From the Crazy for God thread I got the idea that we could start a list of books and articles which have helped people understand what happened to them and helped them cope with the transition. Christian and Secular works welcome.

From The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.

"People who see their lives as irremediably spoiled cannot find a worthwhile purpose in self advancement...They look on self-interest as on something tainted and evil, something unclean and unlucky...Their innermost craving is for a new life-a rebirth-or, failing this, a chance to aquire new elements of pride, confidence, hope, a sense of purpose, and worth by an identification with a holy cause. An active mass movement offers them opportunities for both."

"Self-surrender, which is...the source of a mass movement's unity and vigor, is a sacrifice, and act of atonement, and clearly no atonement is called for unless there is a poignant sense of sin."

"The burning conviction that we have a holy duty toward others is often a way of attaching our drowning selves to a passing raft. What looks like giving a hand is often a holding on for dear life. Take away our holy duties and you leave our lives puny and meaningless. There is no doubt that in exchanging a self-centered for a selfless life we gain enormously in self-esteem. The vanity of the selfless, even those who practice utmost humility, is boundless."

Jim, wokbts@aol.com

I just saw the movie, "The Apostle" for the first time with Robert DuVal. Found out he not only starred in it but wrote it, directed it, and financed it. I had always avoided it thinking it was like the movie with Steve Martin who sort of imitated Benny Hinn.

Robert Duval's character portrayed a simple Holiness preacher in the South who made mistakes but still loved God and was able to bless a lot of people. It has a lot of non-actors playing some major parts who come from churches like these. There was something about it that was special.

Maybe Carl Stevens started out like that and just got carried away with his own fame.

Here's a link from an interview with Robert Duvall:

http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/apostle.INTERVIEW.htm

I remember being quite impressed with that movie, The Apostle when I saw it, too. I must disagree that Carl Stevens was ever a genuine servant of God. The more one looks back into the history of TBS/GGWO the more difficult it is to believe that Carl was one who started out all right and took a wrong turn. He was doing the same things since he first entered the pulpit, helping himself to both the till and the vulnerable women.

My favorite factnet post:
http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show...5374#POST115374

Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 9:20 pm: Edit Post Delete Post Print Post Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
YOGI, HERE'S HOW IT ALL BEGAN:

Yogi wrote: "As I read the intelligent and interesting posts here I marvel at HOW in the heck we got suckered into a cult like GGWO headed by an uneducated door-to-door salesman? Yogi"

Here's how it happened Yogi.

This organization was started by Carl H. Stevens, Jr., but he was just a Bakery Saleman when he got the idea.

He sold bread and cupcakes to women who invited him in and gave him some coffee and talked about his bread and and other things. He noticed how they would confide in him. They mentioned their husbands and children and told him about personal matters. He was ‘amazed’ that they would speak about these things to a perfect stanger, but he liked it quite a bit because it made him feel influential and powerful. He knew that they actually thought that he cared more about them than their own husbands, fathers, sons, sisters, brothers and daughters. He was happy and they were too. They looked forward to the Bakery Man once a week.

Then one day, Carl took a course called “CACHE”. The course taught him how to have confidence no matter what he did. It didn't cost much either. He had experienced some of these very principles in his Bakery Job. A couple of tapes and a workbook and he was on his way! He found out that he could influence all kinds of people, not just his bakery customers. He learned how to talk to people and he learned how to perceive their weaknesses. He learned how to manipulate the emotions of people and influence them for his own benefit. He learned how to approach a perfect stanger with confidence. He knew he had nothing to lose. He could always sell cakes to the lonely housewives if the course didn't work out.

One day, he was at the local store, in Maine, where he lived, and saw a young man. During the sixties, he noticed there were many confused kids who were drinking too much or smoking pot. Carl wasn't into drugs or alcohol in those days and it was easy for him to see their vulnerabilities. He had seen it in the bored and lonely housewives while he was a bakery man. Now he could apply the same principles to these kids. For the young men, who were lost, it was safe to listen to Carl.

He thought to himself..'this is a goldmine, just like the course said.'

