John was my friend and roommate in Lenox and Baltimore. We prayed for and traveled to Turkey and I was glad to see that he eventually returned there. We worked together as "pool slaves" for Ed Canino on the Berkshire Chapel and lived on peanut butter during the lean times at "Hidden Roach" apartments in Dundalk. He was always an encouragement to me in those days and I am so sad that I was not there to be one for him when he needed the same.

http://istanbulgg.blogspot.com/2008/02/our...ember-john.html

Oh my! I am very sorry.

I knew John years ago...just two weeks ago another friend and I who have managed to come out from under the ministry fog were talking about him and his struggles. Quite honestly, his untimely death not only deeply saddens me, it angers me...I didn't have to be in communication with him over the years to understand that there was no real intimacy in the ministry to provide a refuge for someone facing struggles such as he was. He was probably pawned off from one pastor to another. None of them know how to deal with thing beyond the narrow scope of their doctrinal boxes. If only he knew there was a great big wonderful world outside of gg...if only he could have brought himself to reach out and trust an "outsider" and to be able to connect inwardly with another human being in all of his frailty...instead he probably tried to "get right" and brave it alone...if there is one feeling I remember experiencing the most in Baltimore, under carl's preaching, was that terrible sense of "aloneness" and alienation from other human beings, I was full cognitive dissonance and red flags, but there was no place to bring these internal conflicts up without being suspect as a "reprobate." How I escaped is the real story of where my true faith begins. Yes I am angry, especially that the people who wronged him through emotional and intellectual neglect and deprivation in the name of "body life" will have the last say about his life and never face their part in his untimely death.

John was always a friend to so many, myself included. When I came to my first GGWO IntCon in 1995 as a lonely, wounded, and very anxious soul, John befriended me in his quiet way. John embraced the "poverty of Christ" and indeed Christian celibacy in a unique and very holy way. Although he possessed a tremendous sense of humor John always seemed very kind, concerned, and appropriate in his communication with others. From my vantage point John was a REAL man and I doubt he was conscious of the depth of the problems at TBS/GGWO because he simply too busy being a REAL Christian!!


Brian

he was simply too busy being a REAL Christian!!

Yes-- like the children's Book "The Velveteen Rabbit" -- John was the real thing. unlike chs and some of the imposters at the plaza.

Isn't it all the more of a tragedy that he could not find within this "community" someone who could really plummet the depths of the human experience. What really gets me about ggwo is that no one ever says "Hey, ever think that this might not be the place for you?" You never hear that from the pulpit...that kind of breathing space is anathema to them...They are so goddamned presumptuous about being the perfect will of God, THE destination spot for everyone, to think you are not meant to be there is entertaining the forces of darkness...to me the true mark of a community of faith is that they give you space to question your role in their "purpose statement." In gg those who doubted if they fit in or belonged were always blaming themselves or trying to adjust to the "teaching." It didn't matter what your personal feelings were as long as you served the greater cause of the "body." There was no faith in that...it was bondage.

In the name of grace and the "finished work" they lay one heavy load after another on the human psyche and spirit...and then provide no safe haven to challenge their self appointed soveriegnty over the individual...does anyone out there have an inkling of what I am trying to say?

Mace and Newkid and others who were close to John, I'm sorry for your loss. I never knew him that well, just as one of the guys you could joke with and who was around for outreach and had a heart for Turkey.

Newkid, what you said ressonates. So many unqualified people counseling in GG--so many uncaring people in charge of other people's lives.

The reason why so many who leave GG find themselvs with seemingly more problems is that without GG's "covering" (read false covering), people have to deal with psychological issues that should have been dealt with years ago. In GG, the philosophy is to deny any problems and be strong. This is easy for people who are cold emotionally, like the three stooges running GG now. It's also easier for leadership not to have to deal with thorny problems like real life but keep the coorporation going.

The European conference is just in a few weeks. And yes, it will be held in Istanbul. May John's death cause some to think and realize that God has something so much for them...called His love.

