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“For a Church to be Alive we must be Dead” Pastor Tom Powell 12-31-07

This is not a verbatim transcript rather it is an overview of the message.

Opening: Declares the church dead; a white Elephant, lack of motivation lack of faithfulness. Over a course of time people that were faithful are rarely here. This is a cycle. There are seasons. (Shows video) Go to John 12. Our Church is dead. We are not reaching CAP kids. Prayer is attended by precious few. Dorms are not full. Bible College has only a few. People are missing services. People planned their lives around serving Christ but now other things are more important. The world is now more complex. These things just happen. A Challenge. We have to die to many things: Relationships, Marriages are not what we believe, dreams crumble, REPUTATION - after 30 years everything we worked for has been skewed. Did we serve for recognition or did we serve Christ? Did I attend Bible College to see Christ? Did I minister to young people because it was Christ calling? Is my relationship to Christ the most important?

cont'd

In a natural setting everything dies. Spiritually everything dies. We died with Christ so we can live for ever. Col 3:1-3 Everything in life comes through death. John 12:24-27. Jesus says that the only way life can come is to die. No one wants to be planted in the soil. It is dark and lonely. God begins transformation. Gen 1:17. The dark experience. Psalm 18:11 God is hidden in darkness. Know God? Be willing to go into dark places. Experience death. Be willing to leave the natural. John 21 Peter was challenged. “Lord Will I pursue you... Can I go with you?"(John 12:24-27) I believe our church is dead - but I do not believe that is bad. We are not producing fruit. That is good. Every person in this church has to answer “Did God plant me here” If God plants you here this church – will never be fruitful until people are planted Isaiah 63:10 Psalm 1 God plants and nourishes. Faithfulness can not be spoken of until we have commitment.

cont'd

Like the military. I signed up for 4 years and did not get what I wanted. I wanted to get out. 4 years during Viet Nam era. We were lowly freaks and spit on and hated. God brought me to my knees to receive Christ. Those dark places become the most fruitful. Paul instructed Timothy to preach in season and out of season because he knew there would be seasons. There are going to be times. For all of us God is planting. (16:14 mark )

cont'd

Everyone in this room is not intended to be in this church. We have never believed that everyone is meant to be in this church. We have never believed that despite what the critics say. We could probably fill churches with people that have been through these doors. We have probably filled churches. We have never been that church. Truth is we believe God places people in a church. It is the Holy Spirit’s business whether they attend here and no one can dictate that. When we are planted we enter the fruit bearing process. Go to Hosea. Israel was falling away and betrayed God. (17:20 mark)

cont'd

I study the OT prophets and one of the things that is very interesting is God judges the inability to hear with the inability to hear. If you choose not to listen you not be able to listen. You will not understand. Matthew 13. Jesus uses parable. God sent prophets that lost their life and the message was seldom received. (Jonah and Noah.) The inability to hear is a result of our lack of desire to hear. The prophet kept preaching because there is always this hope for the one that will listen.

cont'd

An incredible message of hope. God will come through. Hosea 6:1 God always has in sight his blessing. God does not move and have blessing on the heels of his move. Press on and know the Lord. This is our job. I just want to know him. The white elephant is still here. I just want to know God. Believe God for fruit. It does not matter what has been taken. Trust God for fruit.(21:20 mark) Stop thinking about what was and start thinking about Christ with us. Last year we spoke on Hagai 2 and that kicked off quite a season for us. The temple was incomplete. The size of the temple was small. Was God with us? Will the fruit come?

cont'd

God plants and God gives the increase. Look God plants and God gives the increase. God breaks up the fallow ground. God tears at our hearts. There are seasons. God is digging deep in our lives. No one wants this. There are dark season and no one wants to be a seed but that is how life begins. There is a wealth in darkness. (23:10 mark) Isaiah 45:3. There are riches God wants to give. In dark times he is planting. God blesses anyone that pursues him. (24:10 mark) I do not determine who is and who is not pursuing God. That is not my job. I have never cared about that. I do not decide. My job is to pursue Christ and not to let anything hinder you. Isaiah 55:

cont'd

We have been planted. When we first came here we knocked on doors for a year near UPS. We thought we had it all. People gave us tracts instead. I was discouraged. We came here with no jobs. (25:40 mark) Another pastor came from Liberty University but he had $40,000 in the bank. We were thrilled to be sent. We watched messages from the school we left in Lenox. We were faithful to knock every Saturday. Mitch knocked on doors at UPS and 20 football players got saved and the rest was history. An amazing revival.

