Like many groups, GGWO has its own teachings, belief systems, culture, and ways of thinking. As many have joined over the years and attended many, many services, raps, mini sermonettes, Bible college, soulwinning blitzes, etc. what have they really learned. Were there teachings about Jesus Christ being the Savior of the world? Yes. Were there teachings about salvation being by grace? Yes. Were there teachings about salvation being something eternally secure? Yes. Were there teachings about Jesus coming back again? Yes. We're there teachings about the authority of the pastor? Definately. Were there teachings about obeying God rather than man? Not really. Sadly this is one of the major areas that GGWO got out of balance and with it, its mindset.

Some key characteristics of the GGWO mindset:

Blind obedience and faith in the pastor:
People have been taught about pastors supposedly having been given absolute authority over the people by God Himself. Therefore the pastor is NEVER to be questioned. The pastor's words are also automatically presumed to be words from God and therefore never wrong. Therefore blind faith in the pastor is expected of everyone.

Strong dependancy upon the pastor:
In GGWO, the pastors are the enlightened ones that are presumed to be the only ones who can safely think with their brains and not fall into deception. The people are told to never think for themselves or else end up in deception. The people are also told this is rebellion against the delegated authority through the pastor. So blind faith and dependancy upon the pastor is expected. People can have relationships with Christ and others, but only with pastoral approval or supervision. Independant interactions outside of pastoral control or supervision is forbidden and considered rebellion. People are expected to learn from God through the pastor, not directly.

An us versus them attitude to the rest of the body of Christ:
As GGWO pastors became so proud about their supposedly superior teaching, GGWO as a group became isolated from the rest of the body of Christ as an elite group. This elitist mentality resulted in people being expected to isolate themselves from other non-GGWO Christians and look down on them as lesser Christians. GGWO became a very tight nit group where dissenting viewpoints were strictly forbidden. Violators were rejected and marked as evil, divisive, etc. They also were often slandered and isolated as others were encouraged to turn against them.

Idolization of the pastor:
As the pastors were considered so enlightened above the people, people were expected to not only have blind faith in them, but to revere them, praise them, show blind loyalty to them, and even worship them. The pastors were put up on pedestals for the people to look up to them. Pastors were almost considered superhuman. How many times did Carl Stevens get those standing ovations over the years?? How come Jesus Himself didn't get that level of worship at GGWO?? HMMM.

Homogenious group think:
As everyone is expected to believe the same things as in what the pastors want them to believe, a strong group think mentality developed. Submission to the body was like submission to the pastor. Any disagreement with people in the body was often taken as disagreement and rebellion against the pastor. As so many had the same belief system, disagreement with one inevitably meant disagreement with many or the whole. Individualism was discouraged and the group think mentality prevailed. This was strongly engrained in the whole GGWO subculture.

Tight information control:
As the pastors' teachings are presumed to be perfect, any teachings or information that is negative about the pastors or the group itself is automatically rejected as evil speaking and false. Those who come forward with information like this are automatically marginalized as infected with evil, rebellious to God and delegated authority, negative, bitter, not understanding grace etc. Anything to discredit them can be used including outright lies. No wonder so many at GGWO become so incredibly narrow minded that they would reject any information contrary to what the GGWO leadership would want them to believe no matter how credible the evidence behind that information. How sad!!

This is just part of the whole story. Much, more could be written. It is truly sad how so many have been mislead into this very unhealthy group think mentality. May God be with them and deliver them!!!

Sidethorn, you have made many good points. Things get very difficult is when such leaders deny that they have created the culture you described.

How true. Not only do they deny the fact that they created this twisted culture, they deny that there's anything wrong with their doctrine, they deny that they commited any sin and that everyone who says they did are a bunch of evil, divisive liars. Its all about tight information control, deluding the faithful GG attender and discrediting and denying any reports that refute or expose the abberant teachings and abusive behavior of the GG leadership. As long as GG insiders can keep the people believing in them, believing in their doctrine, and believing that dissenters are evil liars, they can keep them under complete control to do with them as they wish.

