While adults have been misled and taken advantage of in the GGWO services and raps, children and teens have been reprogrammed to blindly serve, worship, and obey John Love and the other youth leaders and never question anything at all. Impressionable youth have been taken advantage of and misled into the same false teachings that adults have in staggering numbers at GGWO. I've personally witnessed all this for nearly five years serving as a youth worker at an affiliate GGWO church and helping out at Spring Rally camps and some meetings at the GGWO Baltimore church.

My overall story is on the "Greater Grace World Outreach" thread on Factnet. I joined what I thought was an evangelical grace oriented affiliate church and wanted to help minister to the youth there. Things went pretty good at first and then after I befriended a number of kids and their parents, the youth group and church rapidly went downhill into manipulation, alienation and outright slander against kids and adults. Instead of leaving, I had to stay in order to protect the kids I knew that were still going there from all the false teachings, lies, and spiritual abuse from the youth leader, local pastor, John Love himself and others. This went on for several more years until I was ousted and marked myself with slanderous lies for refusing to obey all the teachings of Carl Stevens, refusing to ram those teachings down the throats of the kids and parents, and refusing to practice all of Carl's teachings in my own personal life. In my case, the church labeled me as a spiritual danger and a pervert to avoid, all of which was blatently false. This is typical of the GGWO marking treatment used to turn the "faithful" of the church against those who disagree with the church leadership in any way. It is practicedd without mercy on adults and even kids!! I've seen it happen on multiple occasions!!

After I joined, the local church and youth group became extremely controlling and intolerant of any dissenting viewpoints from kids or adults. Anyone disagreeing with the "doctrine" of the church would be alienated, rejected, gossiped about, and often "marked" with the slanderous lies. Exclusive cliques were being maintained by the church leadership to keep the kids under control and in full agreement with the church leaders. Popularity in these cliques was determined largely by one's kissing up to the youth leaders and pastors and blindly believing in them in all respects. Kids that didn't comply were casted off as uncool or weird and definately evil. An entire social heirarchy was engineered for the kids to keep them compliant and serving the church. The more compliant a kid was and the more they something the leaders wanted and the more they provided the leaders what they wanted, the higher they got to be in the social heirarchy. One's popularity was largely determined by one's blind faith and obedience in men, not God!!!

The same false teachings that adults faced, the kids faced. This would include the supposed infallibility of the pastor, their supposed absolute delegated authority over the people, one pastor for life, coverings for unrepentant leaders, blind obedience, and never questioning anything. The last one really concerns me. If kids are never to question anything or anyone, what is there to prevent any pervert that could possibly be working in the youth ministry from abusing a kid?? If the kid complains, who will listen? If nobody listens, the abuse can happen again. Not only that, the complaining kid could be rejected and slandered as evil by the church. The offender would likely be covered up for since the words of kids are not taken seriously over the words of an adult, especially one with authority in the church. Proper safety checks and proper checks and balances do not exist in this ministry. No solid evidence has surfaced in recent years to show any improvement in this youth ministry. This is not a ministry I would recommend to anyone. Parents, please check things out for yourself. If your kid is not comfortable in this ministry or complains about abuse, please take their words seriously and get them out of there. Call the police if you believe any criminal abuse has taken place. Please.

If anyone has some stories or concerns, please share them on this thread. Thank you.

I have a big problem with GGWO and its leadership when it comes to children. Guest300's responses to Laura's posts point to the "doctrine" of "it's better to cover up any wrongdoing, including molesting kids, than to say anything damaging to the ministry". If it comes down to removing a child abuser or keeping it hidden, the kid is going to lose out every time. If this doesn't raise red flags, nothing will. It goes to show the lengths that GGWO will go to in order to protect leadership.

Keep posting, Guest300.

Guest,

Guest300 has done nothing of the sort. You presume against yourself as so many do here. If I deal with what the scriptures teach, you and others try to override with accusations of false doctrine and corrupt sins of the flesh. You want nothing to do with God's grace, mercy or love. You pervert the simplicity that is in the cross of Christ and you want, what kind of believers to support your supposition? You want to speak evil, go ahead, it on your own head. You have the freedom with others to do it all day long. Remember, all your sins have been paid for and covered by the blood of Christ. You want to uncover sins of the flesh. Maybe God will uncover your sins. How would you like that? This is not a personal message. Just some thoughts that you could consider.