Then, Carl became a minister in the Baptist church. In those days, anyone could become a minister. Integrity was assumed (like we used to think about bankers and accountants.) He had his own little church and he invited some of the women, who bought cakes from him, and some of the teenagers he had met, to his services. The women showed up and so did some of the young people. They would sing in the choir, read the Bible and listen to the Word as taught by Carl.

Everyone was happy. The housewives finally got a chance to get out into the world and have a break from the drudgery and the young men finally had something better to do than smoke and drink.

Then, one day, things got a little too close with one of the bakery customers...he was doing something he shouldn’t have been doing, and she was too. When they were found out (actually there were several bakery customers) the men who had been married to these women decided to confront him. That's when he ran to the back of the church and was lowered down to the ground from a rear window. Whew! Thank God, he got away.

As luck would have it, he was able to start all over again by starting his own church called “THE BIBLE SPEAKS’...he bought some property in So. Berwick and he invited many of his young friends to come and live there. He told them how they could go out into the world and even travel overseas..they could go on wonderful adventures and become respectable men. All they needed to do was to listen to him and they would be able to realize their own power. The church grew. There was a church, a Bible School, a domitory and a house where he and his family could live.

Then, Carl found a wonderful bargain in western MA. Imagine, 88 acres of land.. Moreover, there were buildings on this land...great potential, what a wonderful place for a Bible College! He was so happy!

Everything was under control. He moved into Lenox with his wife and children. The young men and some of the bakery customers went too. The young men studied the Bible and sat under his teachings. Many of them went overseas and some even married there. He made teams of them. They were scared at first, but once they got into it, they began to feel confident. Some of them felt as if they were fakes, but eventually, even these began to feel better about themselves..and they found that they could actually influence others, just like Carl.

Other people visiting the 'campus' would see them and hear their stories and were impressed. "Wow, something is happening here and it must be good. Look at these young men who once were hippie- druggies and now, they are Men Of God!"

There were all kinds of people in Carl's church now. Even other young people were impressed with the accomplishments. They were not part of the drug culture, but they had heard about it and they too were impressed with this 'church'. Eventually there were more than twelve hundred people attending a single service on Sunday nights.

For some of the youngsters he recruited, it was all they had now. Imagine, from a little hippie smoking and drinking in the woods..to a 'Man of God, leading a whole congregation and having the respect they always dreamed about but thought they could never attain. They were very happy and Carl was happy too.

He sent them out into all the world. They went to China and France, Finland, Italy and even Russia. He also sent them into the communities of the United States. Yes!..Let's go into all the world, he said, and they did.

In the very beginning, many of these young pastors drove untold miles to establish churches. There were coffee houses and pizza parlors to go to..all the way from the home base in Lenox to Boston and the surrounding communities. They mixed in with the kids. They would sit down and speak to the young people. Then, they would drive back to Lenox, half asleep, sometimes..many times nearly missing an accident (which they would later use in their sermons about God's Will towards them) and many times, just making it back to 'home base'without incident.

When they returned to Lenox, they would tell 'Pastor' what the young people told them. He knew exactly what to do with it. The next day, he would go on the radio (Telephone Time) and he would speak to the young people who were at the coffee houses the night before. He knew what they were thinking, he knew their names and he didn't hesitate to use this information to trick them into thinking that he could read their minds! Once in a while he would even speak directly to one of them, using the information he had from his traveling pastor. For example: One night, a young man told 'Pastor Robinson' that he just lost his job. Pastor Robinson told the young man to listen into Telephone Time on 9:60 AM Radio the next day. The young man did listen in. What do you think he heard Yogi?! Yes, something about the loss of a job, and how God was trying to tell him to go to Bible School! Oh the Glory and the Power of Mind Control...it has lots of benefits..the young man did go to Lenox. He thought that God was speaking!

That's how, Yogi, that's how it happened.

Love & Prayers,
Isabella

Still working on The True Believer.

"Of what avail is freedom to choose if the self be ineffectual? We join a mass movement to escape individual responsibility..."

"The attitude of rising mass movements toward the family is of considerable interest. Almost all our contemporary movements showed in their early stages a hostile attitude toward the family and did all they could to discredit or disrupt it...As one would expect, a disruption of the family...fosters automatically a collective spirit..."

"...in order to succeed , a mass movement must develop at the earliest moment a compact corporate organization and a capacity to absorb and integrate all comers."