An extreme form of the GGWO mindset would be Guest 300 himself. This individual adamately believes that the sins of a leader like a pastor must be covered up at all cost. Never mind that the pastor might be unrepentant and continues to abuse adults or even children in various ways. G300 has such an extreme viewpoint of grace that even the laws of sowing and reaping do not apply to the unrepentant abusive pastor and that God will not discipline him either. Of course G300 insists that nobody has any business publicly exposing that unrepentant individual by name either despite numerous examples in the Bible where unrepentant people were exposed by name publicly. It's basically the mentality of twisting Biblical teachings of grace and coverings to justify covering up for a corrupt pastor at all cost. No matter what the pastor does, nobody is allowed to speak up to warn others for their spiritual safety and possibly more. G300 thinks people should just stay quiet about it while the abusive pastor mauls more and more people. What a twisted mentality!!!

sidethorn,

If I can say this in a sacred way, You are one big bag of polluted air that can't even get off the ground. All the things that you understand in the flesh, you became in bondage to and now you have to lash out to justify your contrived concepts of who God is and what the church is not suppose to be. You take the word of God and apply it by sight and your own perception without the Spirit and come out with very strange conclusions. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is not privately interpreted nor can anything be added or taken from it. Private interpetation is done in the flesh without the Spirit of God and that profits nothing. Your conclusions are all contrived through the flesh and will always be opposed to the things of the Spirit. If you continue in this fashion, they that are in the flesh can not please God. You may think you are sincere and being forthright, but it is all in the flesh and comes from a carnal mind, which is at emnity with God. The cross is our only hope. Go to that cross and let the Spirit of God show you what it means to be crucified with Christ. You will come out a new person, filled with the Spirit and will understand the greatness of God's grace and mercy.

Translation,
2 Timothy 3:16Twisted; All scripture is "not" given by inspiration of God, and is"not" profitable for doctrine, "nor reproof", '
"nor correction", "nor instruction in righteousness."

It is only given to protect the "unrepentant" abusers of the flock from correction.

:wacko: :blink:

Thank you so much Guest 300 by doing such a great job proving the existance of a completely twisted mentality of dodging responsibility, cover ups for corrupt authority figures, returning childish insults when disagreed with, applying private interpretation to Scripture in the flesh, and blind faith in power hungry pastors that exists in Greater Grace World Outreach and in your own brainwashed mind!!!

As for bondage, my bondage ended when I got thrown out of GGWO for not worshipping the pastors and blindly believing their every word. It felt like a 100 pound weight being lifted off my back. I would forever be free in Christ to start enjoying His best without interference from middlemen pastors of GGWO with their own personal agendas. It was a great feeling. I wish you could find out how wonderful it is some day!!!

I can see that you're an expert in misapplying the Word by your own misperceptions and narrow minded viewpoints that you likely learned at GGWO. You did didn't you??? When I read your posts, I see a whole lot of Carl and very little of the Spirit or love itself. I see a lot of private interpretations that Carl and other GGWO pastors rammed down peoples' throats from their pulpits. And you're absolutely right about private interpretations in the flesh, they do profit nothing. That's exactly why GGWO really isn't getting very far. You got some converts, but are they really growing in Christ or in the ability to blindly follow man?? What about all those that are leaving too? GGWO is far from what its cracked up to be.

As far as the cross goes, I went there decades ago and have rejoiced in that decision ever since. My old man is gone and I'm alive and a new man that knows about grace, forgiveness and love in Christ. I also learned about how God disciplines His own like a parent disciplines children. I also learned that God's discipline is a completely different thing than His judgement. We get saved from that judgement but we are still subject to God's discipline and the laws of sowing and reaping.

A big part of the problem of the GGWO mindset is the assumption that to be under grace, coverings, and forgiveness means escaping accountability, responsibility, and God's discipline of His own. Forgiveness does not mean freedom from discipline and even public rebuke!! Being a Christian does not excuse someone from accountability or taking responsibility for his'her own actions. It also does not excuse someone from being publicly chastised by name for unrepented of sins that hurt others. No Christian has a God given duty to cover up for an unrepentant pastor that leads others astray, misappropriates church money, fools around with women he's not married to, swindles others, or abuses them. This is part of the fallacy of the GGWO categorical doctrine and mindset!!!

Having been out 2-3 years I finally start to find words to describe what was so terribly wrong in my own GGWO-experience. I cannot say it's everybody's experience, but it was mine.

It was all about POINTS, gathering points from different things. Soulwinning and any kind of outreach (sunday school) would give a certain amount of points. If your child sang in the Christmas choir, it would give you some credit. If your name was mentioned from the pulpit, aaahhhmmmm, you could live on that a couple of days. If your husband got to speak the introduction, your points were piling up. And so on. Remarks, attention.