300, the previous poster to whom you responded was speaking about CHILD ABUSE. GET A GRIP, if you think for one minute it is scriptural to cover child abuse then you need to go back to a real seminary and get educated.

You are damn right I would want to uncover "the sins of the flesh" if it involved the abuse of a child!

And if GG had abided by the federal laws, the state laws and GOD'S law quite of few would be behind bars today. And more importantly it would have saved other children from being raped and molested.

There a grown men and women carrying the burden of sexual abuse on their souls because of this damn little sociapth and his minions and jerks like you.

But Guest 300,
there is a difference between sins confessed and repented of and sins that are hidden and continual isn't there?

And,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
they are to be "dealt with in a different manner aren't they?

The safety and well being of children and teens are ALWAYS more important than protecting the reputation and public image of a church ministry's leadership. If a ministry doesn't take seriously the protection and safety of the children and teens there, that should raise some very big red flags about that ministry. Covering up wrongdoings and abuses are never okay and never justified!!!

What we need is public service messages on TV, etc.. telling children that if anyone ever "bad" touches or hurts, the child must scream and yell and punch back. That it is NEVER, NEVER ok to have "bad touching".

What we need is public service messages on TV, etc.. telling children that if anyone ever "bad" touches or hurts, the child must scream and yell and punch back. That it is NEVER, NEVER ok to have "bad touching".

add on--This re-course is because some kids never see anyone outside of "the ministry".

If you are a child or teen who is being abused and feel you have no where to turn please remember that child abuse is NEVER the fault if the victim no matter what someone may be telling you.

If you have at least one supportive parent or family member you can turn to, let them know what is going on even if you think they won’t believe you. You may be surprised by how understanding and compassionate they can be.

If you have reported this to adults and the abuse has not stopped you may have to reach outside of GGWO for help. Try someone like your pediatrician or other medical professionals or family members outside of GGWO. If this is not an option for you please call the National Child Abuse Hotline at 1-800-4-A-CHILD. You can visit their website at http://www.childhelp.org/ for more advice and information.

It is NEVER God’s plan that an innocent child should suffer abuse at the hands of an adult. Take courage and tell someone. If you don’t get help keep telling someone until you do. My heart goes out to you because I’ve been there and I know what a desperate and lonely situation this can be but remember you are not alone. Reach out for help. All my prayers go out to you!

Laura

Laura,

Seeing your zeal and concern for abused children, perhaps you should consider a career in foster care, child protective services or even starting an orphanage in a needy country which may be more suitable. I am not being sarcastic. This is a suggestion and not some advice being given.

Guest 300

May I remind you that you don't know me and have no idea what I do for a living.

Laura,

Your right on all counts.

Good grief, how can GGWO not be a cult?

Guest300 spell out their sick and twisted doctrine right here! If someone at GGWO molests children, their doctrine is to cover it up since it's paid for by Christ. It's already happened at GGWO and if it happens again, it will be "covered" up, just like Carl Stevens multiple affairs and his drug abuse.

Guest300 quotes scripture all day long to justify criminal and morally corrupt behavior. What scripture calls for standing ovations for a drug addict who claims that those who disagree with him will die? What scripture says it's acceptable to worship a man as is clearly done at GGWO concerning Carl Stevens?

I truly feel sorry for those who would consider attending GGWO. Someone would have to really be at rock bottom to find pastor worship, child abuse, stealing, and adultry an improvement in their lives.

Guest300, I sincerely hope that one fine day you feel man enough to tell a parent face to face that it is God's will for the abuser of their child to be covered and protected since it was paid for by Christ. Hopefully, that parent won't be one of your brainwashed droids. Hopefully, you'll get what's coming to you. You and the rest of GGWO are un-entreatable. You will never repent.