John came from a good Plymouth Brethren family and had a strong foundation. He had a genuine hunger for God and I pray that it has been satisfied abundantly. While the general shallowness of the Mother Ship is a scary thing, the thought that has kept me from sleeping tonight is how few "normal" churches are able and willing to bear the burdens of afflicted souls. People with real problems are avoided in favor of those who make us feel comfortable. We naturally gravitate towards "low maintenance" relationships.

Mace,
that's so true.
I am thankful for my time of work at the old Fernald School in Mass.
There I learned how to look beyond the face into the soul of a person to see the real individual within.
My eyes where opened wide to how we many times judge with our eyes without seeing the truth about a person.

One such instance was when I had to feed a man called Ralph.
Ralph had cerebral palsy and I was under the impression that he was not intelligent because the disease can give that impression if you're not careful.

He quickly changed my impression with his joking antics.
He ,while carefully watching my response, pretended to choke on his food.
When he saw that I was getting nervous he laughed out loud spitting his food all over the place.
He did this twice and then I realised how intelligent he actually was because he invented a game to keep himself amused while at the same time scaring the hell out of me.

I went on to learn "his language" and was able to communicate with him after I learned that he could actually speak.(if I listened well enough)

That lesson alone has benefited me in many of my dealings with other people over the years.
I may be looking at the face but I'm really looking beyond through the spirit to see who the person actually is.

This I learned not in a church but in a secular setting.
Places that Jesus would have gone to to meet with the real people.

John was a good guy and a good christian. He had a positive outlook on everything and like so many of us he was in it because he believed in Jesus and he believed the Bible. I can remember his smile and his laugh and how smart he was. He was never self-righteous and never judgemental. He was one of the good guys.

It is difficult for the survivors to answer the question "Is there anything I could have done?" In cases like John's the answer is often no. GGWO's lack of interest and complete incompetence in handling mental illness aside, it might be unwise at this time to blame them. Without asking John it's impossible to know what he was going through. Sadly, it seems even professional treatment in this area is lacking and many well to do and famous people have taken the same path. It is just so sad.

I hadn't seen John in over 13 years. In a conversation with an old GG friend last year I heard he was a surfer. I never followed up on it and I wish I had. I hope conditions are head high and glassy with a 5mph offshore breeze and plenty of sunshine for him now...

Jim, wokbts@aol.com

This is so true Mace. I've seen this again and again for decades while attending numerous fundamentalist churches. People who needed healings, deliverances, counseling for emotional or other issues, or help with other major needs were routinely ignored and rejected. The "cool", successful and popular people of the church usually would avoid these needy brothers and sisters in Christ hoping they would just quietly and permanently disappear from their midst and become someone else's problem!! The very people that needed help and attention the most would very often be the same ones that would be rejected and often gossiped about. Needless to say, they didn't get their needs met!! When the popular people would go out for lunch after a Sunday service, the hurting needy people would rarely if ever be invited. At the home fellowship groups, the hurting people would usually be avoided and left all alone. The hurting wouldn't get the ministry they sought and got rejection instead. Personally I've seen more than enough of this shit to last me a lifetime. My days in these types of fundamentalist churches are over. This problem seemed to be the norm and not the exception. So I've moved on from these types of places and haven't regretted it at all.

With all that aside, I never did have the pleasure of meeting John. Sounds like he was one really nice guy I wish I could have met him along the way. This is a sad loss and I do want to offer my condolances to all involved here. May God be with everyone involved and comfort them.

