Greetings all. I just posted the December 2nd, second morning service in the commentary area. I hardly actually comment, I barely have the stomach to listen to his dribble.

Here's an excerpt:

Before the benediction Schaller revisits the message he just gave and gives an exhortation. He says, “Don’t worry about it, it won’t hurt, put your helmet on get all ready. Umm, I am loved so much by so many people and I am so appreciative of it all, very much. But, there are some, not me, I’m the, but there are some, that it seems they are, they are in la-la land and not drawing near. Like, this is the life where, where you are, there’s no way that you can take me away from what I have that is here, this way in the Lord. … what do I have I got a boat, a fish a memory. But, I got, I have something and you know, if you knew our heart, if you knew the heart of the body. But Peter, Peter didn’t know it, he didn’t know all the crazy things that can happen in the heart, regarding life….”

“Okay, instead of being critical of your pastor, love him.” Quotes JFK’s line “ask what you can do for your country” then adds, “well, over here we’re not thinking about what is missing. We’re thinking of what is present.

One minute left, ok here goes, when you walk into a room, starbucks café or wherever you go, you can see what is missing. When you go into work in the morning, you can see what is missing. When you get in your car in the morning, you can see what is missing. ...OR you can say ‘God is present’ …That’s the kind of body member that you want to be, cuz you will bring it. And if you learn it here, in your faith and in your heart, you will bring it to the football team. You will bring it to the third grade. Yeah, you’ll bring it to your elderly parents. You’ll bring it into your enemy’s life. You say, ‘God is here, God is here and I love you.’

There are too many people that live over there without God’s provision because they never mature and become who they should be. They are more critical than they are edifying, they are more saying what is missing instead of what is present. God is present. Ok. Benediction.


Please post your comments

Sounds like the same old Greater Grace I was at years and years ago when the masses were still worshipping Carl at the pulpit. Notice how love for the pastor is still equated with blind submission and servitude to him without ever disagreeing with him no matter how unscriptural he may get. Its the same old teaching I've heard there long ago. If any place is a la-la land, its Greater Grace. The people worship and serve men thinking that is serving God. How contrary to life in most of the rest of the body of Christ!!

Then when it comes to God's presence, that's really missing at GGWO! The in-crowd of pastors there hardly let God into the place because they would rather run things their own way and take the glory for themselves.

He spent too long in communist countries where they cut people out of pictures who are no longer with the party. He is telling people not to miss the ones who have left, and just say, "God is present." If they can listen to that stuff and still want to go to that church, then they deserve what they get.

There are so many things missing in that church that the only way that he can cover for it is to say, "Let's not talk about it." I mean, then, they'd have to admit his brain is missing. He can't even stay coherent and make one sentence go with another. He is "loved by so many people" that he no longer thinks about what he is saying. He just says whatever floats in his mind. And he gets away with it because those people aren't listening. They have lost the capacity to think a long time ago, and anyone that would challenge them has left or is living a double life. Some of you still go because the only life you've ever known, the only friends you've ever known are in GGWO. But be honest, you are no longer trusting God.

Just more of the same damage control that is the root of GGWO's doctrinal error which they refuse to correct let alone acknowledge.

Tom Schaller,
God is not in the "they went out from us because they where not of us" lie that you express almost daily.
God is in the "open eyes do not place your light under a bushel awareness/come and let us reason together" that you avoid like the plague.

We deal with our past through the cross not avoid it because it's hard to face the fact that sin still rears it's ugly head and you and company are not willing to deal with issues that need to be dealt with in order to have healing in the body.

If any one is infected with evil it is those who refuse to deal with problems and sin by vilifying those who are led by the Holy Spirit to enlighten the body and make corrections and apologies for their wrong doing.
Something that is beneath you but not beneath true humility.

You talk about the body of Christ as if you actually discern it when your "damage control" statements and "don't talk rule" reveal you lack for understanding.

You sir are dangerous to the well being of the Spiritual health of Christ's body.

As your beloved pastor once said "get some GUTZ" and tell the truth.

quoted for truth

It is much more difficult to deal with criticism when it comes in a flood instead of from just one person. Probably everyone in a seat on Sunday mornings in Baltimore is well aquainted with at least one person who left. That person might be their home town pastor.