It took a while to learn out of it, though. I gradually realized that it doesn't work that way in other churches. People don't gather to praise each other, they don't gather to get attention. The pastor doesn't preach to get attention, either, he's a fellow Christian like everybody else. He or she is on the same level with the congregation, and they all have turned their eyes towards Jesus.

What a liberation to get out of the "pleasing men" -system!! And what a freedom to live and walk being personally led by the Holy Spirit. Yahoo!

GGWO has a facebook.
GGWO "Inreach" has a facebook page started by Jason Moore.

Here's a post to that page:
"P.Jason!
The lunch rap was so awessome yesterday. Thank you for ministering the Water of Life to my soul. Thank you for living your life at the altar of Christ and serving His Body in such a glorious way!"

kind of makes me sick

The Guest who has been visiting a lot of the threads lately is a perfect example of the GGWO mindset. His actions and attitudes closely resemble many pastors and insiders of GGWO. Notice the extreme pride and arrogance towards others. He never discusses anything or considers anyone else's point of view. He preaches GGWO doctrine looking for new converts to his cause. He preaches his doctrine like he's one of the biggest Bible scholars of all time and all of us here know next to nothing. In his extremely narrow minded world, there is only one valid viewpoint, his and GGWO's which are one and the same. Any other viewpoints not in full agreement with his own are dismissed as evil reports, heresy or slander.

Notice how he interacts with others that disagree with him. Instead of honestly discussing the facts, he would rather twist facts, falsely accuse people, question their Christianity, return childish insults, or do anything to try to discredit them. He would rather engage in character assassination than try to prove factually his point of view. He also would deny facts too if he thought that would be to his advantage.

He loves to quote a lot of Scripture to try to impress people with his supposed expertise. But a closer examination reveals that he unfortunately has very little understanding of the true meaning of context of the Scriptures he quotes. Scriptures he thinks would supports GGWO viewpoints are of course quoted more. Other Scriptures that refute his or GGWO's viewpoints are either quietly avoided or twisted altogether.

With this Guest, one can see the devastating effects of GGWO doctrine and culture on a human mind where one is willing to put a man and his own personal teachings above the truth, above people, and above common sense itself.

sidethorn,

You would not have a problem with me if your heart was right and you lived by every word of God, but you don't. This site was designed with the intent to disscuss what is wrong with GGWO through slander, malignity and accusations against the believers of GGWO. When you slander one member of God's body, the church, you have slandered all. Do you forget that we are members one of another? Do you do this kind of thing with other ministries? Do you set yourself up with hodeuon to judge others? You wonder why I and some others have come against you on this site. You are not here to defend those who have left, because you say it was the will of God and the Spirit's leading for them to leave, including yourself. If this is true you all should be happy that your are in the will of God.

Your heart is not right because you are here to condemn the teachings and practices of GGWO that you resent. If you were a Spirit-filled believer you would not condemn but rather be content with the will of God for your life. You can not reconcile your behavior with the scriptures so you label GGWO as a cult so you can be justified in everything you say and practice. This is why you have the boldness to speak evil of GGWO over and over repeatedly. You have to keep justifying your mind and emotions that you are right. When you are opposed, even with God's word, you can't accept that and you have to repeat the evil over and over. You are in a cycle of evil in your thoughts, in your emotions and with your tongue. This kind of behavior is not from God nor has anything to do with God. If and when you respond to this post, the cycle of evil will start to flow and come right out your tongue.

It is going to take humility, the cross and God's grace to get you out of that cycle of evil.

Thank you Guest for coming here and doing such a fine job proving my points. Your questioning my Christianity and accusing me of "slandering a ministry of God" and "speaking evil of GGWO" etc is a classic GGWO tactic used to attempt to discredit those with dissenting viewpoints. I've been discussing this tactic and here you come doing such a beautiful job proving my point. You act like a bunch of know it alls and who is anyone to ever disagree with you except people you think are evil speaking reprobates. Every time you try to discredit me or Hodeuon, or anyone else here like this, you only discredit yourself and GGWO. Bring it on Guest!!! You do such a good job proving the arrogant, self righteous, hypocritical, holier than thou, judgemental, legalistic, slanderous, and intolerant mentality that GGWO is so well known for!!!!

sidethorn,

You can put all that on me freely, but you are here to do the very thing that this site was established and initiated to do, discuss GGWO and to judge all the things that are wrong with GGWO. That is your criterior, your motivation and your heart attitude. You will try to smear me and others, any way you can, to discredit any opposition that exposes the motivation of your heart.