Great post there Guest!!! This is exactly why I would NEVER let any kids under my care near any GGWO youth activities. GGWO is too concerned about coverings (cover ups for people) and not enough about the safety and protection of kids. I would never gamble with a kid's safety and well being by allowing them to hang out at any GGWO youth event. GGWO is a cult that does not value the individual person even if they're a kid!!! How contrary to the attitudes and love of Christ!!! There are other good places for kids out there, but GGWO is clearly NOT one of them!!!

Guest,

Name for me a list of sins that would not be immoral or criminal that I could apply grace and mercy and it would not be a twisted application? What kind of sin would have to abound in order for grace to abound much more? Does grace abound much more with some sins and not others? For goodness sakes, what are they? If love covers a multitude of sins, what kind of sin does it cover and what kind of sin does it not cover? Is there a certain application for some sins and another kind of application for other sins? Show me from the scriptures what kind of sin that God's grace, mercy and love is not to cover! I need to know because there may be some sins in my life and those of my friends that God has never covered and that is a problem. If there are sins that God does not cover then what does He do with them? Help!

We're not suggesting that these sins are unforgivable. We're suggesting that when a crime has occurred, you call the police and report it. You don't decide not to report a felony because "it's covered".

Hodeuon

Hodeuon,

If anything like you and others have mentioned was to happen to me or my family I would immediately confer with God on my knees and not leave until I get an answer. Then I would obey God in whatever leading He would give. To be hasty or reactionary would be presumptuous and I certainly would not be telling anyone. It would be my business and not anyone else. If you don't like my answer, I don't really care. I believe in wisdom from above and not from below.

If you have broken a law in the society you live in, you are subject to the laws of that society. If you go to God and ask for forgiveness, and you mean it, God forgives you, but you still suffer the consequences of paying your debt to society. You have no debt to pay to God, only society. Since eternity is more important than time, you can spend the rest of your days in jail with good conscience and completely right before God.

Evidence that you meant it when you repented is that you own up and take responsibility for what you have done and accept society's punishment with your head held high because you did the right thing.

What are you hiding G300?

Tell me you already understand this. You don't hide behind the bible. You put your hand on it and tell the truth. If Carl actually convinced you that you can put your hand on it and lie because you're "covered," then you are lost. Completely lost.

BTW, Carl did try to convince his followers that this was OK because he did it in 1986. How's the koolaid G?

It seems most obvious that "unrepentant sins" are not covered until repented of.

How many times is the word "repent" used in the scriptures?
That's the key.
Repentance.

That is what we are dealing with here.
Matthew 18.

richklutz,

Tell me why King David was not ostracized when he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband betrayed to his own death. He broke the law of God that was punishable by death and he thought he was going to die. God put away his sin and told him he would not die. Read the story. As a matter of fact in Psalm 51 he was even able to go back and teach sinners God’s way so that sinners would be converted. Was God unjust to leave David as King and let him teach? Is there unrighteousness with God? If we could only have been there we would have given God counsel and told Him that the kingdom of Israel could not go on with such sin and David must be disciplined and removed from office. When Saul was king he disobeyed God’s voice and God rent the kingdom from him. Is that fair? Or, does God look upon the heart and not on the outward appearance like man does I Sam 16:7?

Tell me how Jacob deceived his father Isaac, pretending to be Esau with the help of his mother, to get the blessing and God gave it to him. How could God do such a thing? And then Jacob stole the birthright from Esau when he sold it for a bowl of lentil soup and God honored that birthright. This can’t be. There is something wrong here. If God is like that I want nothing to do with his system of operation. It is in your Bible, can you explain that richklutz? Then there is Rahab the harlot. She took in the spies and worked out a deal that her and her family would be spared by Israel. So when the enemy of Israel came to enquire of the men she out in out lied to deceive them and God honored her request and spared her family. Hoe could God honor such unrighteousness to save her family from being slaughtered? This is so confusing. I thought I knew what God was like and this is not what I thought. Join the club. Then this man called Sampson. I don’t even want to hear about how God honored this wicked sinner.