cont'd

Dr. Lewis came and told me to stay instead of quitting. Bus ministry was started with a ratty old car. Over 10 people living in one house with one bathroom. We rented a church and were asked to leave because we had too many kids. God was doing a deep work during the dark times. Trials and Problems are God doing deep work. Are you committed to the bad marriage and true to Christ? I know who is committed to children in this church because they have remained true to children committed regardless of what has happened. The truth is you find out who is planted. Isaiah 55:1-

cont'd

Do not waste your life pursuing things that are not fulfilling. Come and listen and receive mercy. God wants us to acknowledge when we are going the wrong way. (31:00 mark) Admit it and turn back to God. Repentance is listening to God. God is always seeking to water planted seeds. If you believe God for your life and it has not come true, that is more reason to believe God. Abraham and his son ( 13 years), Joseph in prison ( 20 years) , David running from Saul, ( 7 years) . Look! God is always planting and digging deep in our hearts. Our job is to be a seed . 1Cor 3:8. Think about this.

cont'd

This is a memorial service for our dead church. Acknowledge death and spring forth new life. This Church loves the lost. This Church will disciple whether it is 1 or 100. This church will win the lost in the community and find the best way. We should be involved in missions. Don’t count that seed out. God is doing a great work in people. (35:20 mark) The seed will produce much. Those people will have great impact and I will not say who is and who is not. That does not mean anything to me.

cont'd

Come forward. We have a casket big enough for me. That is what some people want to see happen. Pass out flowers so we can acknowledge the death, burial, and resurrection of Living Grace Church. Come forward and reflect. (35:30 mark) If God gave you a vision in your heart and you think that vision is dead, it is a good thing to die to something. Symbolically bring your flower up.

cont'd

We are officially a dead church. There is something very special. Cap is dead, youth ministry is dead, Bible college is dead. All of our ministries are dead. Our desire to worship is dead. Everything is dead. (Piano music) Perhaps your marriage is dead. I have never preached a message where everything is dead. I have a bunch of flowers because I have to be really dead. Thank you for participating in this vibrant example. I hope you notice when you put your flowers in there, that it is a mirror. For the church to live we are supposed to be dead. This is our celebration. This is our time! There is no living church without dead people. Die unto self and live unto Christ. We never make big waves but our wave faith and service is unto Christ. What ever he wants to happen! No one or no thing can stop us. Stand and worship God! If God is for us who can be against us! There is some really good food. Have fun and worship God. There is a door offering for Child care.

(the end?)

Tom, Show me the verses that say that anyone should be planted in anything other than Christ.
Show me the verses where a local church supplants Christ as the place where one should be planted.
Show me the verses that tell us that the local church is the emphasis for the believer instead of the Body of Christ.

The local church is a good thing that has been perverted by GGWO,LGM.

Could you be specific as to who wants you in a casket.

Could you show me the verses that say that the Holy Spirit places people/knits people into a local church? Seems to me that He places/knits people into the Body of Christ alone.

No one has said that you think that everyone should be in your church. The issue is how GGWO/LGM views those that don't attend your church.
HINT: compromisers.

You watched classes from Lennox, but "you never taught that here"? Very interesting!

You are correct in one aspect, your church is dead, and has been for a long, long, long time. The real question is, WHY IS IT DEAD?

I would submit to you that it is dead because of:
pride
arrogance
elitism
manipulation
missing the point of what church is about
twisting the word of God
lying
deceiving
not caring about people
determining what spirituality is for people through your messages
hindering of the Holy Spirit in peoples lives by over emphisizing your pulpits authority over their own relationship with God.
ETC.
I predicted that this years message would carry the same tone as last years, and that many more people would leave because of it. I don't think I will be dissappointed.

Looks like LGM is dead since its been selling people the teachings of Carl Stevens instead of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Its been a place to serve men more than Christ. Its been a place run by men instead of Christ. No wonder its dead!!!!

This is a classic example of how Tom chooses to spin & twist the REAL issues & attempt to turn them into a personal vendetta against him.

Spin twist people's minds Tom to make them think--oh our poor dear pastor is being attacked by the wicked group that left LGM.

Will you choose in 2008 to continue to stand behind a man's system all for the sake of good Tom? After all you claim you are spreading the gospel right? So ignore the cries from the families that have left, isgnore the cries from the Holy Spirit of how far away from Christ's character LGM has fallen into. Just keep stubbornly pressing on in your good Tom.

Not very original sermon. That same sermon idea with the casket was used in The Bible Speaks years ago.