"This site was designed with the intent to disscuss what is wrong with GGWO through slander, malignity and accusations against the believers of GGWO. "
---
Wrong!
This site exposes the lies,manipulation,deciet,error,and abuse that continues to this day.
And by the way "Donny" your premise that Sidethorn would not have a problem with you if his heart where right before God is worse than ridiculous it's actually "stupid" because it's just so manipulative.
If you where right with God, Donny, you would have a problem with the lies you are being subjected to by the dogma spewed from GGWO in God's name.

The lies that have separated family and friends.
The lies that have separated people from their homes and money.
The lies that place pastors on pedestals above other believers.
The lies that GGWO is the best ministry in the world.
The lies, the lies, the lies!

And you come here to speak more lies.

Thanks Dave, very well said!!

Guest, you keep proving my points about that abberant GGWO mindset over and over again. Man you really must love getting GGWO publically exposed as a cult and yourself as a cowardly liar that defends other liars and manipulators that stand behind pulpits. Dave is right, this site was set up to expose the lies, false teachings, manipulation, slander, exploitation and other dangerous practices of those that run GGWO as a pack of wolves looking for more unsuspecting Christians to exploit and devour. People that really want to put God first instead of their pastor will have a hard time staying silent when they know as much about the abuses at GGWO as many of us know about. God wants the rest of the body of Christ to be forwarned about that pack of wolves running GGWO and they will be. Thanks again Guest for showing to all the cowardice and filth of your own heart and that of the pastors at GGWO that you worship!!!

sidethorn,

Someday your tongue will stop, it can't go on forever. It may take the grave to do it, because you can't live forever with that same tongue. This is not a threat to your person obviously, just a fact of life for all. Same goes for david munson. You both should reconsider what comes forth out of your own mouth. The time is short and our life is but a vapour. Redeem the time for the days are evil. Remember the disciple's prayer...and deliver us from evil... Our words should be redemptive not destructive.

Come on Guest, do you really think such ridiculous babble like that will stop anyone from exposing the real truth about GGWO?? If you think it would, you truly have a lot to learn. At least I know I'll never have to answer to God for covering up for unaccountable leaders that mislead, exploit, and abuse people at GGWO. I wouldn't want to have to answer for that. You wouldn't want to either but unfortunately you will unless you humble yourself and change your own ways. Think about it. Oh, I just realized that you must have been taught that thinking was a sin so you might have forgot how to think. Hopefully one day, you'll wake up somehow!!!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you would have rebuke the prophet Nathan for confronting king David.

david munson,

Nathan was God's choice in confronting David. Nathan obeyed God and honored David. Nathan was a prophet that spoke for God, you are not.

I don't have to be a "prophet" to follow Mathew 18 now do I?
I will tell you this though,
I have the "gift" and it has never failed for one thing I have been led to speak from it and you know why? Because it's not of me it's of God and is to His glory not mine.
Not one time and I can provide witnesses if need be.
(says the clay pot that's used by the craftsman)

So take your twisted scriptures and manipulate those who don't know better while we will continue to expose the leadership that refuses God's correction.

david munson,

You have boasted of having the 'gift of prophesy'. Would you explain how that gift is exercised, biblically and give an example that you can support even if it goes back to your Framingham, MA days.

Maybe these various guests who write in support of gg, REALLY DO NOT support gg. But they are looking for answers?

Otherwise they would not be afraid to give their names or at least to register. Maybe they do not want the plaza to know they read / post on discussggwo?
Maybe they are having serious doubts about the validity of gg?

Why?
Don't you have a Bible to read for yourself?

Tell me why I should explain anything to you?
Why any one here should explain anything to you when you refuse to acknowledge what the Word has to say about Biblical discipline?

Why,
when you excuse leadership on the basis that they are leadership but without any correct Biblical basis to back it up?

Why?

Oh and since you have reading comprehension problems let me lay this out for you,
I wasn't boasting.
I gave all the glory to God and not any to myself in case you didn't catch that.

(says the clay pot that's used by the craftsman)

It seems that you cannot escape the habit of twisting things around to suite your spin but don't worry, I won't be letting you get away with it anytime soon.
Just so you know.