The idea that when you go to Starbucks you ignore some of the problems because you like the coffee is ludicrous. (Yes Tom, that's what you were trying to say um, ugh, um...) Were talking about the Bible here and it speaks pretty clearly about liars, hypocrites, and false shepherds. Christians are required to tell the truth and follow God and not men. The doctrine is wrong, the methods are wrong, the personal lives of the leadership are wrong, and it's all covered up with lies. Time to get your coffee somewhere else...

If I walk into Starbucks and the coffee machine is missing, or the chairs are missing, or the counter help is gone, or the coffee smells funny...yes...I'm outta there!

I read the 1st half of the message by TS and I tried, I really tried to follow his logic, but found it impossible. It was like listening the character Rowley Birkin Q.C. from the Fast Show (by BBC) except that Mr. Birkin's logic is easier to follow.

Sibiricus

Munson has no fruit. He talks from a wicked heart with a fiery tongue. He can not mature or grow because his heart is not right. This is not said to edify. Munson has no fruit, no fruit, no fruit! Did you hear that? NO FRUIT! He can not be trusted and does not bear any godly fruit. He is a professing christian that has no fruit. You will know them by their fruit. Don't you people get it? BY THEIR FRUIT!

I guess if he just posted anonymously like you and me, you would have to comment on something specific that he said rather than attack him.

Reader, thanks from trying to translate schallerese.

Just discern some of the posting and it's not difficult to know where some are coming from. To keep from biting and devouring one another it would be best to keep the mouth shut and speak few words. It is easy to be a fool. A fool lacks wisdom and understanding.

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

Proverbs 10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom. The word 'sport' refers to a hollow mocking or laughter, without substance.

Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

The Bible Speaks

Try something even more basic - READ some of the posts. READ some of the information at www.carlstevens.org

That's what the communists wanted, too. Control. Supression of the truth.

And being an ostrich is so much easier than even that.

Sibiricus,

I believe this one is more like Schaller's message:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh8CQRerBVA&feature=related

Early Sunday service
January 13, 2008
Schaller

(very few people there)

We are in Romans chapter 11 in our sequence through the book of Romans. Has anybody here been a diligent student and been reading the book of Romans? Is there one? Isn’t that amazing? Show you the grace, the nature, the grace of God? Huh? This is a grace, uh, ministry. No, I, I, I uh, I’m joking, little bit, but I am curious. It’s fine. The reason why you’re not reading it is because you hear it in here! That’s not a good excuse. It’s not good. So I encourage you to read.

Romans is of such weighty content and I know that what is needing, needed here often is preaching just to get your life straightened out by God’s grace and encouraged in faith, so, teaching is really what this chapter is requiring, that we go through it bit by bit but we hope that in there we hope that there will be a spattering of preaching. Amen? How many need some good old fashioned preaching? Well then, come out tonight. We need it, yes we do.

"Posted on Dec 7 2007, 03:26 PM by Guest
Munson has no fruit. He talks from a wicked heart with a fiery tongue. He can not mature or grow because his heart is not right. This is not said to edify. Munson has no fruit, no fruit, no fruit! Did you hear that? NO FRUIT! He can not be trusted and does not bear any godly fruit. He is a professing christian that has no fruit. You will know them by their fruit. Don't you people get it? BY THEIR FRUIT!"
----
I have some bananas and guava with a few apples and some strawberries.

Seeing as you "guest" have no idea what my life in Christ is actually like it is reasonable to assume that you hate truth and love to attack the one who speaks it when it is proper to openly reveal an error that leadership wants to hide because of ulterior motives ,pride,arrogance and just plain dishonesty.

I will not be impressed with the out of context scripture quoting that is misused to hush the truth about the matter of erroneous control doctrines and abuses
by those who should be an example of the Love of Christ instead of the love of "SELF."
You may want to attempt to dig your head out of your backside and look at what the Word of God "actually says" instead of using it like a certain manipulative GGWO usurping pastor does.(TS)

You have no excuse for assenting to this type of manipulation because the truth is supposed to set people free to their walk with Christ not enslave them to some man's will which is exactly what GGWO teaching does.

