GH 2/19/08 -Caller: “I went with the elders.” “They agreed there was lying going on, and they covered it up.”

Schaller: “That cannot happen.” “You need to leave and find another church.” “I cannot be part of that.” “But don’t so discord.”

Caller: What if people ask us why we left?

Wright: Matthew 18:17 explains what to do. He notes that the passage ends with “let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector”.

Commentary: That passage also says, “Tell it to the church.”

Wright: “Under the believer-priesthood, I think you have the right to be silent…that the word of God may not be slandered.”

Commentary: Matthew 18:15-17 reads: “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.” The “tell it to the church” part is Jesus speaking an imperative. Why don’t Schaller, Love, and Wright encourage the caller to follow this part of the passage when they encourage him to follow all the other parts? Why don’t they want him to do what Jesus commanded?

A good example of how GG won't go far enough with regards to discipline. Their recommendation is to go away quietly - let the sin prosper.
Edited

I wonder if the case has to do with the caller on 5 Feb:

(Emphasis mine) See how the "quietly" is repeated in Scibelli's answer. This is the teaching I used to hear, too, "Leave quietly." Wright's "Don't listen" is a classic, too.

It's not a surprise that there is a cut out the proper context parts of scripture that place you in accountability to what God's Word actually says.

I hope that people who listen to TGH recognise what's taken place here and turn to the truth instead of just allowing these usurpers to indoctrinate them.

I guess they don't agree with what the whole council of God has to say.
At least that is what I get from such.

The guys running GGWO probably never did really agree with the whole council of God, particularly the "tell it to the church" part in Matthew 18. Carl and his buddies don't want to be accountable to anyone and want to continue to run the church THEIR way. So no wonder they want people to leave quietly and stay silent forever or remain at GGWO and fully submit to the pastors and serve them. The GG leadership has stuff their hiding and they want it to stay covered up. That's a big reason there's so much taught about coverings, never repeating a matter, and the public airing of the "dirty laundry" of a church being condemned as such a horrible sin against brethren and God's Word. GGWO is all about cover-ups and it shows. No wonder people who leave GGWO were told to stay silent.

Then how many times were those people who quietly left and stayed silent still end up getting slandered by GGWO pastors after they left??? HMMM.

I know that many here have tendencies to be critical of GGWO and the radio broadcast you are referring to. The one who asked what to do about the pastor who gossips could consider the creativity that the prophet Nathan used with king David. He told him a compelling story that struck David to his heart. I believe that Nathan knew the heart that David had toward the Lord and entreated that heart. Nathan never accused David but lovingly convicted him that resulted in Psalm 51. This story is certainly part of God's counsel, given by inspiration of God and is profitable for correction, reproof and instruction in righteousness. If the pastor has a heart after God, I am sure that he will respond to Godly conviction and his weakness will become his strength because of God's grace. I believe that Mt. 18 is given to restore others in the spirit of love and meekness and not given in the spirit to expose the sins and weaknesses of others. The pastor should be given the space needed to respond to God as David did in the above Psalm. The pastor is a believe/priest just like you and me. If you legislate Mt.18 you run the risk of alienating him. Instead of him drawing near to God he withdraws in isolation. That is not good for him or for the church he pastors. I would want the same for him as I would want for myself. God is very patient and longsuffering. He is not quick to judge but is merciful and kind. He waits to be gracious. If the pastor continues to gossip each one should be led of God in their believer/priesthood. I can not dictate what that should be no more than I could in a marriage having problems.

It was the Grace Hour hosts who initially referenced Matt. 18 as the guideline for the situation. It was these same hosts who left out the part about taking it to the church. The verse says nothing about quietly leaving and finding another church which is what the hosts of the program suggested the caller do and the hosts gave no scripture reference to back up the suggestion.

Yes David wrote Ps. 51 after his meeting with Nathan, but he also suffered some severe consequences for his sins and instead of covering it up, it was recorded in the Bible for all to see.

Leaving out the "tell it to the church" part of Matthew 18 has been standard procedure at GGWO for many years. The leadership of GGWO doesn't want people to know the ugly truth about itself!!! So they'll preach other parts of Matthew 18, but not that public exposure part.