SIDETHORN

"My days in these types of fundamentalist churches are over. This problem seemed to be the norm and not the exception. So I've moved on from these types of places and haven't regretted it at all." Sidethorn

That is exactly where I am at Sidethorn. Never again. No regrets either in fact I am giddy with the purity of faith I experience away from all that stupidity. I am no longer intimidated by the dogmatists and their steady stream of bible quotes; as a woman I feel so liberated from those idiotic notions of "male coverings." barf, barf. I have found more true fellowship and spiritual growth now that I am back in college studying literature and going to hear local folk musicians and poets then in all twenty plus years in ggwo/tbs combined. Intimacy is a scarey thing and I found in the ministry, people used the pulpit to escape having to hash out their real life issues in relationships...so often I remember going to a friend to just talk about a problem or question and after five minutes the fog would roll in and they would inevitibly say..."Why don't you go see Pastor?" No capacity to be a real friend, to think critically, to invest personally...they had nothing left of themselves to give! Being a genuine human being with conflicts and doubts wasn't on par with carl's agenda...being a clone was. Still there were men like John Von Buchwald who managed to touch people's lives...if anything it was probably because of his struggles.

Good words from Jim Kennedy too...love the image of the ocean prime for surfing...he is free.

It is great to be free and have genuine fellowship with others that actually do care about others. Who says I have to be in church building to find that. Often I found good fellowship far away from church buildings. Sometimes I had a Christian brother with me in the car driving to the amusement park to ride the roller coasters on a Sunday morning (when the lines were much shorter) and we had more quality fellowship that day than either of us would have found in dozens of church services put together. In church there were far too many shallow people that didn't really care except for how to kiss the pastor's ass as his little personal servants. Then they would exclude you for not being exactly like them in every way. The pastors themselves were dogmatic, arrogant, and controlling. They thought they knew how to run your life better than God or yourself did. Their own sermons were a putrid reflection of all that. Nice to be away from them and free.

Sounds like John Von Buchwald was for real and did care. At least John made a difference and made things better.

I watched the GGWO memorial service recently. There were some good memories and they had John's surfboard and some really great pictures.

Last night my son and I went to see the Blue Man Group. As they did "Up to the Roof" I cried thinking of all the crap and of people like John Von Buchwald. Such a great guy and the years of "teaching" left him with no answer but to hang himself. He deserved better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvRd_wGiMig&feature=related

I was cleaning files on a hard drive and found a copy of this picture, which brought back a flood of memories:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_...ozhian_Cossacks

John and I bought nice prints of this painting in Bulgaria for about a quarter. He used it for his campaign poster when he ran for president of the student council at SSB in 1986 (yes, they actually had such a thing). Some of the higher-ups like Dan Lewis thought it was a little outré, but we were a wild bunch back then.

We also bought fur hats in Istanbul with tails on them, probably made of dog skin or something like it. They were great for the winter in Lenox :).

By the way, I had no idea at the time of the content of the Cossacks' letter to the Sultan but it certainly stands as a classic of insulting correspondence. The painting still is one of my favorites and I hope to see the real thing someday.

I .... don't even know what to say. I just found out about this today, and I just don't know what to say. I feel like an a$$ for not knowing, and going to the memorial.

JVB was a cool guy, period.

We weren't the closest but I would call him friend. We went on camping trips, hiked together. He taught me some tricks to drying out your tent that I still use, and every time I do I think of him. Just last weekend, I was camping with my son, and while drying my tent out thought "that JVB was a smart fella".

DAMN, I'm pissed.


Sorry to bump this thread up if you all had closure or what ever.



-Jason

No apologies necessary at all. John WAS a cool guy and your thoughts in his memory are very welcome.

i heard from pastor stevens own mouth in either abd or service that maybe God wants you some where else. so there you go . its not as you say although we are humans and responsabilities in order to be kept must be carried with a sense of confidence which can easily be mininterpreted as pride. i believe you need some forgiveness. if your willing to talk, im available. let not the devil gain power over you but call on the mighty Name of the Lord Jesus Christ!
thanks, jairus :)

jairus adams nathanadamsjairus@yahoo.com
:)

jairus adams,
Am I correct that you are asserting that Stevens didn't teach geographic will?
If you are then I have to challenge you since I heard him do it numerous times over decades
and I am willing to bet that you'll get more resistance to that assertion from the many here who have heard him do the same with their own ears.