Interesting that this statement jumped out at several of us.

I'm sure there's some technical debating term for this kind of statement. i.e.: you accuse your opponent of saying something they never said. Don't offer specifics of dates, times, names, etc. Merely opine with sufficient indignation or accusation in your voice, as if you're speaking the truth.

If it works, you put those you're accusing on the defensive as they try to defend themselves concerning things they never even said!

So as has been asked -- who are these people? When did they say this? Or is it foolish and petty to believe that words have meaning?

To me this sermon is straight out of the GGWO "playbook". It's sad that such rhetorical manipulation has to be used. This stuff is NOT healthy for anyone's soul. It's no wonder people with significant emotional/mental problems land in BS/GGWO/LGM churches, stay for years, and remain in the same cycle. Make it a great 2008 - exit the sect and for those of us who already have, let's keep working on the sh*t that caused us to wind up there in the first place!

Years ago, I heard how Scott Robinson preached a message somewhere. He had a casket brought in the church. He gave a funeral message about how sad it was to see this person dead, etc. Then he asked everyone to come forward and see who it was. Yes, there was a mirror in the casket.

That TP used this idea is not the issue. The significant thing here is that he thinks the church is dead. He was using the typical dramatic techniques of TBS. Tom, the church is NOT dead. It just doesn't have what you think it should have. People are losing their strength for all the works programs. How dare you give a message to those people who come to church for hope? Please don't project your own inner and personal struggles on your congregation. It is time to seek a pastor's pastor. Yes, you lost CHS, so find a true mentor now. You can't do this on your own. Your message was a cry for help. Let the church go. It belongs to Christ, not to you. It's time to go; that's what you are sensing. Trust God for new beginnings for you and your wife and your family. Put this burden down. It's not yours anymore. Be free again in Christ. It's ok. His arms are open for you--just let go.

Do you remember the hype leading up to the New Years eve service every year?
"The biggest and most important message of the year. The message when God is to reveal the direction for the church thru his man".
The message never lived up to the hype because it was always the same old message about what the church should be doing and will be doing. Same ole, same ole.
Last years NY's eve message, however, was a very important message. It was the message that put together the pieces that I needed to in order for my eyes to open. It kick started my mind in to action. I instantly began to understand that GGWO/LGM was not concerned about glorifying Jesus and/or caring about people, but instead was concerned about what 'they' accomplish and who they can get to do it.
The one thing missing in NY's eve message was Jesus. This is the one thing that has always been missing in these important messages, and this is why people will continue to leave. People want Jesus, not a pity party that used to manipulate people into hanging around.

Was this message intrinsic evil heresy? no

Was it spiritual food? no

Was it edifying? not really


Was it good shepherding of the flock? no

Was it silly? yes

I don't understand. Was the main point of this sermon to tell those who were faithful enough to come out that the church is dead? Not in some hyper spiritual "we're dead in Christ" meaning, but dead as in lifeless and not doing anything?

I really think his point was a classic Tom Powell feel sorry for ME message. We are all in this together BS. Don't abandon ship, because then you weren't faithful enough to allow God to move. God needs us planted so he can move twist. So in other words if you leave, then it is your fault if this church fails.

He is realizing that people are not blind & they would have to be to not see the commotion & problems at LGM. His intent probably was to mix Bible verses together to make people think they are still in the will of God even when things are dead.

He tried to mix guilt trips in his message, like I remember when people used to be excited to come to every service & now they only come once a month. In other words, it's your fault God is not working.

People aren't praying--it's your fault

Cap is smaller--it's your fault for not continuing to serve there.

Bible college classes have shrunk--it's your fault for not wanting more of the word.

Services have less attendance--it's your fault for not coming to everything.

Not that God may be telling you something is wrong with the church you are in, but your faith is the problem.

That is exactly the point of Powell,

You have all failed me. The church is dead because you have not done what god has called you to do. I am the prophet who preaches and it is not my fault if you dont listen. I am faithful.

There is no humility in this message. There is no "breath of fresh air" as Guest911 has mistakenly seen. Powell sees no problem other than the fact that "people" have lost their fervor and vision to be part of Gods plan. He is innocent. He is faithful. The members and those who have left are the ones who are guilty.