Maybe after you read God’s answer to Job in chapters 38-41 you will wise and sober up. Are ALL scriptures given by inspiration of God and profitable for doctrine, for correction, for reproof and for instruction in righteousness... in 1Tim 3:16,17? I think so, do you?

david munson,

Don't you know that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance Romans 2:4? Don't you know that if God is going to use you for that purpose you must be filled with the Spirit Gal 5:22? And I don't mean speaking in tongues!

So, join GGWO and you can do whatever you want, just so you ask God for forgiveness.

Rape someone? Don't worry, it's covered! Molest a child? Ditto! Murder someone? At GGWO it's a "categorical and precise" Get Out Of Jail Free card! GGWO doesn't even bat an eye at spouse abuse or thievery!

Lest someone get the wrong idea, there ARE sins that are not covered at GGWO. Yes, there are!

Express criticism of the Apostle Stevens and God WILL get you! Ask too many questions and you will be marked! Wonder aloud about the church finances? You will be marked! Finally, if you go to another church or even LISTEN to any other pastor, well, GGWO is going to have to make a call to Satan to see if Hell even has a place foul enough for you.

To sum up:

Rape - covered!
Going to another church - NOT covered!
Serial adultery by Stevens - covered!
Asking questions - NOT covered!
Stealing money from congregants by using lies - SUPER-DUPER COVERED!
Not being at church three times a week - NOT covered.=!


I cannot see any other solution to this cancerous cult known as GGWO other than shutting it down. A few may leave, thankfully, but GGWO will never repent. They're crazy.

Guest,

I guess I just can't make you happy. For the sake of your own private devotions, think on this. All the woman did in the garden was eat from the tree of knowledge so she could be like God. Her eyes were opened and she saw the light of her own nakedness. She covered herself with fig leaves and God removed the fig leaves and covered her with coats of skin. Why did God that? That must be an awful thing for you to accept. God covered their nakedness with Hid own covering. That is amazing!

Correction

Guest,

I guess I just can't make you happy. For the sake of your own private devotions, think on this. All the woman did in the garden was eat from the tree of knowledge so she could be like God. Her eyes were opened and she saw the light of her own nakedness. She covered herself with fig leaves and God removed the fig leaves and covered her with coats of skin. Why did God do that? That must be an awful thing for you to accept. God covered their nakedness with His own covering. That is amazing!

...a list of sins that would not be immoral or criminal Child (and spouse) abuse is immoral, intollerable, and criminal.

Talk about diverting from what is being addressed.
What may I ask has speaking in tongues
(I don't even do that) got to do with Matthew 18?

Can you stick to any topic for even one moment?

No you can't because you have a problem with the truth.
You defend what Christ doesn't.
You excuse what Christ condemns.
You refuse to address the heinous behaviour of "unrepentant" liars and thieves who use God's Word for their own devious intentions.
And you refuse to address the need to rebuke and legally deal with child abusers all in the name of protecting twisted doctrines.

Can you say "enabler?"
That is what such twisted dogma does to people.

You are afraid to face the truth.
You have been deceived.

COME TO THE LIGHT.

If someone breaks the law by harming children, we report it. If someone breaks the law by harming my family, I report it. We are to observe Romans 13:1-6.

You do yourself a disservice to the Body of Christ by writing what you did. You should be ashamed.

Guest300, how would you know that you were hearing from God and not just experiencing a conditioned response?

You poor thing. OK, I'll try and spell it out for you, but just because you asked so nicely.

1. David had some things going for him:
a. God's law was the same as society's law
b. When confronted, he repented.
c. It discredited his authority and alienated many people from him, which he accepted because he was humble.
d. He wasn't a lying, psycho piece of s--t like Carl Stevens

2. Saul admitted nothing. He was an arrogant jackass. God had no reason to rent the kingdom from him because He was the owner (landlord humor). Your pastor-for-life is more like Saul than David in that respect.

3. So are you saying that Jacob's and Rahab's deception is the reason why your pastor could screw women while his first wife was dying of cancer and then lie about it when confronted? Is this his permission to coerce an heiress out of millions and then lie about it on the witness stand?

