I will start with a couple of questions in my mind.

1) Why the unsaved people are to be confronted to win them to the Lord, but the pastors should be left only to the Lord to deal with?

2) Bruce Moon wrote about forgiving in his post on 24 Mar 2008 (Missions Mayhem). Sounds good, but have you (concerns any Greater Grace pastor anywhere) shared the whole truth with your local church about the history of GGWO/TBS and Carl H. Stevens and the long history of cover-ups (lies, maligning and deceit) so that they have the opportunity forgive as we should? Or are we to forgive only, if we accidentally happen to find out what is the rotten core of the GG system and how it has been protected through the decades? Why is not the opportunity given to everybody in the GG churches?

3) Is it some kind of explanation of the day to the continuing sorry state of GGWO as a church and as a missionary organization that there are other bad examples in the world? It does not sound like a good one when at the same time the GG pulpits and the Grace Hour spew out self-admiration as if they were the best denomination (yes, it is a denomination) in every aspect of Christian living, the "God's Remnant Church".

4) I have completely lost my trust to any GG pastor in the areas of honesty, confidentiality, doctrine and conduct in God's household. I believe there is a huge number of ex-GGers that experience the same distrust. The leaders of the GGWO should ask God and among themselves, what should they do in order for us to regain this trust? I can tell you that preaching to us does not help.

Some more questions:

Why is the spreading of slanderous lies about people who leave or question the leadership of GGWO frequently commited and demanded by the GGWO leadership?? All this from a group that calls themselves followers of Christ Who Himself condemns lying as sin.

When GGWO pastors presumptiously condemn others who question them or speak up for being divisive, why do those same pastors coerce people to reject others including friends and loved ones just for leaving GGWO or questioning its leadership?? Doesn't that sound hypocritical when GGWO pastors have divided so many friends and loved ones against each other over many years??

Concerning areas of trusting any pastor at gg:
I agree with you and even more profound for me, is that over time I see that I can trust no one that is in the GG system...anywhere.

And what troubles me is that now I don't think I can truly trust anyone connected to any church although my heart wishes it could.

I just figured this out the other day.

When it was offering time in my new church they said, "if you are new here don't worry about putting anything in for offering. And for those who call this church their home..." BAM. It struck me...I feel homeless (church wise) because I can't get myself to trust. Which honestly doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would but it just struck me as a poignant moment in my recovery process.

Hello Epistula,

Your revelations about trust moved me and as I read it all I wanted to say to you was"It's really okay" and I think you are coming to that conclusion on your own.

In my journey out of the mindset in ggwo, I also was aware of that distrust, but for me, instead of looking at it as an inability I saw it as wisdom...now that "blind trust" I used to place in those who claimed to know God more intimately than I did, has been replaced by confidence in my own discernment and insights into human nature.

I am joyfully learning how to trust my own intuition and perceptions. And I believe that it should never be otherwise. No one knows what is best for you better than you do. I have found it takes more faith to learn how to respond to that inner voice than it does to just go along with the herd. It is frightening at times but boy, so liberating.

You know, the scriptures tell us that a house divided against itself cannot stand...as individuals, when we are divided from our own sensabilities about what is happening we are vulnerable to manipulation. No one should be manhandled under the ruse of spiritual authority.

I think you are on the right track...best wishes.

New Kid.

Epistula,

I had just the same experience a while back, exactly. And I found it to be poignant, too.

One of the most profound things I'm learning is that I can't just control things, as in "get myself to do x," or "have peace about x" simply by having accurate perceptions and empowering attitudes (even though i am all for accurate perceptions and empowering attitudes).

No, I actually need other people, and repeated trustworthy input from others in order to rebuild my ability to trust in church contexts. Scary. But by the grace of God I have seen it happen somewhat.

Thanks for sharing that moment in your recovery process.

Chrysalis' makes a very good point and I wanted to clarify, the process of learning how to trust in my own perceptions and gut feelings, is not to say that we do not need others. I am glad she(?) mentioned that. Interestingly I have found that the two go hand in hand. Now I can accept more input from others because I know that a healthy spiritual relationship is an exchange, not a one way proposition.