I think it's spam, amounts to nothing more than "doubtful disputations that cause strife," and should be ignored...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pKnDP0cr2h4

Whoever this Guest is, he has done more to expose the twisted GGWO mentality than just about anyone. He says and does the exact same things that so many pastors and die hard defenders of GGWO have done in the past. This whole thing about blindly defending pastors and automatically calling anyone a slanderer who exposes anything negative (even if true!!) about those pastors is part of the foundation of the GGWO mentality and culture.

As the Guest or Guest 300 is continuing to prove with his judgemental posts, here's some key ingredients of GGWO teaching and the GGWO mindset:

The finished work not only covers peoples sins to release them from eternal punishment in hell, but also releases them (especially pastors) from accountability to others for their actions, any incurred consequences from ongoing personal sin, from ever having to be confronted by others for ongoing sin, and from the law of sowing and reaping.

People (especially leaders) are basically free to do whatever they want including misleading others and taking advantage of others and nobody is allowed to uncover their sin, reprove them over their sin, or warn others about their sin for their protection.

GGWO pastors possess such superior teachings passed down from the infallible Carl Stevens that they themselves are also infallible.

All teachings from these pastors are to be believed and practiced in one's personal life without question.

All these pastors are to be blindly obeyed and worshipped at all times. Remember how they have absolute delegated authority over you that is passed down from God.

You can only know Christ effectively and be protected from deception by knowing Christ through your GGWO pastor teacher. Trying to seek Christ independantly of the pastor and any independant thinking is rebellion against that delegated authority and a sure ticket to deception and judgement from God.

You had better be in church every time your pastor is holding a service or God will get you for every service and sermon you ever miss.

Don't ever disagree with your pastor since every word he speaks are always the words of God. Who are you to ever disagree? Pastor is always right and always knows much more than you do.

Don't ever think for yourself, always let your pastor do that.

Your dissenting viewpoints here are always sinful, willful, rebellion and judgement against the pastor.

Do not ever speak a negative word about the pastor no matter what he does or says. Those who do are always evil, judgemental slanderers that are against God's grace.

You are always to stay silent and be content when the pastor gets away with continually misleading people into false teaching or abuses them.

You cannot ever say a negative word about others but your pastor can say anything he wants including slanderous lies about you.

If your pastor slanders you, turns others against you, or abuses you, you must still stay silent and joyfully take the abuse as a test from God. You cannot ever tell anyone about it or fight it. Remember that pastor's sins are still covered and nobody has any right to uncover those sins to expose them.

The pastor comes before anything or anyone else in your life including your own family. You must serve the pastor first and family second.

The pastor has the right to come between anyone he wants to protect his reputation and maintain power. Dissenters must be rejected even if they're loved ones.

The pastor's teachings, image, and power always come before people, their needs and their loved ones.

People are there to serve the pastors and are expendable when not deemed beneficial enough to the pastors' wants.

Pastors are not there to serve, they are there to be served by the people.

Serving your pastor is serving Christ since they are God appointed overlords over you.


Much more could be said.....

GGWO has as part of its underlying doctrine that CHS and the ministry were "raised up" by God with an irrevocable calling. Thus there is no point in accountability in the leadership since the were put there by God and only God can remove them.

However, I see no New Testament examples of any such "raising up" of a group, a denomination or a brand. I see examples of God calling individuals and commanding us as best we can to gather together with other individuals and even forming churches. But even then, I do not recall any examples of believers being permanently called to a specific group. I think God gives some varying degrees of organizational skills to use in forming and/or leading churches and ministries.

Exactly. Carl became so proud in what he thought he knew about the Bible that he felt he was infallible and that meant that anyone who questioned him was actually questioning God. Carl wanted a kingdom. He wanted to be served and even worshipped. So he falsely advertised himself as a flashy, fundamentalist, evangelical to attract unsuspecting Christians to come to serve him and worship him. Part of Carl's deception was to claim that he was raised up by God as an end time apostle with special revelations and teachings that put himself so far above other Christians, he was beyond fallibility and accountability to other humans. He insisted he was only accountable to God and only God had the right to remove him. He would claim that any human that questioned or challenged him was actually questioning and challenging God Himself. He even had the nerve to tell people that leaving him and his church was leaving God's geographical will for their lives. What an evil, deceptive way to use peoples' love for God against them to entrap them to continually serve a man for the rest of their lives! But Carl didn't care, he wanted to be served anyway. It didn't matter to Carl that there are no examples in Scripture supporting his teachings of one pastor for life and geographical will. He taught it anyway hoping people would still believe in himself enough to fall for this deception. Sadly many people did and many are still entrapped in GGWO to this day thinking it would be against God's will to ever leave just because Carl said so.