4. Yeah things worked out great for Sampson. That was an excellent reference. It was a very effective argument for how God uses sinners. I'll bet he planned to have his eyes gouged out and imprisoned for months or years before he committed suicide in a building collapse.

5. Thanks for not typing Job 38-41. Are you saying that you speak as God did to Job in that passage?

You do know that if God required licenses to own swords you wouldn't be trusted with a pocket knife, right?

Guest300

You are absolutely correct. YOU cannot make me happy. Good thing I don't look to you, or any other person for my happiness. Actually, I'm very happy.

When God provided a "covering" for Eve, he was correcting wrongdoing. Eve was naked. God gave her clothes to correct her nakedness, NOT to hide her wrongdoing. Why would God "cover" Eve? At this point, it's only Adam and Eve. ADAM KNEW HE WAS NAKED, TOO! Why was a "covering" even required, even by your wacked-out logic?

A responsible person, if they see someone naked in public, would do the same. The action of providing clothes for a naked person addresses, and in some cases, corrects the problem of nakedness.

How is nakedness a problem, or possibly a sin? A naked person might have been robbed. They need clothes. The person might have Alzheimer's or some other malady and they didn't know they were naked. In those cases, you provide clothes to help.

If a person is walking around naked in public by choice, it's a different story. In this case, a responsible person will "cover" or dress a naked person to keep others from being offended or harmed. The nakedness might tempt a brother or a sister. The nakedness might be seen by a child. The nakedness might cause a car wreck. Providing clothes for a naked person in this case addresses wrongdoing.

How convenient for you to twist scripture like that. You want to advance the doctrine of "covering", which is just a means to enable immorality at GGWO. You do so by taking the word "covering" and define the word the same way every time you see it. Weak logic, Guest330, but it is designed to support your lies. Can a lie make another lie true, Guest300? God put clothes on Eve because she was naked, nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't to hide her sin, it was to CORRECT her sin. God does not always correct sin. It's that "free will" thing. There is just a "wage" for sin, which is death, that will paid one day unless it's been paid for by Jesus.

You also seem to be overly fond of David. David's sins are right there in the Bible for all to see. They were NOT "covered" in the twisted sense you try to pawn off as some sort of superior knowledge. This is only speculation on my part, but I wonder if David had continuously sinned, would God have still used him or would he have been smitten like so many others in the OT? My feeling is that David did not have a consequence-free life.

You must be Carl Stevens. How surreal! I'm actually talking to the MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

You look a lot taller on TV.

One thing we know is that Rahab was commended for her faith. That's the important thing. Lying is normally done for personal gain, promoting evil, misleading others, and taking advantage of others.

Many of these threads refers to behavior that is unlike Rahab's. We are speaking about lying for personal gain, for avoiding responsibility, for tearing down other believers, and for keeping believers in the dark regarding truth and and truthful situations.

Concerning David, you conveniently leave so many things out. David tried to hide his sins. God exposed it publicly for all to see and read. David's life was spared because he confessed his sin. He was forgiven and cleansed. There was no guilt to come into the presence of God. But the consequences of his sin did not go away. His son did not live. His reign never retained it previous glory. The sword did not depart from his house. The next four heirs were murdered, his household was full of rebellion, and his wives were violated.

Jacob did not steal Esau's birthright. Esau sold it. Heb.12:16 speaks about what kind of person Esau was. Rebekah had the promise (Gen.25:23) that Esau would serve Jacob and told Jacob what to do. There were consequences both for Jacob and Rebekah because of their action.

Stevens and certain leadership on the other hand try to evade responsibility for their lying, slander, false doctrines.

Samson's disregard of the Spirit of God caused him to be imprisoned. He lost his eyesight; a perfect picture of how his eyes were attracted to ungoldy relationships. He was chained; speaking of how his freedom to do what he wanted came to an end. Sure, he destroyed God's enemies in the end but he did not benefit from it. He was dead, no longer to be used by God. God heard him because he had finally become humbled. Notice, God didn't cover his sin. He broadcast it for all to know and read. God used him because of his humility.