Jairius,

I am sure you have every kind intention...but I have many wonderful individuals to talk with should the need arise.

In over 20 years of being in 3 services and several raps a week...plus over 110 meaningless credits of bible college...perhaps I could count on one hand the times someone may have acknowledged that it was the will of god for someone to be elsewhere. But those were strongly conditioned comments...conversely I do not have enough fingers or hands to count the number of times I as an individual and others in general were intimidated by the teaching (from pastor's own mouth and even whispered in my ear by him at raps) that the notion of leaving "home base" or quitting "outreach" was something the spirit would NEVER lead you to do...and then often added "but the devil sure doesn't want you to be faithful!" (the implication of course was that leaving was "of the devil.") I have witnessed these things with my own eyes and ears...I have also felt the stifling sensation of being in bondage that I always blamed on my "carnality" instead of seeing the truth about carl steven's manipulative, abusive practices from the pulpit.

I also have specific reasons to have said what I said about John's life. Based on conversations with people who do not post here.

As for the need for forgiveness...I am not sure what you mean by that...
I have no grudges or ill will towards anyone...if I did not go through the sham spiritual experience at ggwo I would not have the beautiful connections I have with people now...nor would I understand just how precious these relationships are.


Be well.

New Kid,

I have to comment because you slammed a ministry and its leader.

Quote: '...if I did not go through the sham spiritual experience at ggwo I would not have the beautiful connections I have with people now...nor would I understand just how precious these relationships are.'

It took 20 years, 3 times a week with raps, 110 credits at Bible School, all that outreach for you to come to the conclusion that ggwo is not for you. However, you are thankful for the 'sham spiritual experience' during all that time that helped you have beautiful connections and realize how precious relationships are only after you left? You are saying that God used those 20 years to get you rightly related to people? I suppose that those 20 years had nothing to do with the will of God and being rightly related to God. But of course, God had to leave you in ggwo for 20 years just to call you out and show you what He was really like. I suppose you had nothing to do with being there those 20 years. During that time did you pray for the will of God? Was God faithful to you and His promise in Eph.1:9? Did you feel that you were out of the will of God all that time? If you were in the will of God while you were there, why did you leave the will of God? Maybe Pastor Stevens was right and was being a good shepherd and caring for you, but you went negative and accused him of manipulating and abusing people.

Guest,Stevens did manipulate and abuse people.
There is extensive record as to this "fact".

Coffee guy,

Do you feel abused?

Coffee guy,

One thing that I purposed when I first became a believer, was that I would never accuse anyone of wronging or abusing me and I applied that to others. No matter how things seemed outwardly, God was doing something greater on the inside because I believed the word of God. If anyone could have complained of being abused it would have been Job hands down. I don't think any human being has come close to what Job experienced in his humanity, in his flesh, in his family, in his livelihood and with his friends. Can you imagine having a wife that wanted you to curse God and die (Job 2:9). What a help-mate! God took care of that. Although Job cursed the day he was born, God was able to snap him out of that and rewarded him double for all that was taken from him. God did not think very much for Job's so-called friends and their counsel. Don't get too high and mighty about all those things you call abuse.

Not at all.

I feel good about defending the flock against those who choose to abuse it.
I also feel quite sad about those who attempt to protect those same abusers.
They will have much to answer for even though they may be saved brethren.

The very thing I "purposed in my heart" was to Love the sheep of our Lord's fold and to protect them at all times against wolves that the scriptures foretold would come.

That day has arrived.

Hi everyone.

I was so sad to hear the news about John. We were in Lenox together in 1985. If I remember right, we worked at Avalon (a.k.a. Hillcrest Ed Center) together. I can't believe that it's been over 20 years since I was there.

John was a great guy. I have to agree with several of the people who have posted here. It's a real shame that none of our so called "Christian counselors" could have helped him.

I don't know the details surrounding his death, but I am really sad about it. :(