"Boredom probably accounts for the almost invariable presence of spinsters and middle-aged women at the birth of mass movements."

"An arrived mass movement is preoccupied with the preservation of the present, and it prizes obedience and patience above spontaneous action..."

Part 2

I really liked The Apostle. My impression was Duvall was making an observation on the culture and bringing it to the screen. There are positives, but the Preacher seems to be a type of the zealous christian who despite his enthusiasm for the cause and the often positive results it produces, has no ability to manage his own life. I think the sub-point is for those who are brought up in the culture or converted to it, this type of behavior seems perfectly normal. People in that culture seem to "hear from God" all the time.

The scene where the elderly black man crawls under the covers with his shotgun was of special interest to me: that was me when Joseph Palzynski was terrorizing Town and Country in Bowley's Quarters.

Jim

Mar 11 - 10:49pm - my favorite is this short one:

That is more than a "story".
That is very similar to the narrative Chet Farmer spoke of while still alve.
With one exception. Chet mentioned an experience that Elizabeth Dovydenas had.
In the process of writing her own account about her experience with the Bible Speaks and Carl Stevens she dilligently made an effort to confirm what people told her about their past association and experience with Stevens.
Like a reporter confirming her source.
This was apparently to seperate the consistency of what people said versus random gossip.
It was said that Elizabeth D. drove to Maine and secured a signed affadavit from a former sales associate of Stevens who told her this;
When Stevens was about to leave his "Cushman" route (as I remember him referring to his Bakery sales route) he bragged to one of his sales associates: "I don't need this job anymore, I found a new racket" This incited the question from Stevens associate:"What kind of racket?" Stevens was quoted as replying: "Christianity!"

However, the one you reiterated is great too! Same ol' you know what just a different day for Carl and Co. Who are Tom Schaller and Lisa, his divine design arranged by Carl, but a couple of those x stoned out hippies?

It is 'amazing' that there are still suckers who take these GGWO fools seriously.

"Blackened out eyes, scratched on a wall
Stoned out looks from the crowd, the king will not know
On the wall it was said
The flash of his cards was sprayed with red........"

The post at 4:37pm was me. I thought I was logged on. I was replying to the Mar 11 - 10:49 post.

Scary to think how many preachers today may be using Christianity as a racket today. Time to double check preachers and what they're saying more than ever. There are still some good ones out there, but screening them is more important than ever. If the one you're listening to is playing games, time to move on. Not much point being around a pulpit that isn't submitted to God or loving to the people.

I love you all but the title of this thread is Reading List. Book reviews, movie reviews etc. Can you start another thread for testimony of former members. Thanks.

Jim

Glad you love us, Jim. Hahhaha


Anyway, after I got out, the wildest movies "spoke" to me:

One Flew Over the Cookoo's Nest with Jack Nicholson

The Stepford Wives

Clockwork Orange



Then the book, "Three Kings" gave a lot of deinition for me.

Then there was one called "The Devestated Christian." ... says it all...

True Believer continued:

"To ripen a person for self-sacrifice he must be stripped of his individual identity and distinctiveness. He must cease to be George, Ivan, or Hans...The most drastic way to achieve this end is by the complete assimilation of the individual into a collective body."

"Above all, he must never feel alone. Though stranded on a desert island he must still feel that he is under the eyes of the group. To be cast out from the group should be equivalent to being cut off from life."

"All active mass movements strive to interpose a fact proof screen between the faithful and the realities of the world. They do this by claiming that the ultimate and absolute truth is already embodied in their doctrine and that there is not truth or certitude outside it."

"It is the true believers ability to shut his eyes and stop his ears to facts...that is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy."

"If a doctrine is not unintelligable, it has to be vague...Simple words are pregnant with meaning and made to look like symbols in a secret message. There is thus an illiterate air about the most literate true believer. He seems to use words as if he were ignorant of their true meaning."

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

What about the book, "Toxic Faith"? I've heard of it, but haven't read it. Many have recommended it upon their exit from GGWO.

I personally have not read it but have friends who have that have also left GG and they said it brought many things into the light for them.

Others I would reccomend are "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller and "Ragamuffin Gospel" by Brennan Manning.