Numberous testimonies have been posted about how people have lovingly, respectfully confronted Carl Stevens and other pastors under him IN PRIVATE about their wrongdoings only to get nowhere and see Carl and those other pastors continue in their wrongdoing and arrogance. Often these same people found themselves isolated, alienated and publicly slandered by Carl and those pastors. Quite a few have lost friends and loved ones as the GG leadership sought to turn people against them. Unfortunately, no solid evidence of genuine repentance on the part of the Greater Grace leadership has ever surfaced, even to this very day. People are still being manipulated and exploited. People are still being reprogrammed to depend on their pastors and blindly obey them. People are still being led astray. The "talk to them in private" part has long passed and no alternative is left but to "tell it to the church"!!!!

" Nathan never accused David."

2 Samuel 12:7 And Nathan said to David, "Thou art the man". Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
2 Samuel 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
2 Samuel 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2 Samuel 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

2 Samuel 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: "but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun."

Consequences followed after Nathan stated that David was "the man".
Open and public consequences.

Mathew 18 is a continuance of the order of consequences being openly displayed by "telling it to the church" and treating as a heathen those who refuse to repent and submit to this biblical directive.

Refusal that is the trademark of GGWO and it's "leadership".

There applies no "cover up and keep quiet" doctrine that is in line with the Word of God concerning these issues that's a man made excuse for continuing in the error and abuse of position.

God has made plain what is to take place at this juncture.
Tell it to the church without compromise.
Any arguments to the contrary are fallacy.

a servant....a servant...mmm....

Considering this is discussggwo, I have to ask myself. What is a servant. Bob Dylan's song, "You gott a serve somebody."

Before giving a knee-jerk answer, think for a minute quietly, whom do we serve? Some would say they serve God's man. Some would say they serve the ministry.

There is a difference between being critical and teaching false doctrine intentionally. I think it is naive not to discern between those two. Listen to the Grace Hour and you will hear A LOT of UNFOUNDED criticism against other churches. That is being critical. If you teach Mt. 18:17 says "leave quietly", that is a gross example of false teaching.

The one who asked what to do about the pastor who gossips could consider the creativity that the prophet Nathan used with king David. He told him a compelling story that struck David to his heart. I believe that Nathan knew the heart that David had toward the Lord and entreated that heart.

I read from the Bible that it was God who sent Nathan to David (2Sa 12:1). It is written in the Bible that it was God who knew David's heart (1Ki 9:4, 11:4 etc.). There is no verse that indicates Nathan knew his heart. Is there anyone who knows the heart of another person (Jer. 17:9)?

Nathan never accused David but lovingly convicted him that resulted in Psalm 51.

The conviction resulted in Ps. 51 and also other things in David's life, I am sure. But there were other results as well. I believe the sentence that was delivered by David and partly changed by God resulted in 1) the death of the first-born of Bathsheba (2Sa 12:7), 2) the rape of Tamar (2Sa 13:14), 3) the murder of Amnon (2Sa 13:28-29) and 4) Absalom's revolt and death (2Sa 18:9,14). The fourfold sentence in 2Sa 12:6.

If the pastor has a heart after God, I am sure that he will respond to Godly conviction and his weakness will become his strength because of God's grace.[/I
You have a lot of faith in man. Why do you think Jesus said the words in Mt. 18:16-17? Because he was sure that half of us are Nathans and the other half are Davids? No, but because he knew what is in our hearts (Mt. 15:19).

[I]I believe that Mt. 18 is given to restore others in the spirit of love and meekness and not given in the spirit to expose the sins and weaknesses of others.

What gives the right to expose only to the GGWO pastors in the name of "the table of organization"?

The pastor should be given the space needed to respond to God as David did in the above Psalm. The pastor is a believe/priest just like you and me. If you legislate Mt.18 you run the risk of alienating him. Instead of him drawing near to God he withdraws in isolation. That is not good for him or for the church he pastors.

Do you seriously think that if he continues to lie from the pulpit or keeps gossiping behind the scenes is good for him or for the church? I think there is a risk that one or more believer-priests from the pews withdraws in isolation. Oh, I am sorry, I forgot that the people in the church do not matter. It is only the one pastor for life that matters.

I would want the same for him as I would want for myself.

Me too. If I was in his position, I would expect the people in the church stand up for the truth if I am off and express it loud and clear. If I had lied I would have to take back my lies and ask for their forgiveness. After that I will be free and it is up to them if they forgive me and give me grace.