If you do not believe my assessment simply go up to him and ask why the church is dead. He will first start with some sort of false humility by saying something like this, " of course I am the first to blame because I was not careful when I was helping to form the IAGM but the fact is that it was a much needed thing bec... blah blah blah blah blah blah. Same as stevens and all the others. No personal responsibility whatsoever. Go ahead ask him! Then he will spend the next 10 minutes explaining to you why those who have left have failed God (and him) and those who remain have not been spiritually discerning etc... etc.. They are the problem. When you listen be sure to let him talk first. Dont put the answers in his mouth. Just ask him and listen to the answers. There will be no humility nor responsibility for the "dead state of the church" Oh and if he says I am as guilty as everyone then be sure to listen to the whole answer afterwards because he will demonstrate in his words following why he is "not as guilty as all the others" even though he said that.

Its the same thing all the time. TBS/GGWO teaches to never truly take responsibility. NEVER.
Powell follows this message precisely.

I was actually being a bit sarcastic when I said that. I think the whole message was about feeling bad. Bad for letting things slip. Not by him though. He doesn't sound like he takes responsibility for anything. Also I have not been in service as of lately. I have not heard from one person yet. Not as to why I haven't been there. I did get a call telling me there was no service tonight because of the New Years Eve service. The person didn't ask where I have been though.

Sounds so much like things were at GGWO. The pastors would always blame the people there if things went wrong with the church. It was always someone else's fault, never the pastors', never!! The pastors thought they were so much more enlightened than the people so how could they ever be wrong?? That's the GGWO mentality. Coerce the people to do all the real work while the pastors rule over them. Then blame the people when things don't turn out like those pastors want. Use these guilt trips to manipulate the people to work harder and longer serving the pastors while duping them to think that is actually serving God. This basically comes down to man service, not God service. I think I'd much rather serve the loving and caring Christ far away from these pastors!!

In honor of the depressing new years eve message that probably sucked the last existing breath of life out of LGM, i've decided that TP should receive an honorary doctorate. Ladies and gentlemen please give round of applause for Dr. Death.

Dr. Death? That is not necessary. The solution is quite simple.

I am not dead, I'm alive and kick'in. I want you dead so that you will not question me,just do as I say damn it!!!

I need someone to sell their house and give the church(corporation that has no members nor any leg to stand on) all the profits from the sale. This is what the corporation needs PROFITS not prophets. No requests for allocations or accountability (accountability is not in my bible) just give me the money,damn it!!!

Jesus did visit our corporation once but He left after hearing an "evil report" and after checking the facts. He wasn't dead anyway.

The church needs donors $$$$$$$$$$ so what if our effectivness is not measurable its all dead money anyway.

"Isn't this fun?????" Ask me if this is fun? and why.

Where has all the people gone????? We'll have to reschedule that for another meeting with the board.

Where has all the money gone???? None of your business. "Isn't this fun?"

"You'll never......" live in MY church(corporation) if you don't die willingly my messages will bore you to death.

"You'll never..........."

"I'll be the first to admit I'm an Idiot"

"These are great times" 56K in Gem Heights, Mexican Vacation,Its everybody else's fault. WOW!!!

I have to go to the gym now, where is the petty cash for lunch?

Sidethorn,
You took the words right out of my mouth. It was (and probably still is) EXACTLY like this in Finland, too. Every time something in the church did not fulfill the expectations of the pastor the blame is on the people.

Messsage to P.Powell

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel?or (LGM) Ezekiel 18:31

I listened to the New Year's Eve message from TP to his congregation. I'm so confused! Could someone explain to me the cycle of dying. I can't find the verses that say a church is supposed to die and its ministries are supposed to keep dying. Do we die over and over as we cyle through dying? Is this the same as reincarnation? WOW! If I die again, I wonder what I'll come back as! Perhaps I can come back as a pastor so I can get wealthy from offerings and lord over a congregation that keeps dying. Maybe when the people die they will leave all their money to me. Boy, those will be good times! Send me flowers now--don't wait for my casket.
PS If I can't come back as a pastor, perhaps I'll be a cash cow!

I believe that the GGWO/LGM idea of dying to one's self means that you die to anything that would conflict with the 'vision' handed down to 'the church' thru the pastor. These conflicts could include anything that would lead a person to be disenchanted with 'the church'. This is a sick and very twisted interpretation of the scriptures, that encourages manipulation, bondage, and the death that TP's church is experiencing. This is not unlike the GGWO/LGM interpretation of the Body of Christ, which interpeted scripturally is a good thing, but in GGWO/LGM leads to bondage, works, legalism, among other problems.