Guest of 12:33,

Did you mean "A Tale of Three Kings"? I have read that one and that was a huge eye opener for me.

Out and About, yes I meant "The Tale of Three Kings." It was good to know that others who had never been related to GGWO had gone through similar challenges and found biblical solutions. It's a short book but it was as if it were written for us.

I, too, had many recommend this book. Bought a copy. Was highly offended by the parts of it I read, before I gave up.

My impression: the authors repeatedly tried to help the reader figure out what was wrong with THEM for ever having ended up in a high control group in the first place. And then offered their own version of more of the same as the solution for what ails you.

I agree that we obviously did not use much wisdom, and that we surrendered out critical thinking skills. Beyond that, I violently disagree with those who seek to broad brush all of us as being defective, weak, needy and thus easy pickings.

I think many of us were young, ignorant, zealous recent converts. We met people who looked and talked like us. Who were also excited about religious things as we were. They could prolifically quote the Bible, and knew many others like themselves.

In our zeal, we disabled all our radar. Instead of thinking things through carefully and methodically, trusting the sane counselors of our past (such as parents and life long friends), we "exercised faith" and "trusted God" to "lead us."

I believe the defects were in the users and abusers, not the zealous people being manipulated.

When Toxic Faith's authors introduced their own theology, solutions and cures, it felt to me like the hardcore Communist supporters of the mid-late 20th century who acknowledged Communism's global failure, while still proclaiming the problem was simply no one had done it "properly" yet. Folks who still believed utopia was possible, once Marx was correctly understood...

Rant's over. Most others seem to like Toxic Faith...

Thanks, Collins, for the book review of Toxic Faith. You made some good points.

Combatting Cult Mind Control helped me when I read it about eight years after I left. It took me about 8 years of serious drinking to face both my cult experience and my drinking.

I thought the Ragamuffin Gospel was nice but it did not contain any new information just a re-iteration of things I had already thought about.

Of course, I really liked Crazy for God.
My husband got Portofino from the library. I will read that after he finishes it.

I mentioned this a long time ago on factnet, when I went to college to get a genuine education not a cult mind control education, I read a book by Alan Bullock entitled, Hitler: A Study in Tyranny. I was aghast at the similarities between Carl and TBS and Hilter and the Nazi party. Of course, Carl was less effective. Thank God! My conclusion at that time and still remains is that the nature of evil is the nature of evil. The same formulas and tools are used to control and manipulate people no matter what degree of effectiveness occur.

I went off to the cult straight from high school so I was very naïve and knew little about the great big world out there. I knew about Peabody, MA and that was about it. Hence, when I went to college a great big world opened up for me.

I wish to clarify that I had a problem with alcohol before and after TBS. I would have been drinking either way. I say this to save the typing fingers of those who wish to say I am blaming my TBS cult days for my drinking. Oh, and on the eve of 'St. Vomit's Day'.

Off topic, Jim K - The DropKick Murphy's were beyond AWESOME at the Tsongas Arena in Lowell, MA yesterday.

Louise,

Hi! Hey, this is an interesting place. I've been reading a lot today and very happy to discover that discussion is still on going in regards to our old stomping ground.

What I'd like to tell you is that our art group just sponsored a book talk with Michael Patrick Mac Donald. He wrote All Souls and Easter Rising. They aren't religious, but memoirs about being Irish from Southie. We talked a lot about what we'd like to do to change the St Vomit's Day persona. That's why I write. Even though his books aren't religious or maybe not even remotely close to your experience, you might want to check them out. He's funny and candid. This guy understands struggle, no matter who is involved. The Black youth of the city really respond to this very definite Irish guy as well as those who found some respite in music. Remember The Clash?

He's currently writing about the youth of Chelsea.

Louise- My daughter Leah knew members of DropKick Murphy's a few years back. How I heard the origin of there name is an interesting story. I worked for 8 years at an addiction treatment center in Dublin NH called Beech Hill Hospital. In Boston they used to call it the Irish Alps...one day on old-timer Boston Fire Department guy came in drunk as anything. I asked him where he was from..."Southie he said and this place beats Drop Kick Murphys all to hell." DKM was a guy who treated alcoholics the old school way by bringing them in and making them spend the night. The stories are told of how Murphy would let anyone in as long as you didn't mouth off to much. If you gave him a hard time he'd drop kick you out the front door. If, you came back an hour later and apologized he'd take you in. It became known as Drop Kick Murphys. Murphy was well known for his unwavering commitment to those struggling with alcohol and his "only the Irish" style of treatment. Glad you enjoyed their show.