God is very patient and longsuffering. He is not quick to judge but is merciful and kind. He waits to be gracious. If the pastor continues to gossip each one should be led of God in their believer/priesthood.

I agree and it does not change anything I said. I am open to correction, if I am wrong.

I can not dictate what that should be ...

Still this is what is taking place in GGWO. "Leave quietly" is an example of a man-made doctrine. "Maturity barrier" is another. "Touch not my anointed" where the anointed are only the pastors is another. I do not think these are sins that are just between man and God. They influence the lives of thousands of believers in GG churches globally.

[/I] ... no more than I could in a marriage having problems.[/I]

Why is it that the marriage is always in the picture when the GGers speak about the relationship between the pastor and a believer in the church? Marriage is not a type of THAT relationship. Anyone in his right mind can not compare a divorce and somebody leaving a local church, but still Tom Schaller uses that illustration over and over again. I have never learned, where is that in the Bible.

Pentti J. Perttula
Pori, Finland

Critical? Is that what the servant calls it? Is the public exposure of false shepards and their false teachings critical in and of itself? Is the exposure of their manipulation of people? Or the reprogramming of people to depend on their pastors more than God? Or the cover ups for the leaders? Or the lies that were spread about people who left GGWO or questioned it? No, its not being critical. Its called "telling it to the church" as is described in Matthew 18. The word critical would fit GGWO very well though. How GGWO pastors have criticized and condemned people who left or questined them. Even spread lies about them to turn others against them. If anyone is critical, its the GGWO leaders who are the same ones criticizing others who leave their group and have the nerve to call those others critical just for publicly speaking up about it all. Such hypocrisy!!! Maybe they should rename themselves Greater Hypocrisy World Outrage.

To Sibiricus,

With all the men and women you know, do any of them have a heart after God? Does Billy Graham have a heart after God? My answer is yes to each of the questions.I do not think it to be presumptuous to know when someone has a heart after God. You might want to read IChr.13:2. The bible says in IKings 11:4 that David's heart was perfect with the Lord his God. There is a beautiful testimony that the scriptures make in Acts 13:22 concerning David having a heart after God and fulfilling all of God's will. Nathan knew David and was aware of the reason that God had chosen and anointed him king through the prophet Samuel. You can find this in ISam.16:7,13. God looks at the heart. It is an easy thing to know those that have a heart after God. They seek God with their whole heart. They love the Lord Jesus Christ. They love and edify the brethren. They are involved with the things of God in their home and the work of the ministry in some fashion. They serve God in some capacity with the gifts and talents God has given. They hunger and thirst after God's righteousness. They are busy seeking out the lost and bringing them to the Savior. They follow hard after the Lord. They love the word and hide it in their heart. They love to pray. These are some of the ways of knowing a heart that is after God. I have seen all of this in the heart of Pastor Stevens and those of GGWO. It is unfortunate that you have not seen the heart of God operate in the lives of those here in GGWO. I hope the you will see God's heart in God's precious body elsewhere.

That's just it. In order to find church leaders that really did have God's heart, we had to leave GGWO and go elsewhere. Many of us can honestly say that we couldn't find that at GGWO since the leaders there were for the most part too busy serving themselves instead of the people or God. Now were gone and many of us have found leaders with God's heart where we are now. We're much better off now than we ever were at GGWO.

a servant,

you said, "It is an easy thing to know those that have a heart after God. They seek God with their whole heart. They love the Lord Jesus Christ. They love and edify the brethren. They are involved with the things of God in their home and the work of the ministry in some fashion. They serve God in some capacity with the gifts and talents God has given. They hunger and thirst after God's righteousness. They are busy seeking out the lost and bringing them to the Savior. They follow hard after the Lord. They love the word and hide it in their heart. They love to pray. These are some of the ways of knowing a heart that is after God. I have seen all of this in the heart of Pastor Stevens and those of GGWO. It is unfortunate that you have not seen the heart of God operate in the lives of those here in GGWO. I hope the you will see God's heart in God's precious body elsewhere. "

"They love and edify the brethren"
Yes and then they go and talk about them behind closed doors. You must never have been in on those sessions.