You choose to be a lackey and I don't because I don't need a man to stand between me and the Lord using scripture to decieve me into thinking He's more than just a man.
There is one mediator and His name is Christ.
Deal with it child.

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

From KJV Philipians 1:

15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.




One of the points Paul is making here is the the Gospel is powerful regardless of the motivations of those who preach it.

Regarding ggwo, we know many people who upon joining the ministry were delivered from many terrible circumstances in their lives including drug abuse, immorality, crime, loneliness, insecurity, and yes even marriages were healed. This is all good fruit to be sure, but the credit does NOT go to the ministry, it belongs to God and the power of the Gospel. Yes we should be thankful for saved souls, healing and deliverance, but no local church deserves the credit for such things. No church or ministry deserves our unconditional loyalty because good things have happened there. No church or pastor deserves to be placed above accountability because good things have happened in their church.

We who rightly examine and expose ggwo and chs and point to the ungodly corruption which has taken place do not have to pretend that there could not have been any good there. We can rejoice in the good while continuing to expose the evil. We can continue to love and pray for those who are doing wonderful godly work for the furtherance of the Gospel while continuing to expose the evil lying leaders who continue to slander and lie about those who have left the church for good reason.

Shame on you who still attend ggwo who continue to make excuses for chs and his legacy while covering for his secret life because souls were saved. It is one thing to lie and deceive when smuggling Bibles to closed countries, but lying to protect the false reputation of a Christian leader is just plain evil.

I can imagine few statements more controlling, more manipulative, more cultic than that. Especially when added to the many thousands of similar seemingly innocuous, yet HIGHLY manipulative and controlling statements gg preachers spew on a daily basis....

Let's break it down; what did he really say in that sentence?

"Your life is a terrible mess. It's a wreck. A shambles. You need to be straightened out. And I'm just the guy to do it! It really doesn't matter whether you've been reading Romans or not. I read it, and I will tell you what it MEANS. I will interpret it for you. I will tell you the truths you'd never reach on your own. You need me to tell you what to think, how to act, what to be and how to live.

Problems on your job? I'll straighten you out. Difficulties with the family? I will channel the creator of the universe, and deliver to you his prescription for divine healing."

You know how to speak gg-ese, tell me -- am I over interpreting? I'm merely interpreting that statement in light of everything else they teach.

Responding to a different post, Dave Munson said, "I don't need a man to stand between me and the Lord using scripture to decieve me into thinking He's more than just a man." Isn't that EXACTLY what they teach you're supposed to do, in order to be a faithful, covered, submitted member of a local "body"?

Example/proof? Here's some quotes from Hodeoun's commentaries on the gh broadcasts just from the past few days...

• Carl: "After I teach you – this is the third message on this – why do you act like you haven't heard it before?"
• John Love: Attacks on the family are supernatural. Take advantage of what the local church provides for young people. He specifies outreach and Bible studies and family prayer.
  Family prayer is not a provision of the local church, bonehead.
• Scibelli condemns not making a kid go to church when he doesn't want to as sentimentality.
• Carl states the first thing a believer will be judged for is what he heard from the pulpit.

Commentary: Having translated the word correctly, Carl Stevens then attached this baggage to it. This is a classic bait & switch. The Hebrew has been handled correctly, but now the concept gets linked to things that Carl pulls in out of thin air. There is a passing nod to deliverance from the Tribulation – a nod to the dispensational theology in TBS/GG’s doctrinal statement. But then comes deliverance from ecclesiastical Christianity. It certainly sounds to me that this separates TBS from the rest of the Church. And yes, there is deliverance from the flesh, from disease, from sorrow – but in the day of the Lord – not at the time of what God was doing through TBS. See how true teachings and false distinction of TBS as different than the rest of the Church are woven together? And if you attack Carl’s interpretation, then it will be claimed that you are attacking the true doctrines that are involved.