Lee-Michael Patrick O'Brien is gifted with a sense of place and time. Nice to hear your voice again. Best to Jack.

Marty O'Brien

Hi Marty! Good to hear from you too! Sometimes wandering around on a lazy Sunday afternoon has great dividends! Good to hear your voices.

Yeah, Mike is blessed with a great sense of time and place. It is so evident. We're blessed to work with him. My guess is that we have an opportunity to make a significant change in relations here. It's more than diversity by looking at each other, it is diversity by touching one another and getting to really know each other.

I think I demand that kind of thing now. Can't do the superficial or legalistic stuff anymore.

Our next project is film in Dorchester. Should be kind of violent, I think. The Departed, Gone Baby, Gone. We are a neighborhood of immigrants. People who know struggle. What am I doing here??? Ha!

Be well all......lee

A daunting task - to change the St. Vomit's Day persona...

I read both books by Michael P. MacDonald and liked them alot. My adult son and I were surmising whether the DropKick Murphy's song 'Vice and Virtue' was about Michael P. MacDonald's family and the loss of four of his siblings. Of course, my son said it could be many families who grew up up in the Southie projects.

Great to hear how the DKMs got their name. I like them even more. They did a great rendition of 'Amazing Grace'.

Although not a book, I was watching the History Channel a couple of months ago and there was a miniseries that I think was called Hitler's Lieutenants that had me glued to my chair. It creeped me out to the core because of the parallels I saw between Hitler and Stevens. It summarized his relationships with people like Goring, Speer, Jodl, Hess and some others, each with their own episode.

Hitler's mantra was "Victory At All Costs" while Carl's was "(my Worthly Pond) Vision At All Costs." How the people suffer under tyranny...

I have not read any of the books mentioned on this thread except one. Three Kings. I was reading that book about two years ago (or more)and became so frustrated that it was being touted as a book that was good to deal with what we were going through.

This book was great... for Tom Schaller.

The basic premise that I remember getting out of it was this.

"Who are we to raise up our hand against Gods man! God put him there and God will take him out."

I saw no value in that premise whatsoever. I saw no New testament Church application. It was the same hollow teaching I had been given for so long. So I am to sit still and ignore all the teachings I have learned that apply to me as an individual believer so that I can excuse the behavior of a leader?

Shut up.. Wait... or go away! But don't do or say anything on your own.

Sorry. I don't buy it!

Greg

(BTW Stevens is now restricted by a official letter from the church that he is not "permitted to enter the premises of the plaza". The same guys who told us, "Yes he has some weaknesses, but dont we all, give us time to deal with this properly" Those guys have now issued a decree saying he is not to set foot in the plaza. um... In private meetings they talk about how sad it is that he has gone astray, but look at his amazing legacy! Justly stevens is now getting exactly what he dished out for years. He ,Stevens, is also publically recanting ever having put Schaller in power in his Sunday meetings with Dontremont and Demeo and others who attend)

It constantly amazes me how differently I see things , now that I have been removed from the sphere of influence of those who claim to know more about what is best for my life than I am capable of discerning for myself.

For example, the quote in Greg Warren's post (Mar 18 2008, 10:15 AM)

""Who are we to raise up our hand against Gods man! God put him there and God will take him out."

What stood out to me about these words was the implication that "the man in the pulpit" is somehow different from anyone else. That premise is the error. Once I began to de-mystify and see pastors as no different than the guy who does the oil changes, I was empowered to be just as much belonging to God as they were.

Carl Steven is not a monster, but his life represents a phenomenon that took on a larger than life dimension. He did not reach that place without the help of others who needed him to fulfill their own agendas. This happens over and over again in various environments, political, social, religious. I get kind of tired of zooming in on Carl; it only serves to reinforce the old feelings of veneration which have no basis in the facts...carl is just an old man to me now.