Never meant to imply that we are islands unto ourselves or self-sufficient, just that true fellowship or healthy relationships are such that do not eclipse our individuality and personal experience of God.

Chrisyalis thanks for reminding me of a major truth, that the cult wins if we let our negative experience keep us from ever being vulnerable to others. When I think of Christ like love, the number one thing that comes to mind is how vulnerable love becomes...even when it hurts, the key is not to harden...but at the same time we can do our best to find nurturing, healthy relationships.

As for me, at least for present, I am doing it in other venues besides a formal church and discovering some wonderful people as I move about.

New Kid,

I quite agree with everything you've been saying, too. It's wonderful to revive to the fact that there is such a thing as true fellowship and healthy relationships, huh?

I'm glad that new venues and wonderful people have opened up to you. For a while after I left, I found some solace and a form of fellowship via home church forums/mailing lists. There are a lot of people out there who make having their own highly personal, vibrant relationship with the Lord (versus church routine) a priority.

However I did not find anyone geographically close by, and I felt the need to have "real live humans" in my life, so I went back to looking for them in church buildings. And overall I would say that's been more positive than not.

At a church I just visited recently, the small group topic I happened in on was the need for healthy conflict resolution! I was more thrilled than I wanted to let on that everyone was digging into this topic B) At the same church I was at a women's Bible study last night, and someone was commenting on the church being stirred up spiritually, and that there seems to be a working of the Spirit. The one speaking has been there less than a year, and went on to say, "not that I think you are perfect or anything," at which point the pastor's wife giggled, and then laughed out loud at the thought that they were perfect. Then she said, laughing, "I can tell you on good authority that we are not perfect!" Which I was also more thrilled at than I expressed.

Yes, Chrysalis, I agree.
We do need other people and their trustworthy input. And as more time passes my ability to relax and form new friendships has increased. Funny, now that I'm in the real world I'm actually finding "real' Christians who have a clearer understanding of loving the brethren. I've always been one to do anything I could to help someone, to my own and my family's hurt I suppose. Now I am realizing that it's OK to rest and let others help me and it's also OK if I'm overly cautious.

Trust is in the relationships, the day to day basic stuff.
Church is perhaps secondary in my Christian walk from now on.
Interesting how no other church that I've visited has ever said something to the likes of "you need to be in a local assembly".

One pastor I spoke with told me to just rest and not do. And that while he does ask for volunteers all the time, he wanted to make sure that I knew he was not talking to me. He said that he hoped we would be able to just rest and heal. And so far so good. People there haven’t been all about getting us involved in their causes.

In meeting others and attending a small group, of which GG has no idea how to do, we've been able to actually form a friendship or two. Funny, we're all so guarded, which I think is just human nature, but little by little I'm finding that I can actually reach out, and not just to help, but to be helped.


Thank you, New Kid.
Yes, learning to trust in my own perceptions and intuition is a wonderful process. All the while I was in GG, there were countless times I went against those perceptions. I understand why I did but now am so glad I'm free to trust at least myself in most cases.
It's a process, it takes time and fortunately I'm not bothered by that. I'm in no hurry to rush this process. It took years for me to see the truth, and while I feel there is much that I may never recover from, mostly because I reside in Baltimore and family still attends GG, I find that my freedom is slowly being revealed to me even in the smallest things.

I was never a scripture quoting Christian, so I love when life reveals itself and unwinds the twisted doctrine that I lived by in the new relationships that are coming my way.

Although I feel that having a sense of belonging is important and I wish that I had that, I’m finding that it's not essential for me in order to function.

Note to Administrator:
Thank you for creating this area for uninterrupted conversation.

I have a couple of questions:


1. Why is that TBS/GGWO felt that they were above the law of the land?

2. Why would anyone think that God would want you to sin to prove your love for Him?

arguendo, these men really truly believe that they have special gifts from God.