"They are involved with the things of God in their home and the work of the ministry in some fashion"
In Carl's home...he had anything but the work of God going on, oh sure, the work of the "ministry" of self preservation.

"They serve God in some capacity with the gifts and talents God has given."
How do you know they are all serving God? Perhaps they are serving their church or ministry or pastor thinking that that was serving God. That by doing what the pastor wanted, they would please God because they were "operating under the covering"

"They hunger and thirst after God's righteousness"
Some people really did. The leadership? THAT was just a game of manipulation.

"They are busy seeking out the lost and bringing them to the Savior"
With what kind of follow up? Why is it that GGWO never grew? Look at popular churches today, Lakewood for instance, I mention that because GG puffs itself as if it's a huge church. They've never outgrown their building. As a matter of fact when GG remodeled they actually removed a few hundred seats. They seek out the lost only for numbers in their reports at staff meeting or to wow the church members of how many they brought to the Lord. They don't spend any time actually helping these people build a relationship with the Savior. Which actually is a good thing. GG Christians have a very twisted view of Christianity and commitment to God.

"They follow hard after the Lord."
Maybe some follow the Lord but most just follow directions from the pulpit.

"They love the word and hide it in their heart"
They don't know the word. They hide what they think is the word in their hearts. All they are hiding in their hearts is the twisted interpretations of the word. And the only thing Carl and Schaller hide is their corruption.

"They love to pray."
They love to show they pray.

"I have seen all of this in the heart of Pastor Stevens and those of GGWO."
You have been dupped. Wake up. It was a show and now is a circus.

Servant,

First of all, thank you for coming here and discussing with us. Then to your questions. There can be a vast difference between what I perceive - yes, even as a born-again believer - and what God knows of a person's heart. If our perception was 100 per cent correct all the time there would be much fewer verses in the Bible about deception. Even the born-again believers deceive each other. It has been going on since Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5.

To your first question my answer is yes, I do have perceived many people who have a heart after God. Only yesterday I spoke to about 150 of them. Do I know their heart that it is perfect before the Lord? No I don't.

Who told you that or did you "knew" that, too? You knew it wrong.

How about answering the questions I asked in my post instead of answering only those of your own.

There are quite a few members at GGWO that do have God's heart. Too bad the same cannot be said about the GGWO leadership. Carl Stevens and his men led many sincere Christians astray into depending on pastors more than God as well as getting overly involved in serving the GGWO church even to the point that they can't spend enough time with loved ones and friends. The people have been led into bondage to the leadership that seeks to be served instead of serve.

My faith does not percieve any of the things that you say you have seen. I have no contentions and I am not here in GGWO to be contentious or cause division in this local body. Many of those that have left GGWO differ with you while others agree with you. I must agree with God no matter what way my brother goes. My eyes are only on Christ, not the flesh or the old sin nature or any sin it produces. The word and doctrine taught here has always convicted my heart to go after God by faith in the grace and mercy of Christ. The finished work of Christ is a perfect work without any flaws or blemishes. Many believers choose not to embrace the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for their brothers of which I chose to embrace. You may need justification for your decision to leave a spirit filled and God fearing ministry, but there is never any justification to sow discord among the brethren. You have chosen a direction and course of conduct that does not promote the life of Christ among every believer that is hid in God. I have seen many come and go over the past 35 years. I also know that Christ is not divided and Satan is an accuser of the brethren. You may consider yourselves to be a brother in Christ but your actions deny your confession. You may feel you have the right to do what you and others are doing, but it is not the work of God nor is it new to Christ or to those that live godly in Christ. I am not accusing you, I am stating what you are like and the work you are doing. You and I are what we are and will be rewarded according to whether our works were wrought in God or not. God and His Word will have the final say and I have a witness in me of the truth.

My heart and the Word of God tell me not to excuse intentional unrepentant errant doctrine that brings one under bondage to a man's agenda to make more of himself than he ought.

My heart and God's Word tell me to protect the flock from wolves in sheep's clothing without being A respecter of persons.

My heart and the Word of God tells me that if I ignore what I know is error and do not warn others that I am being complacent and am in effect assenting to such error.

My conscience is clear in this matter but it wouldn't be if I ignored such damaging falsehoods as the kind of error that has been mentioned in previous and multiple posts.