I think he had the power he had because people gave it to him and after a while he began to view himself as indispensable to God's work. In other words, he really believed in his super human powers and why shouldn't he when everyone fell at his feet?!

Tell you, no reward in this world or the next could get me to trade places with him.

Just a few thoughts.

richklutz,

Could you be a little obsessed in the imaginations of your own heart?

'Dear readers you must forgive this man for he knows not what he is doing. Pray that God would give this man grace and deliver him from his own disillusioned heart.'

Imagination is a wonderful thing.

Maybe. Why do you ask?

New Kid,

Noah saw what the imaginations of men's hearts were like when he was preparing the ark in Gen 6:5. God was longsuffering toward that wicked generation and only Noah and seven others were allowed in the ark. So as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of man returns Mt.24:37,38. Remember this also. Many are called but few are chosen Mt.22:14. Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it Mt.7:14. We take our chances when we fool around with things that we understand not. God does not threaten but He warns.

David is speaking to Solomon; 1Ch 28:9 'And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.'

In Prov.16:8 ... one of the things that the Lord hates is a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations.

Rom 1:21,22 'Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.'

What do we do with imaginations: 2Cr 10:5-8 'Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's. For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed.'

Scare tactic, NO! Just some things the Bible talks about concerning imaginations.

Could we please keep Guest 300 arguements on the Guest 300 thread?

Hi Louise. Hi Greg.

I read Psalm 23 today.

The True Believer continued:

"Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without a belief in a devil...Again, like an ideal deity, the ideal devil is omnipotent and omnipresent."

"Mass movements make extensive use of suspicion in their machinery of domination...Suspicion is given a sharp edge by associating all oppostition within the ranks with the enemy threatening the movement from without. This enemy - the indispensable devil of every mass movement - is omnipresent. He plots both outside and inside the ranks of the faithful. It is his voice that speaks through the mouth of the dissenter, and the deviationists are his stooges. If anything goes wrong with the movement, it is his doing. It is the sacred duty of the True Believer to be suspicious."

"Now and then innocent people are deliberately accused and sacraficed in order to keep suspicion alive."

*************************

"Once the stage is set, the presence of an outstanding leader is indispensable. Without him there will be no movement."

"Originality is not a prerequisite of a great mass movement leader. One of the most striking traits of the successful mass movement leader is his readiness to imitate both friend and foe, both past and contemporary models. The daring which is essential to this type of leadership consists as much in daring to imitate as in the daring to defy the world."

"Charlatanism of some degree is indispensable to effective leadership. There can be no mass movement without some deliberate misrepresentation of facts...The leader has to be practical and a realist, yet must talk the language of the visionary and idealist."

"The uncanny powers of a leader manifest themselves not so much in the hold he has on the masses as in his ability to dominate and bewitch a small group of able lieutenants. These men must be fearless, proud, intelligent, and capable of organizing...and yet must submit wholly to the will of the leader, draw their inspiration and driving force from him, and glory in this submission."

This isn't reading material, but music has been such an incredible healing influence in my life I wanted to share this here. I dedicate this to anyone who has left/is leaving TBS/GGWO and have found spiritual apprecitation and expression in the beauty of the Earth and God's creation all around us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATOtTXnup5Q

I agree, 100%

Beautiful. Thank you Laura.

Having read the diatribes of many GGWO defenders of abuse and error I am reminded of a few sentences from a book I read many years ago called
"Watership Down".
It is a story about a rabbit warren and in it's pages there is a statement about a certain object referred to as a Roo Do Do.

I am reminded of this because of what happens to those who come here to defend the error of GGWO.

Folks here reply with "the truth" to the defenders and
can you hear it now?
Rooooo-do-do.

The defenders get run over by it.
Truth prevails and the actuality comes to be known by anyone visiting that GGWO is way off.
:lol:

I was searching for an article on the growth of early Christianity for use in my regression analysis class project and found it was reprinted in this book:

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/content...f=9781405101806

The other articles look quite interesting in the context of this thread. I am buying the book.

Laura, Thank you for sharing the link to such a lovely song ( Mar 19 2008, 10:56 AM )

For those with any interest in the arts within Christianty, I highly recommend The Heart of the Artist. Still working on it, fabulous so far.