They also really hate being accountable. No wonder they preached so much their doctrines about "touch not thine anointed" (never question them or speak up about them!) or "never repeat a matter" (about their sin!!) or about "coverings" (to coerce others to cover up for them!) or about "delegated authority" (just blindly obey and serve them!). They never wanted to be accountable to anyone but themselves. They just wanted everyone to serve them while they ran around to do anything they wanted!

Divine right of kings.

It's difficult to figure out the 'whys.' The "Divine Right" thing is certainly part of it. There's a discussion regarding "gradiosity" on the other thread, and two current GG members who demonstrate the attitude on all their posts in the open area.

To disagree with a GG pastor is to disagree with God Himself. It's never stated directly, but it's constantly implied. "God showed me..." Well, when he shows me I'll listen. All these guys have huge egos.

I couldn't connect the Bible as God's word with the administrative standard of ignoring it when necessary. Hypocracy, that's why I left. The facts regarding lifestyles and fraud showed up later.

Money, "that's the grease that makes the wheels turn" as one of the chief enablers once said. There's a 'why' for you. There was a pathological fear of losing members which motivated actions. Donations could go down, significantly if there was a mass exodous. "You have to feed the monkey..." I haven't witnessed the new regime but people have posted about continued "don't listen to evil" messages. Especially now that most members have at least one friend who went with IAGM, a huge open door to violating the "no talk rule."

After going through it all trust is definitely an issue. It's hard to go anywhere without someone saying something that pushes a button. The way I feel about it now is "what's in it for me?" Does it help my spirituality or does it open old wounds? I do feel a need for contact with other believers. But I just want to be "normal."

"It's like Lenin said, just look for the person who will benefit..."

In other words despite their claims of teaching the true love of Christ, too many of these guys simply do not care about people.

How true. People at GGWO are really looked at as just commodities to be used by the leadership for their own programs and ambition. Many GGWO pastors I knew when I was still there didn't show one ounce of humility. The were extremely arrogant and were searching for people to serve them. Anyone else unable or unwilling to serve their selfish interests were discarded like garbage and likely to get marked with slander. These guys were not shepards like Christ would be, they were users looking to make a name for themselves.

"God can afford to sacrifice people."

I heard this face to face twice from 2 different Finnish GG pastors and both times it made me so angry I could only barely contain myself. Both times the question was about something another GG pastor had done that had caused a person or a number of people to leave the church.

After the second time, when I heard it from the mouth of a senior pastor I realized how the pew-fillers are just expendables that serve only the purpose of propping up the bloated, but fragile egos of the pastors.

I can not find ANY Biblical basis to say this or act this way some of these so called pastors do. What about leaving the 99 for the ONE that has strayed?

Standard GGWO policy is to utterly abandon the one that strayed and mark them with lies to turn the other 99 against them. People are truly expendable at GGWO and are being used for the pastors' own ambition and glory.

Such statements are a heart-breaking blasphemy, especially when we see how often Jesus went to the "outsiders" like Zaccheus or the demon-possessed man who lived among the tombs. The locals freaked out when they saw him clothed and in his right mind sitting at Jesus' feet and begged Jesus to leave their neighborhood.

This is the Jesus with whom I am in love, who would do the same for even someone like me.

The people Jesus went out of His way to minister healing and deliverance to or to just spend time with were usually the types of people that GGWO would avoid!!!! GGWO leaders are looking for people that are already able or willing to serve them (more than God) "wholeheartedly" or at least people they think have reached that status after the soulwinning blitzes. The hurting, the sick, the demonized, the downtrodden, etc. were the people Jesus went out of His way to be with and bless with miracles. Sadly, GGWO routinely avoids them. They likely don't think they're usable enough for their own programs and agendas. So GGWO just passes them over like they're trash as they look for someone else they hope is more "usable"!!

Why do people attend church?