In my understanding of the scriptures, dying to one's self is always in relation to one's relationship to Jesus, not a particular church. Dying to self is a good thing if it is unto Jesus thru the HS, but not to an organization. These two doctrines as taught in GGWO/LGM are, in my opinion, at the very heart of all the problems in that ministry. They are also some of the primary reasons that these churches do not attract people, and why it takes a manipulative preaching style to keep the ones that do stick around for a while.

When the teaching on the local church elevates it to the place where ones relationship to Christ is evaluated by ones faithfulness to a church, then the result will be the problems that GGWO/LGM are facing now, and have been since it's inception.

http://pursuing-faith.blogspot.com/2007/10...-like-what.html

Its all about the pastors in these groups like GGWO/LGM. Everything revolves around these pastors instead of Jesus Christ. They really think they have the Bible figured out like nobody else so who is anyone else to question them. They think they know so much that they can run the church and the peoples' lives their own way. No need for people to seek God on their own and think for themselves. Just let the people die to themselves for the service to these pastors and their churches. Let the people stop thinking and using common sense, but blindly trust in and submit to the pastor. Tell the people this is part of dying to self. Also let the people die not only to themselves, but also their friends, their loved ones, and their families for the service to the pastors. Then mislead the people think this is being truly spiritual and sold out to Christ to serve Him fully. When the pastors don't get everything they expect and want, then blame the people for it and decieve them into thinking they failed to serve God properly here. Use guilt trips and peoples' love for Christ against them to control them and manipulate them to serve the wants of the pastors. Afterall the pastors are there to be served. Serving the pastors is serving God. Such is the GGWO mentality and other groups that support its legacy. Sounds more like they're pastor servitude cults than churches!!

So was the NY sermon complimenting those attending for doing such a good job of being dead, in the "mystical, spiritual" sense? Or condemning them for being dead, ineffective and useless?

Or maybe sending the message that those who remain should consider those who have left dead? Like - this is a closed chapter, let's move on. You know...the pruning thing...

Maybe sending a message like Schaller did? He recently preached a sermon in which he first spoke about people with whom he was "serving God faithfully through the years together." But many then "went in different directions." Of those who remained, he said, "in a mystical way... were we able to stay together on the right foundation."

A minute later, instructing the congregation as to how to think about those who left, he said, "The Lord said to Ezekiel, Tomorrow, your wife will die, and do not mourn for her. Then the Scripture said, and the next day his wife died, and he did not mourn for her.... And God is not weeping about it. He is detached. This detachment is an amazing work of grace by the Holy Spirit."

I remember the bs convention in Great Barrington, MA in 1978. Stevens closed the week with a sermon about "your seat will be empty and you will be missed." All about how much those attending would be missed when they left to go back home, back to the mission field, wherever.

Apparently, if you're a "faithful friend of this ministry" and you're not around, you're missed. And if you die, we'll eulogize you on the website or maybe name a scholarship fund in your memory.

But if you wake up, smell the freedom and leave -- you're dead to us, we will not mourn, God won't weep because he's detached.

Great grace and unconditional love being revealed, eh?

I did not (and will not) listen to TP's NY sermon. If you did -- what kind of "dead church" was he talking about?

---

ps:
I am not begrudging the actions honoring the memory of their friends who died. I mention them as examples of the stark contrast with the treatment of those who are out of favor.

John and Anon,
In a twisted way, it could be a little of all three meanings. I also think it could be that he was saying that God has allowed them to be brought to this low place by the 'viscious attacks of the evil desenters' so that He can bring them back to the glorious times of the 'early days'.

The problem with this is that the glorious days of old were only in the minds of those in the ministry. . Yes they've done alot and been very busy, but like me, many, many were dead men walking to the marching orders of a man, not the Spirit of God. This ministry has never been an attractive ministry to the average Christian who is just looking to worship and serve Christ, because Christ was made out to be a task master. Also the glory of Christ was stolen in order to exalt a ministry and a man. The only GGWO churches that ever had any numbers were the ones with very dynamic and persuasive pastors who could sell this crap to the multitudes and convince people to give their lives up for a church and glorify a man. I know that some will comment that numbers don't matter, and this is true on some levels, but i'd argue that numbers can be an indication of the life of Christ in any given church. People tend to flock to places where Christ is being lifted up and life is experienced.
Yes, many souls were saved by the grace of God thru this ministry, like many, many ministries around the world, but is that 'the' indication of the blessing of God, or is it just the mercy of God for the lost? I do believe that God is more interested in the lives and growth of His people than He is concerned about how many souls someone has led to Christ. When a person is full of the life of Christ, people see that and are touched by it. So shouldn't the primary goal be to reveal Christ, not just a program?