Corporate Pentecost, Commentary by Hodeuon

This is Carl's way of controlling people. He twists the Scriptures with his own interpretation in his clever way of making anyone disagreeing with him look as if they're disagreeing with Scripture itself. Obviously Carl had lots of time to design an entire twisted theology centered around himself as some great apostolic intermediary between the people and Christ. He presented himself as better than other preachers whom he blasted as not having or preaching the truth of Scripture like he did. Then he would tell the people that thinking independantly or reading Scripture or seeking God independantly of himself or another pastor loyal to himself would lead the people into deception. The only way to avoid deception was to stay under the supervision or covering of the GGWO pastor or Carl himself. Actually believing Carl and his pastors was a sure way to end up in heavy deception!!! Then with all the twisted delegated authority of the pastor teaching, people were subtely coerced not only to depend on the GGWO pastors, but blindly obey them as well. The peoples' love for God was used against them to control them for the selfish interests of the GGWO pastors. What we ended up with, was a pastor servitude cult!!

Excellent post, John. Thanks for the list. I just wanted to add a few notes:

• Familiarity: There is a discrepancy beween Carl's statement above and what we used to hear from the pulpit about familiarity. Were not we suppose to act as we know nothing, when we listen to the preaching I Cor 8:2?
• Family prayer. GG Glossary: Family of God: ... See the Body of Christ. Maybe JL should have elaborated his terminology some more, because some listeners may not be that good in GGisms. I used to work in a very large global corporation where the CEO wanted us to call our office building as home and our co-workers as family. Now that was sick, but so is GGWO when they want their people to sacrifice their true family life in order to spend all their time with the "Body". Now there is a true family prayer and most of the listeners must have heard it just like you did, JC.
• Sentimentality. I do not know a church more sentimental than GGWO. The conferences that I attended used to be flooded with remembering the old times, when the founding fathers of the GGWO and missionaries in the 1970s did this and that. Now that is sentimentality. Yet GGWO only judges everything that keeps you away from the services as sentimental.
• According to GGWO you will be judged for also what you did not hear from the pulpit, if you skipped a church service due to a non bona fide reason. This applies to the defectors, too.

Guest,
I hope that you continue to read here because some day you might actually come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

A very accurate description of what the leadership of GG has been up to.
Maybe some day they will fess up and obtain true repentance instead of blaming others for exposing their deeds like the scriptures tell us to do.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Matthew 18:17 "" And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.""

They are now as heathens to those who understand the truth and obey it.

God's word not mine.

Let these charlatans continue to be exposed publicly for the protection of others so they don't get taken advantage of like so many of us did!!

I'm very curious what 'fruit' you are talking about. I hear so many talk about fruit. I'm not sure if the poster is following Munson around to examine his life, or if he/she is just assuming that Munson cannot be fruitful apart from GGWO. I believe that this website reveals the fruit of GGWO. The shattered lives, the confusion, the hurt, the pain, etc. Is it not possible that the HS is working in this website to help those that have been hurt by GGWO? Is it not possible that you don't have a clue what real fruit is? I think it would be more pertinent to examine the fruit of the leadership of GG churches. Lying, slandering, misappropriation of funds, complete disregard for people, elitism, arrogance, and unrepentant spirit, etc. This is the fruit that God is interested in dealing with. Clean out your own house before you try to clean ours. B)

To say that Dave Munson has no real fruit is incredibly presumptious and ridiculous. His posts have contained much more truth and Christlike character than the vain babblings and actions of Carl Stevens's inner circle or those who have been posting on DiscussGGWO and Factnet to defend them. Dave has shown a genuine concern for the wounded and vulnerable that have been run over by the GGWO cult machine and has said many things that needed to be said. Jesus Himself publicly exposed the false teachers of His day like the Pharisees and Dave's been doing the same thing here just like many posters have. Part of true Christian fruit is defending the vulnerable from the wolves in sheep's clothing like Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller, etc that would attempt to take advantage of them. That includes publicly exposing these wolves as the monsters they really are!! Whoever wrote this post condemning Dave Munson needs to do a really big reality check and take a real hard look at their own fruit or lack thereof!!!

Gee. I posted to a wrong thread. Sorry.

Didn't Schaller and Schibelli teach on Romans 12:1 and 2 for a whole semester in an ABD class a few years ago?

This guy needs new material. Maybe we should send him some.

Balaams Ass,

Don't you know anything the scriptures teach concerning fruit! Are you so ignorant that you can't discern what the fruit of God is that you have been ordained to bear much of. Have you not read John 15? Are you so small in your capacity to understand the things of God that you side with those that have no fruit in Jude 12.