I find I have to go back historically for the reasons for church. I need to reach back, back to the very basics. What is the real meaning for it, what purpose does it serve, what needs are being met by attending? Is there anything else that can serve just as well? Is it time well spent? Are there illegitimate by-products taking place in it? Is the modern version of it a cheap imitation or the real thing? Is it doing more harm than good?

Church is good for you socially and emotionally.

It binds you to a community, it gives you a belief stucture external to yourself, and it allows you to share your burden when things are bad.

IOf course, I'm talking about a healthy church.

While healthy churches definately exist, they can be very hard to find sometimes. Good discernment is very important too. Some churches can look healthy and doctrinally sound at first and be anything but that in reality. Too many churches are not up front about what they really believe. Often churches with abberant doctrines will take steps to hide those doctrines and may take other steps to lure people in and hold on to them. Good detective work and some digging around can help unmask those abberant doctrines so you can move on to something else that's healthier. Shop around and let God direct your steps. If your spirit is uncomfortable in a church or you don't feel God's peace there, chances are very high that something is very wrong with that church. Move on in that case. A good church is a great blessing but a bad one is a lot worse than not having one at all!!!

The pastor of the church we visited Sunday stopped by yesterday. He asked me what I was looking for in a church and I parroted aguendos above statement: church is for community involvement and to strengthen you emotionally. He corrected me with church is to worship and serve God.

If that pastor had been Carl Stevens or Tom Schaller, he might as well have said that a church is for worshipping and serving the pastor!!! As for normal churches, a big part of it should be for worshipping and serving God. But the people that attend need to be cared for as well. They need to be fed the truths of God's Word, prayed for, and cared for when it comes to personal needs. The people, especially the leaders need to love and support one another as a church family.

I agree. I need to be familiar with my community, encouraged by other Christians, as well encouraging to others. I need to have a place to worship God with other believers. I serve Him and worship him each day outside of the church building but gathering with others is, well, fun!

It amazes me the depth of the pathology that is revealed on this forum. After over 3 decades of being in GG, the only people who I have ever seen mistreating anyone are the same ones who left and became the most rabid enemies. That also goes for the ones who elevated P. Stevens to a pedestal, above other sinners. When it became evident to them that Pastor was a sinner like them, their little balloon was popped and they became instant critics.
As far as slander goes, I never witnessed it , though anything is possible in any human organization. However, it is highly hypocritical of some of you geniuses on this site to be crying foul in this area when you have taken slander, backbiting, evil-speaking, maligning, and gossip, and made it your pastime. You missed your true calling by several centuries. It's called the Spanish Inquisition.

Amazing!
Awesome!

Blah,blah blah!

I did witness the slander,maligning and vilification firsthand so stuff it up your pompous self righteous lying bunghole.

Don't bother trying to pull this crap off around here Lbean. Everyone here except the Guest knows that you don't have a clue!!!

You guys are nothing more than little -old-lady-gossips with no place else to go with your b.s. than this forum. You should publish your own supermarket tabloid.

Come on Lbean, can't you come up with anything more substantive than that or do you want to keep proving to people just how clueless you really are? Or do you just want to condemn people because they don't worship their pastors like you probably do or because they say things you don't want to hear?? If I really wanted to find some tabloid grade material, maybe I should try to find some tapes that may contain recordings of some of those raps where Carl Stevens and others spread lies and gossip about people who left GGWO or stood up to them!!!

Look Mr. Bean (with appologies to Rowan Atkins) (sp),
if you have been in GG for any time as a pastor then you are either
a.)Lying because you would have heard the flaming of former members by either Tom or Carl or any one in leadership at raps or
b.) you "are" totally clueless.
So,
take it where someone gives a rats behind and has no clue about the truth of error and multiued abuses by the "leadership".

Oh yeah and
c.)A combination of a and b.