Dave

To: Mr. Munson and all posters,

To say the things you and I have espouse on this thread is one thing but to say them in the light of God's countenance, face to face, will reveal what truth you and I have in our heart and conscience. This light will reveal the nature of the work that we do. We are opposed to each other as to the light we say we walk in. One of us is walking in the light and the other is walking in darkness. Woe to the one who is walking in the light that has turned into darkness. How great is that darkness. Those that walk in darkness shall not see the light. We have to be in the light to see light Psalm 6:9. Remember, Jesus said that they that follow me shall not walk in darkness and he that walks in darkness knows not where he goeth. If we say we have fellowhipship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. What communion has light with darkness? God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Those that walk in the light are those that do the will of the Father and the same are my brother, sister and my mother. These are some of the scriptures that we will be accountable to and will judge us in the last day according to John 12:48.

Is it that you see only that which you want to see? I hope not! You say that you want to agree with God no matter which way your brother goes. Are you saying that you would knowlingly cover up for a pastor who repeatedly physically abused his children if that were the case? Would you just turn the other way like a coward and just "let God handle it" while those poor children get beat up some more?? Is that what you're implying here Servant? Would you cover up for pastors and others no matter what they do because you think that God is teaching this or you think that would be divisive??? Would you rather be courageous public exposer of wolves in sheep's clothing like Jesus was when He publicly rebuked the Pharisees or a cover up for others like some GGWO pastors you may now know are walking in sin?? Or do you know that implying that publicly exposing false shepards that call themselves Christian pastors is always divisive of the body of Christ is a long used fear and control tactic used by the GGWO inner circle to attempt to silence its critics and keep the ugly truth about them from getting out?? Well the ugly truth about them is already out and a lot of it is on this board. Trying to guilt trip us into silence will never work.

As far as being rewarded by Christ. I'd rather be rewarded by Christ for exposing a pastor servitude cult that is being passed off as a fundamentalist evangelical ministry that lures in sincere brothers and sisters in Christ and brainwashes them to be pastor serving robots that think its a sin to think for themselves or think anything contrary to what they're told by the pastors to think. I'd rather be rewarded for saving brothers and sisters in Christ from joining this spiritually organization than ending up losing rewards for staying silent and letting those brothers and sisters get lured in and get spiritually mauled like so many of us were. I'd much rather expose the wolves in sheep's clothing and see brothers and sisters in Christ find the truth about GGWO and leave forever themselves. Let the false shepards and wolves in sheep's clothing be found out wherever they may be and be publicly exposed for what they really are!!!

So you want to imply that we're all walking in darkness because we don't want to come back to Greater Grace and blindly believe everything taught there, but would rather expose the ugly truth that GGWO is a "ministry" run by selfish men who don't want to let God run things there?? You imply that you're in the light and we're all in the darkness?? What will you do if you find that its the other way around some day?? What then?? Many of us found the real light of Jesus as we saught Him out when we were still in GGWO. That light led us straight to the nearest exit and out for good. Praise be to God for the freedom in Christ and the abundant life in Christ in the outside world that GGWO avoids, where God's presence can so much more easily be found!!!

To: Sidethorn

I think that 35 years as a part of this faithfaul and loving body is a sufficient amount of time for the Holy Spirit to test and prove to me that GGWO is a ministry raised of God and doing an incredible work all over the world. There are 1000's of believers that I know personally, that heve fruit in their lives and would vehemently disagree with you on all counts. I am holding fast to that which is good.

There are hundreds or even thousands who would strongly disagree with you Servant. Are you going to come here and claim that all of them are liars with just the word of your own personal testimony?? You claim that you've known thousands of people that think GGWO is such a great place like you do that they are all your friends. That sounds very difficult to believe. Or are you trying to tell us that things are nice for you because you just fit in and play the game there? Do you just believe what you're told to believe, see who you're told to see, shun who you're told to shun? Do you believe that your pastor is your pastor for life and tell others the same? As long as you do what the pastor says, things are nice and spiritually good for you and everyone around you is nice and godly. Maybe a lot of them would vehemently disagree with me. But many would agree with me, many more than you would think. Like many on this board, I am holding fast to what is good. Like knowing the truth that God loves all believers and that GGWO is not a good place to be or grow in the Lord and knowing the truth that in order to be free in Christ and enjoy His best, I need to stay clear of GGWO. Very weak argument there Servant, people aren't buying it!!!