Jude 8: Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 10-13: But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

These are the ones that we are told to have no fellowship with, the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them in Eph 5:11.

Can you read those scriptures in the Spirit or in the flesh as a natural brute beast? You better sober up in your mind and approach this with a pure heart before God less you be overtaken by the same wicked heart of unbelief. God is not pleased with any of this corrupt communication.

Read II Peter 1:1-11

Let David Munson, who says that he is a wise man and endued with knowledge (gift of prophesy) among you, show out of a good conversation his works (fruit) with meekness of wisdom James 3:13. The word of God is edifying when we recieve it in the spirit of meekness and humility before God. Otherwise is will cut asunder the joints and marrow and discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. David Munson should be face down on the ground thanking God, with all Spirit filled believers, that he has been given mercy from God to even take his next breath less his life be as a vapour and dissappear.

Guest of 10:42,

That's a pretty arrogant post you just put up. You basically told a couple guys they better get right with God or God is going to get them. Yeah, I know you didn't say it quite like that. You just piously quoted the verses you wanted in order to imply that, didn't worry about the context, and adjusted your halo while walking away. And you can tell yourself and us that you didn't say it, the Bible did.

Isn't Jude talking about false teachers? Balaam wanted money more than he wanted to speak the truth. Then he told the king who hired him to use sex to entrap Israel. Korah didn't want to be under the authority of Moses. Where is bitterness in this passage? Does it not rather apply to people like Carl Stevens, who wanted money (In re The Bible Speaks, 73 B.R. 848; 1987; 15 Bankr. Ct. Dec. 1235) and sex (http://www.carlstevens.org/subpage17.html) and said when he rebelled against the deacon's board discipline in Wiscasset in 1972 that he'd never be under the authority of a man again?

Hodeuon

Hodeoun,

You who claim to have all this knowledge and insight. Take your knowledge and go knock on some doors and talk to people in the highways and byways and let's see if God is with you. Go out and love people and lay your life down. Let's see if God will give you fruit that remains. Come on, prove yourself. Make your calling and election sure. You have no fear of opening your mouth, back it up. Let's see if you are a real Spirit filled christian or not. If you want to be a disciple of Christ, take up your cross and hate your own life. That's what we are called to do as a disciple. Do you have what it takes; faith, love, grace? Or, do you want to spend the rest of your life refereeing from the sidelines. Show me your fruit!

Yes Hodeuon. As the grand poo-bah taught, you must earn and prove your salvation, earn and prove your spirituality by knocking on doors. It matters not what else someone does in their life. If they don't knock on doors, they're backslidden heathen!

B)

hmmmm.... I missed that post where Hodeuon was claiming such things. Where was it again?

"Let David Munson, who says that he is a wise man and endued with knowledge (gift of prophesy) among you, show out of a good conversation his works (fruit) with meekness of wisdom James 3:13. The word of God is edifying when we recieve it in the spirit of meekness and humility before God. Otherwise is will cut asunder the joints and marrow and discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. David Munson should be face down on the ground thanking God, with all Spirit filled believers, that he has been given mercy from God to even take his next breath less his life be as a vapour and dissappear."
---
Proper application would be nice if you knew anything about it
but you do not.

The Word of God is edifying and is also a "Sharp Two edged Sword" as well.

Chew on this for a bit because it applies directly to the "unrepentant" adulterer and abusers of the flock who you think should get a free pass for doing such things.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, ""tell it unto the church"": but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

What makes you think that the church should not hear the truth when scripture says otherwise?
Why do you care so much about recognition from the leadership of GGWO
(so, called loyalty) and so little about the health (both physical and Spiritual) and well being of Christ's body?
Loyalty belongs to Christ
not men who are wolves in sheep's clothing and lead other members astray intentionally.

You are such an easy read and don't even realise it.
You are way in over your head here because you refuse to acknowledge righteous judgement according to scripture.

What do you know of Christ's love when you blast those who are watchmen and women for doing what they are commanded to do?

You sir need to get a clue.

