website of Factnet. There was a quote from a missionary that I knew in the article, which also peaked my interest. I never received the postcard, but my roommate did in his Bible College mailbox. He showed it to me and gave it to me. My curiosity was sparked. I went onto factnet, at the time defending the likes of GG and the youth ministry. It was hear that I learned of the Lang debacle, which was confirmed without denial from Paul. This started to raise red flags, and I started questioning things.
It was around this time also that Sandy Cove happened. Affiliate pastors that I had known and trusted were listed on the document. I knew that something was not right. I read all of the Sandy Cove documents, saw the document of intent signed by 40?? different pastors.

Another friend of mine who was close to someone on staff told me about the elders being forced to put someone in the position of head pastor while CHS was out. I was there that Wed night when the place cards were put on everyone's chair confirming or disagreeing with the decision for Elder. I still remember Noreen Kennedy getting up and shouting, "what about P. Schaller? You're blackballing P. Schaller". Though many people were surprised to find the cards, I knew all about it and even tried to reason with others to confirm the Elders' decision. It is my belief that the Elders really did try to do right by putting in a man that probably could have made great changes for GG. I personally met with Love to pick his brain about where he stood. His character certainly is a mask that he wears over who he really is. I asked him if he would stay if Steve became the pastor, and his reply was that he couldn't make that promise. I knew then his loyalty was not to the truth, but to saving the "ministry" and being part of Schaller's entourage. It is no surprise that he is now an Elder, but most of the youth staff has left since then.
I even stayed for the open "forum", which was the hand-picked debate between Steve Stevens and Schaller. My choice was now for Steve, but I knew it wasn't going to happen.
The following Sunday night was my last night attending. I arrived late because I knew they were going to announce the results of the vote for Steve, Schaller, or other. Schaller received the larger vote. The place erupted like a Red Sox fan in the 2004 World Series. I remember walking out and looking through one of the side doors seeing Schaller hoisted on the shoulders of several young foreign students. My heart was grieved. I knew things would never be the same.
The church I had come to know and love was a different place, a place that I couldn't trust. I knew I couldn't tell others. They wouldn't understand, they would think I was evil and spreading gossip. So, I left alone. I still think there are people there who don't know that I have left since then.
I knew this would be one of the hardest decisions of my entire life, but a necessary one. Almost 3 years later now I could not be happier with where my life is at. The feelings of loneliness, anger, bitterness, frustration, confusion were no easy task, but I knew that I wanted to have an "actual" relationship with a loving God, not with a pulpit or a man.
Reading a couple of different books helped me realize all was not right also. I've mentioned them before, but if you're interested, here they are:
Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller
In the Grip of Grace by Max Lucado
And the Angels Stood Silent by Max Lucado (especially the chapter about Hucksters and Hypocrites)
A Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning

I've heard there are others that are recommended, but those are the ones that personally helped me.

Great topic. I hope the posts keep coming!

I was a regular poster and reader on factnet defending GG and CHS. I truly believed all the accusations were lies designed to destroy God's work. This was just before the first Sandy Cove (SC1)conference. I saw some of the problems in the church then as normal for a time when the leadership was in disarray due to the failing health of the founding leader. When SC1 was announced, I believed that the leaders would get together and work it all out and set GG back on the right course with not just a new pastor in Baltimore, but a new form of church government that would have accountability and not necessarily be under any one man. I reviewed the results of the first SC1 and thought it was a pretty good start.

Because of some discussion on factnet, I tried and was able to get a copy of the GG bylaws. They came in handy after SC1 in the height of the leadership crisis in Baltimore. I remember asking Scott Robinson why he, as vice chairman of the board of elders, was not acting as pastor. He did a fine dance around the question. It was soon after that they announced the selection of Roger on March 23rd, 2005. During that announcement, Michael Marr stated to the church that voting would be open until April 3rd. Since I trusted GG and assumed they were truly doing things decently and in order, I was shocked at the way this was handled. I did not think Roger was a bad choice, but some details were left out. There was no advance announcement that Rodger was selected by the elders and that the church would be asked to affirm the decision. and second there was no prior announcement that CHS was removed as pastor. The first official announcement that CHS was removed was not until the Time line was released. These details really started me to question things. One teaching that GG payed a lot of lip service to was doing all things decently and in order. This was obviously not being done. Then to top it all off, John Love went out the next day and sowed discord among the department heads. Then when Roger was forced out, I was done with the place. I had the by laws. I knew there was a proper order to do this and I knew the leaders were not doing it. My trust was gone.

It was not until after I left that I read the Martin report and saw that the SC reforms had all been tried before to no avail and that CHS had always worked very hard to destroy the character of anyone who would ever try to bring reform. It was not until after I left that I learned that the stories of adultery and Betsy's case of undue influence were really true. And it was not until after I left that I learned that CHS' health problems were not heart attack or Alzheimer's, but abuse of drugs and alcohol.

In conclusion, I left because the leaders would not follow the instructions already in place to choose new leadership. It was not until later that I found out just how deep the corruption went.

Thank you all above for some very touching posts. Guest2's post really brings out the main reason people leave: CHS/TBS/GGWO have a history of not playing by the rules they so stridently lay on others. This is also why "dialog" with G300, Mr. Bean, and other defenders of the Mother Ship is such a frustrating exercise. What they categorize as slander, etc. here is standard operating procedure in the cult. Must be I just don't get the deep teaching that explains the difference.

Along with my many siblings, I was raised in the Stevens ministry. As an adult, I was able to move away geographically, but still continued to vicariously stay part of the ministry by listening to taped sermons, reading publications, and keeping up to date with relatives and friends.

When did the light began to dawn? Hearing about the guns and ammunition stored in the Lenox basement, and an heiress bilked out of millions did not quite do it for me. When I tried to question things critically I was admonished, and psychologically spanked, “you are listening to the lies of the enemy” “you are operating in the flesh” “the devil attacks your thoughts” “the enemy causes confusion” “get your thought-life under control” …. Manipulation tactics left me outside in the cold, unloved, unwanted. So, I the stuffed the critical thinking, and reached for the love, and warmth of acceptance.

Since I was living far away, many different church assemblies were attended for a while, and then discriminately discarded. Listening to my spiritual advisors, I agreed that all other ministers fell short of measuring up to this greatest of God’s anointed.

One year, I came back to visit the family in Baltimore. It was on a Wednesday night, that once and for all, the blinders fell off, my ears were unblocked. Carl Stevens spoke with a hypnotic, soothing cadence, but his words said absolutely nothing that made sense. After the service, bodyguards stood watch, while he was escorted past adoring supplicants all thrusting forward for one look, one word aimed in their direction from their adoring leader. Only one mini-skirted, long-legged beauty received his attention as she held an umbrella over him and cuddled into his embrace. They entered the back seat of an awaiting car which pulled out of the parking lot, leaving behind awestruck followers. Standing there in nauseating shock, I almost said it aloud, “Elvis, has left the building.”

Never again, after that night did I ever believe in the ministry. All critical reasoning was unchained, I was free. …but consequently, totally cut-off at the main artery from my own family who still followed every word, drank every drop.

Years later, I discovered Factnet, and read of the deception, the corruption, the magnitude of GGWO wounded lives. Many were like me, cut-off from their loved ones, searching for resolution for the lost relationships, maybe even some kind of restitution for the wasted years. Healing was taking place, questions were answered, wisdom began taking over dusty corridors of the brain, the joy in life flooded in. Freedom.