There it is. The ministry was "raised by God". How mystical.

Thousands of believers that you know personally that have "fruit" in their lives.

What is it about you and fruit? Guest300 was big on fruit too. I know that Schaller always talks about how successful the "ministry" is because, "Look at our fruit". GG has plenty of fruit from a sick tree.

35 years of being sucked dry of your own independence in Christ is not proof that you can determine who is spiritual or Godly, or lead by the Spirit.

Doing an incredible work all over the world...like what? Planting churches? Reaching the lost only to imprison them in GG doctrine?

You can hold fast to that which you perceive as good. That's fine. Enjoy yourself.
We, on the other hand had to flee the corruption and will defend our motives and reasons.

Personal note here folks:
One of the techniques of psychological coercion is to be first, pointed and harsh, then follow up with pleasant words, to make friends, to gain some level of trust from the victim.
I mention this because of the interesting influx of new posters, i.e., guest300 and a servant.
Just an observation.

Here's something from Schaller's message. I think it's from last year.

"You know a tree by what? It’s fruit. What if a car hits the tree? The tree gets, the bark of it gets ripped off but the tree bears good fruit. You know a tree by how? By it’s bark? Do you know a tree by its bark? What if the tree gets banged up but it bears great fruit. What about that. What about the tree, the root system is a little bit, it’s uh, struggling or diseased a little bit but the tree bears good fruit.
You know a tree by how? By it’s fruit.
Do we have people, 700 missionaries, out in more than 60 countries?
Do we have a potential to not only have 30,000 but 100,000 people in our ministry?
Not only, what is the number, 402 churches, but great numbers of people.
The numbers is not the fruit. The fruit is the quality.
You visit an assembly and it’s not about legalism and sentimentality it’s about salty speech and doctrine and truth and edification and the anointing of God and the vision of Jesus Christ our Savior.
And we love Him because He washed our sin away. Yeah, what it that? It’s good fruit. It’s good fruit, baby! It’s good fruit.

When somebody talks to you, just say that to him, hey hold it time out. (yelling)
…and if you had a problem 20 years ago why did you stay?
And if you had a problem 10 years ago, why didn’t you walk?
Why don’t you right now, even in the midst of trouble, why don’t you walk with God and live in love.
Because love endures love bears all things love believes all things, hopes all things?
Why can’t you live and be right on? Back off baby. It’s good fruit baby, it’s good fruit. That’s the way it is. (standing ovation) Yeah, boy, that’s fun! Wow, look it! Thank you Lord. "

Thanks Epistula. Great commentary.

As for GGWO, so its good fruit because Schaller says its good fruit. So the people should believe its all good fruit because Schaller tells them to. So the people should stay silent about everything going on in GGWO circles just because Schaller says it all good fruit. Then the people should just say "back off, baby" just because Schaller says its all good fruit. Then they should all stand and give that standing ovation. The madness goes on!!!!

Jehovah's Witnesses, it's the fruit
Mormon's, it's the fruit
Sun Yung Moon, it's the fruit baby...

It's always about all those missionaries and all those churches. We just forgot to mention 85% of the affiliates left because they think we're off.

Another day, same old GG crap.

Truth in advertising -- I don't think the number is that high. I don't know for sure. And in fact, even gg couldn't tell you. At the time I was leaving and many churches were disaffiliating, they literally did not know exactly how many churches claimed to be an affiliate.

But you raise a very valid point. If they wish to use their works as proof of their godliness, there are many groups which are far larger and can claim as many or more works.

And Epistula -- you rock!

Fruit?

Reminds me of the Med fly. Fruit infested by the larvae of the Med fly appears to be perfectly fine to the naked eye. The infestation is undetectable until the fruit is cut open and examined. You see, the Med fly causes damage by laying its eggs just beneath the skin of the ripening fruit. The larvae feed upon the pulp of the fruit, sometimes tunneling through it and eventually reducing the whole to a juicy inedible mass.

Sound familiar?

Then of course, there is wax fruit. You know...the fake stuff that isn't even fruit at all.

And how could I forget FRUIT LOOPS???