John Collins,

Have you not read and understood what the scriptures teach in Phil 2:12 ... to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Do you mock the scriptures and belittle the intent of the Spirit? Verses 13 &14 qualify the intent of verse 12. Where is the fear and trembling in 'working out' your salvation? Those who are very close to you and love you should be able to witness this. Do some question your method and what is truly in your heart? How can you say the things you do and call that spirit and truth? Either you have a heart of love for the lost or you do not. Either you seek them out or you do not.

Rom 14:7-13 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

Let's put some "balance" in there.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

David Munson,

STOP WAGGING YOUR TONGUE AND SHOW ME YOUR FRUIT!

this "toots" character and/or the guest probably wonders why people are leaving his "church".

I see I touched a nerve.

I don't think I've claimed "to have all this knowledge and insight". There are any number of pastors and Bible college or seminary graduates who could say the same things I say. If you, or anyone else at Greater Grace World Outreach, would like to rebut my comments on Grace Hour and GGWO sermons, please go ahead and post your take on them. To be honest with you, I feel like I'm making an empty offer that doesn't cost me anything. Past experience suggests that GGWO will not engage in discussion, especially in an enviornment whcih they cannot control.

"And let's see if God is with you." - Are you saying that God is with someone who leads many to Christ in a greater sense than He is with someone who leads fewer people to Christ?

"Go out and love people and lay your life down." Why do you assume you can tell whether that's what I'm doing or not? Aren't you really just upset that I've dared criticize Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller, and Greater Grace?

Your demand that others show your their fruit is a call to sanctification by works. You are setting up a checklist of how you define a Spirit-filled Christian. I'm not particularly surprised, because that's what Carl Stevens taught you. He says, "It's all grace, it's all grace" in one breath but then in another, "If you don't have a bus ministry, you're backsliding." He says if you aren't at church every time the word is preaching you'll be held responsible at the bema seat. This seems to me to be the mindset that Paul was writing about in Galatians 3:2-3: "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

The sidelines, huh? That's another lie that Carl got you to buy into - that everything that isn't evangelism and missions is the sidelines. But didn't Jesus call us to make disciples, teaching them everything he commanded us?

Do you think that Greater Grace World Outreach has a more complete revelation of God that other churches?

Hodeuon

Toots,
the fruit of the Spirit is first and foremost "love".
Galatians 5:22a But the fruit of the Spirit is love.

Love for the well being of the lost and other members in Christ as well.
You see this in most every post made here yet are unable to acknowledge or maybe even recognise it.

You seem to think that love is covering up that which is destructive in the lives of others.
If that where the case then why do loving parents correct their children if not to prevent disastrous results in their lives because of lack of self control?

You either mistake rebuke and correction for hatred or are just making excuses for those who do such things out of misplaced loyalty which is exactly what I percieve you are doing.

The good Samaritan got involved didn't he?
He saw the problem and dealt with it because he refused to ignore it.
(He had compassion)
The others refused to acknowledge the problem and went their own way without ever considering that they could have made a difference.

Who is your neighbor if not the wounded and abused left to die discarded beside the road?

Maybe you need to do some soul searching to see why you think helping others in this situation is sin.

That is what you are inferring.

Hodeuon,

Have you not read nor understood Matthew 7:17-20 verse 20; 'Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them' Love is the first fruit of the Spirit then all the other fruit comes from that love Gal 5:22,23. Without love their is no fruit. Fruit is singular. 'We know we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren, he that loveth not his brethren abideth in death' John 3:14. No love, no fruit. No fruit, no love. Pretty simply. If you can't love you have no fruit. You are fruitless. Without fruit you are not abiding in Christ. John 15:1-10 explains all this. Have you read it? Show me your fruit. Are you sure that the ones you so freely speak and do commentary on are not born of God? We are commanded to love the brethren and to 'Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers' Eph 4:29,30. This is the fruit of our lips that gives thanks to God continually doing good and communicating, sacrifices in which God is well pleased Heb 13:15,16.

You seem to forget in Ephesians 2:10 that we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (good works). The first work is to believe on His name John 6:29. This is what we learned as a babe in Christ when we desired the sincere milk of the word, so that we would grow I Peter 2:2. You need to be taught and to study the scriptures so that you can be approved as a workman not ashamed because of ignorance or private interpetation of the sacred scriptures. You do make a lot of mistakes. Show me your fruit.