Stevens and some GG leadership try to cover their bad doctrine, their lying, their devious division of the body of Christ. This is not humility nor repentance.

The people you mention confessed their sin, humbled themselves, and they responded according to faith. We speak about a leadership that has lied, slandered, speak corrupt doctrines and have evaded accountability and responsibility. There is a big difference. Don't soil heroes of the faith with the actions of the unrepentent.

What's even worse is not only has the GGWO leadership refused to repent of the lying, slander, manipulation, exploitation, and other abuses of people, the GGWO leadership refuses to admit that they have sinned in the first place!!! They act like they're so holy and never did wrong but are so quick to condemn their critics and others as evil, divisive, liars that sow discord amongst the Christian brethren. Many of the very things many GGWO pastors accuse others of doing like sowing discord, they do themselves. GGWO is NOT a ministry of integrity!!!!

Some of you remind me of those liberals that had this special bottle of champagne reserved for a day of celebration when President Ronald Reagen would take his last breath. Not many have the heart after God like David, whose heart smote him when he torn the hem of Saul's shirt. Saul was a man that was jealous of David and came very close to killing him on several occasions. David, risking his life, would take his harp and play for Saul to drive the evil spirit from him. Saul hunted David like a dog to kill him but David loved Saul and would not let anyone disgrace him even in his death. David's heart was always after God from the time of being a shepherd boy to his appointment of Solomon. David always honored God's appointments. From most of the posts here, it is obvious what your liberal hearts are after and who you truly honor.

Guest 300,
Refute anything I had to say about David. You can't because it is the scriptural facts. You are the one that conveniently leaves out the historical account and mishandles the whole counsel of God. You speak generalizations and never deal with refutations specifically. Your weakness of speaking the whole counsel of God shows more and more. Please study to show yourself approved unto God. You are lacking.

Liberal? Is that all you can come up with?

Seriously, 300? Does Tom know you are posting this garbage you call the heart of God? Seriously, do you think for one minute he or any one else in leadership would back you on this issue of child abuse? As I said in my first post on this subject, GET A GRIP! The little sociopath covered plenty of child rape and molestation but I doubt Tom would do the same. I think he would be livid to find you representing the ministry in this way. The Catholic church was not exempt years after the fact, do you think TBS/GGWO is?

No Longer A GG Wife,

You and others are the ones that make negative assertions in response to my posts. Maybe you folks can't help it because of what is in your heart. You need some positive things in your life and a few more glasses of wine perhaps. This is not a personal attack, just a suggestion that might make your heart a little more merry.

Just because you assert that something is not a personal attack, doesn't mean that it isn't. There is no component of your post that addresses the Spiritual Abuse of Youth at GGWO or disputes/debates what other posts have stated.

So I take it from your deflection to personal attack that Tom does not know you are posting here. I assume you are a pastor because you have way too much time on your hands and an obvious dislike for impertinent women. You probably went unseen for many years under the little sociopath and your moment in the sun has arrived under Tom.

A word of advice: Give Tom a call and find out his view on this topic of child abuse. And ask if he minds you throwing your opinion of covering child abuse all over the internet.

Guest300,

This is some really silly stuff. I thought I'd get angry, but there's no point. You just really can't understand that other people can disagree with your theology without being demonic, can you?

Concerning this particular post, it's a really good attempt at a deflection. It starts with a typical bait & switch, although to be fair, this isn't one that Carl Stevens or GGWO invented. It's the bait & switch back and forth from political conservatism to Christian conservatism, without stopping to define what either means. And the associated bait & switch between political liberalism & religious liberalism. (Sure, we can define conservatism to adherence to the original form of a document, but the political and religious documents are different....)

Why do you take almost all your examples from the Old Testament, especially from the life of David? Isn't GGWO a preciseness ministry? Doesn't it claim to be dispensational? Then why don't you look to God's instructions to us in the Church age as to how we are to live in relation to government? It sures looks like we're supposed to obey them in Romans 13:1-7. Why wouldn't you report a crime to them whom God gave the power of the sword?

Hodeuon