It's taken me a while to get back with a response, but here's a quick one. As to my being clueless, I know enough to know the character of the people being discussed after the decades of being right in the midst. Any discussions of individuals involved mitigating circumstances that made it necessary, at times, to bring things out in order to deal with the situation and the people or person discussed. It was typically in a small group with those who were in the situation themselves and had to deal with it. They weren't published or broadcast publically the way you guys do constantly here and elsewhere. Did it ever get out of hand? I'm sure it did. Human nature being what it is, that wouldn't be surprising. But this brings me to a point that people on this forum don't get. Regardless of whether or not your charges are true, two wrongs do not make a right. Is this true, or not? As I said before you guys think you have every right in the world to rail against brothers in Christ, while the Bible says you do not. When you get to Heaven and stand before God, it will be just you and Jesus and not a single other soul for you to blame for your wrong behavior. You will own your wrong decision to slander and malign, nobody else!
Another thing you might consider is that the negative little weasels that populate this forum, together with all the other enemies, constitute a small minority of all the people who have ever or still are in GG. Your continual railing has not effected the on-going success of the ministry. Sorry. You are wearing out your keyboards and spitting into the wind. I guess that in some kind of sick way this utterly vain pursuit satisfies a need. Well, have at it.

L.Bean deals with "negative little weasel":

Rated PG/Language

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...videoid=1626938

Nice try to attempt to silence us Lbean. It got you absolutely nowhere!!! The Bible does not command people to stay silent while wolves that call themselves Christian pastors continue to mislead, manipulate, brainwash, and abuse God's precious people. There is no excuse for their behavior, nor the advocating of keeping silence for them!!!

I just love it when you refer to the people on this site as "enemies." It just save us so much time explaining what's wrong with TBS/GGWO.

Now Arg,
you beat me to the punch.

You see Bean,
that's the problem with guys that brown nose doctors of error.
Every one who disagrees with you is an enemy.
And,,,,,
the way you put it about those raps is a bit light on how it actually goes down now isn't it?
I've sat in on them so I know.

Your words of "who does the maligning" would be well spent if placed in the right direction which would of course be those wolves that have done nothing but lie about other brethren whose only offence was telling the truth.

You're a hypocrite Bean.
You think it well to malign those who actually care enough about others to warn them of the faulty product they're going to get with GG.
It's just fine when a "so called" pastor rails against another brother to protect his lying ass but when someone with real integrity tells it like it is you cry foul and maligning slanderer but the truth is you shove it in the wrong direction and you know it.

You ought to read the Word a bit more and get educated on the truth about warning the flock.

Very well said Dave!!!

What you see in this quote is a fundamental part of the elitist GGWO mentality and a fundamental part of that GGWO teaching that you won't hear anywhere else. GGWO leaders already presume they have it all figured out and that they are the ones with a monopoly on truth. So everyone who ever disagrees with them is automatically an enemy of God and God's assumed prime ministry (GGWO). Everyone who disagrees is a backslidden or even an unsaved liar that wants to spread slander about God's special ministry and its leaders. Everyone who disagrees is automatically wrong, wrong, wrong!!! That's the automatic presumption in GGWO circles and it is so very wrong!!! GGWO is very far from the truth!!!!

GGWO also operates by hypocrisy and double standards. Lying is perfectly okay and encouraged when its used to protect GGWO and its leaders or to discredit its dissidents. But if anyone ever says anything about those GGWO leaders, they're condemned as evil liars. GGWO pastors get to lie a whole lot about others, but nobody can say a thing about them whether its a lie or even the truth. It's the old "do as I say, not as I do." thing. The hypocrisy goes on!!!

Not enough time for a lengthy post. Attempting to silence? Such paranoia. The 1st. amendment reigns here as the rest of the country. My attempt, which you guys don't give a rat's behind for, is to point out what the Bible says. Not what GG says on these subjects. As to being enemies, you get on the internet and rail on and on, day after day with accusations that you cannot begin to verify and yet you don't consider yourselves to be enemies? I guess evil speaking against other Christians makes you friends right? Once again, there is a real pathology going on in the minds of some of you geniuses. See ya.

"When you get to Heaven and stand before God, it will be just you and Jesus and not a single other soul for you to blame for your wrong behavior. You will own your wrong decision to slander and malign, nobody else!"