Of course Carl needed a group of loyal henchmen to help maintain his kingdom, control, and legacy. That's why he recruited people like Tom Schaller, John Love and Steve Scibelli to help out and then they would get to share in some of the power, control and wealth in exchange for their services. All three of these men strongly believe in Carl's teachings and legacy. They continue to teach Carl's manipulative lies like pastors having absolute authority over people in order to continue the kingdom of Carl for their own personal benefit. So the twisted kingdom and mindset of GGWO goes on even though Carl is gone. The cultic pastor worshipping mindset of GGWO continues on and on.

The mindset of "methodology", straight from the speaker's lips this morning 1030 service. That was a red flag, I heard it. Ever trying to work up some kind of worship out of spiritually starving people. Dont get me wrong, there is a spirit of love here in gg. It blows like the wind and is not subject to weak leadership. It is amazing to watch people miss out on life because of the choice to not study evidence. Warnings are necessary. The flock remains here because of the abuse it has endured. So hungry, some find manna, others are hoping and praying like I was.
Like many, 300 cannot breakthrough, the box is too comfortable.

Sadly many cannot break past all those nagging doubts that what if those GGWO pastors might actually be right and God might actually be siding with them. Then the thought of ever leaving GGWO or challenging the pastors there becomes too terrifying to endure. Nobody wants to be judged by God, so the people remain in the "comfort zones" of their GGWO churches doing exactly what their pastors tell them to.

Just a little note in reference to Sidethorn's bald-face lies at the beginning of this thread. I guess that pretty much sums up what I think of the unadulterated tripe that his communication represents. Just in case there are any new folks out there that have had very little or no exposure to GGWO, this is the wrong forum to come to for accurate information. Most of the postings here are from people that have a raging bias against GGWO have nothing better to do in their lives than to sit in front of a keyboard and spread slander and lies. My advice would be to come and see for yourself and talk to the people there. Thanks

LBean,

I've seen it, I've heard it, and I've read about it. It's a freak show. ANY place in which an entire auditorium would give a standing ovation to a man that claims "five men died" for speaking against the cult, is a CULT!

Not everything said here is true, but most of it is. Much is documented here and on carlstevens.org. However, anyone should feel free to check out ggwo.org or go to their services. Just don't take everything at face value, either here or there.

I just read sidethorn's opening post and I agree with most of his observations regarding GGWO, particularly the one about "tight information control" where he says that anything said against GGWO is labeled as lies by the leaders there.

Bean,
you're lying again.
You and "Donny" must be the same person.

You know you're lying.
You do now admit it because there are numerous witnesses to the events you say are not true.

Can you not stop worshipping the dead guy?

Go ahead and call me a liar Laird. Go right ahead. Go ahead and try to discredit me and others just because we expose the ugly truth about your cult. By calling me a liar, you're calling hundreds of others liars who carry very credible evidence and stories. Many of these people don't even know each other either! You're also calling those that put together the reports on carlstevens.org, freedomofmind.com, rickross.com, watchman.org, and a host of others sites a bunch of liars. You are also claiming that all of my stories were just made up Laird along with hundreds of others. You're claiming that the very abuses that I've seen firsthand and wrote about we're all made up. Hundreds and hundreds of people who largely don't know each other don't just pick an organization out of a hat and decide to spread a bunch of false slanderous stories about it. That's especially true when so many eyewitness accounts are virtually identical while those eyewitnesses frequently didn't even know each other. Face it Laird, the weight of evidence is overwhelmingly against you. Objective people that are interested in God's truth and the facts are not going to take you seriously or people like Tom Schaller. Your vain attempts at damage control are failing! The truth is out that GGWO is an abusive cult whose leaders get into peoples' heads to reprogram them to worship and serve the pastors over God Himself! The evidence proves it and you have nothing to stand on Laird. People see that much more than you think they do. You're idolizing a bunch of liars and living a lie Laird. You are the liar Laird and are defending the abuses of the wolves in sheep's clothing that run GGWO. Shame on you Laird and shame on you for peddling the vain, empty religeon of a dead idol.