I remember when Pastor Stevens was really sick and as far as anyone knew, he was dying. This goes back a few years ago. It was real touch and go there for a while. It was scary. One thing is that we didn't seem to have any strong leadership to give direction while Pastor was in the hospital. Things started to fray. Something that we had to consider before that we never considered: the ministry could come to an end or to be so weak or different that it would not be what we all knew and had counted on.

You knew who your true friends were..a few you could really talk to heart to heart. We couldn't imagine life without the ministry. How could we go on? Everything and everyone was wrapped up in the ministry. Then my friend said, "But we'd still have Christ, the bible, and there are other Christians." This was hard to take. How could I be out on my own? Wasn't the ministry all about Christ and the bible? So what was I afraid of? Wasn't Christ my all and in all?

Epistula makes a great point about those who have come here.
I would add that others who have read here are not staying in and it is having an effect that makes the sycophants come to spew their drivel at us.

Servant,
come to the light.

God knows more and more people are leaving. More others are reading here and deciding to never join. Its working. God is setting His people free. Servant's drivel is helping even more to bring to light the manipulation and abuse of people going on in groups like GGWO in the Name of Christ. Servant's efforts are backfiring.

According to the changes in the website of the GGWO Missions Dept between Feb 5 and Oct 22, 2005 you may count losses for GGWO in affiliations per Continent as follows:

North America: 60 %
South (& Central) America: 40 %
Europe: 30 %
Asia: 10 %
Africa: 0 %

Even though these are only estimates* the percentages are much more accurate than the information that Thomas Schaller delivered to the Finnish GGers on July 29, 2005 at the Summer Conference in Finland, "There are some churches that have disaffiliated officially by a letter uh, maybe, I don't know I can think of maybe there's uh 4 that I can think of, that have officially disaffiliated." I do not know if the avarage GGer in Finland has grown any wiser in this subject since then.

* = but based on actual calculations!

"Even though these are only estimates* the percentages are much more accurate than the information that Thomas Schaller delivered to the Finnish GGers on July 29, 2005 at the Summer Conference in Finland."

Of course we know that GGWO is a ministry of "accuracy". :lol:

Ever get the feeling that I like this face?----------> :lol:

The problem arises from the definition of a local church in the GGWO. I do not think anywhere else a pastor and his wife and a goldfish in a glass bowl (not required) is defined as a church. From the website it is impossible to tell from all the addresses or only the names of towns, which ones are actual funtioning churches and which ones are not.

I just realized I can eat an apple and type simultaneously :)

Keep in mind that the many the disaffiliating churches were the larger of the churches including South Berwick, Tacoma, Vienna, etc. When I think in terms of the number of people instead of the number of churches, GG was cut at least in half. Baltimore alone lost around 25%.

Servant,
How can you see evil in here, but not in the GGWO while you say your

? (emphasis mine).

If the

your heart, how can you even come and read what we have written? Is not that forbidden by your pastor for life? (ref. Cockatrice eggs, GG Glossary, p. 29).

You know what? I was not in the GGWO to be contentious or cause division in the local body either. I was there to grow in Christ. It took me 17 years to realize the GGWO system is rotten to the core. To leave the church was not an easy choice, but it was the only choice I had. The other one would have included either lobotomy or checking my brains at the door every time I entered the church.

You have expressed the exact attitude that Guest300 and other GGers or GG sympathizers have expressed before you. You do not accuse. No, you already condemn, because you think you have all the facts straight. It is so sad to see how twisted idea you have of God and his judgment seat. Your God never smiles. I know, because I was there. After I bailed out it took me a couple of years, but now I can see the God that smiles. And I think I know what he will say to me, when I see him in Heaven, "Thanks for coming, Pentti!"

The servant says "My faith does not percieve any of the things that you say you have seen". Not surprising. The servant and his faith only percieves what the servant wants to percieve. How typical of the GGWO mentality. Carl Stevens started a whole ostridge mentality centered around himself and his own twisted teachings. People were trained to percieve and accept only that which agrees with Carl. If anything contrary to what Carl says came along, then the people are supposed to be ostridges that put their heads in the sand and refuse to percieve what they're seeing. In other words, they just presume that information is an "evil report" that is not to be recieved or percieved. So what we have here is an ostridge servant of men that automatically condemns anyone who doesn't agree with Carl and his cronies and just would rather hold their head in the sand than face the truth.