Sidethorn,
I call what you've said lies and you a liar because you spew your bull s--t without one damn shred of evidence. I've heard at times words like "documentation", "paper-trail", and yet nothing is ever presented. Your so-called testimonies, as far as I can tell, are anonymous for the simple reason that they are false. You and many others would never put your names on this crap because of the fear of litigation. You can march out a hundred testimonies from disgruntles and spread them all over the internet, and they will always and forever remain nothing more than meaningless and empty slander. Most of the posters on this forum do not care a rat's behind for what their Bible says about this kind of activity. Whether it's GGWO or any other church, or pastor, it is still undeniably wrong. That is if you believe the Bible. If you don't, then anything goes. See ya.

Mr. Bean, if you where to actually read your bible you would realise that what you have said is not correct.

"Tell it unto the church" applies at this point.

Your denial of documentation is evidence that you do not care to be honest.
I do not wonder why so many pastors left after Sandy Cove was rejected by the usurper Thomas Schaller and the evidence does show that his position was usurped since Roger Stenger was duly elected and approved.
I imagine you have nothing to say about the truth of that matter now do you?

There is ample documentation sir but you ignore it because you have a certain bias and an agenda that doesn't meet with the truth of the matter.
That and the intense blindness that has overcome you.

lbean,

Sidethorn, along with some others are very disturbed individuals. There is something desperately wrong with their mind, heart and conscience. There conscience does not have the blood of Christ nor the cleansing power of that blood. They violate their own conscience by trampling that blood when they judge, condemn, slander and malign the sins of others that Christ's blood was shed for. Whether anyone is guilty of sin or not their conscience excludes the sacrifice of Christ and it's atoning work and consciously condemns the guilty. This is why they demand repentance and accountability because their own dead conscience has been violated by the actions or accusations that come from others. They don't want those that they condemn to be forgiven and cleansed from sin. That would mean a clean slate and they would have no foundation to accuse or bring to rememberance former sins that they have seen no repentance or accountabilty for. Even if all sin was repented of according to their guidelines, their conscience has no ability to forgive and forget because the blood of Christ is not there. They are on this site for one reason and that is to destroy the work of God in the ministry of GGWO. Many have made committments and stated this with their own tongues. Producing evidence of any wrong doing will only stir their hearts to be more vehement in their condemnation of others. They oppose the blood of Christ and want others to do the same. They have their fruit and their own works.

More presumption guest?
You know you lie when you do that so why do you continue to do it?

This is not about forgiveness (forgiveness is a given) but is about abuse/false doctrine/manipulation that has not stopped to this very day.

You are seriously dishonest guest.
In plain terms you are a lair.

There is not slander/maligning when others are warned as the word tells us to do.
You simply refuse to acknowledge the truth concerning biblical correction because it does not fit your agenda but exposes to others the flaws of your/GGWO's theological positions.

That is what you are opposed to.

It is not whether any one is guilty of sin but that they are made to stop it when it effects the flock as it has.
You do not care for the flock so you are lacking integrity in this matter as is evident in your many posts.

Hey Laird, how do you explain the Dovydenas fiasco? How about Alan/Margaret Lang situation? TWO people who put their names on it? Next time you take you head out of your ass long enough to chug some more of the kool-aid why don't you answer that?

Laird, you have a pretty flexible definition of a lie. Normally one is required to demonstrate that a statement is false before calling it a lie. I would remind you that in case of litigation proving allegations true would result in a non-guilty verdict for slander and libel - if a judge even let the case go that far.

I think it's important to distinguish between what people who post here think about God and think about the Bible compared to what they think about GGWO. There is a tendency in GGWO to believe that if someone is against GGWO, they must be against God. That's not true. We just don't believe that Carl Stevens was any different positionally from any other pastor. And we believe that experientially he was not up to the standards required by 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. And we believe the same applies to Tom Schaller, Steve Scibelli, and John Love.

Nor are all of us on the same page. Some who post here, if I may be so bold, as mad at or disappointed in God. I pray that God will help them distinguish between who He is and what He is like and how some people who claim to follow Him misrepresent Him terribly and treat others horribly. And I've heard testimony of how God has made this clear to people in the past, so I believe He will continue to do things like this. Other people who post here are very solid, mature believers. We don't all speak with one voice on a given issue.

Hodeuon

PS I also think that it's important to recognize that those who defend GGWO are not all in the same place either. Laird, you and John 8:7 and Guest300 are all in different places, and I think some of us error when we assume you're all saying exactly the same thing.