Discuss GGWO Tacoma aka Living Grace Church

I didn't think there was a GGWO Tacoma I thought they were IAGM.

I = It is
A = all
G= Greater Grace to
M= Me!

Doesn't Tacoma want to carry on the the inheritance of Carl Stevens or something?

YEAHHH BABY!

Who knows. The last I heard that was the leaning, but they could be doing anything now. If there is truth to IAGM operations moving to FL, maybe Tacoma has changed their direction.

Unfortunately Tacoma has become the poster child for all that is wrong with IAGM. Over 25% of the church has left in the last two years. Including half of the board of elders and the people leaving are ones who have been around for 10-20 years. Most who left did so after getting blown out by Powell over conversations about why changes needed to be made or asking questions like why are we still like Baltimore or why are all these people leaving? As well as feeling that they no longer can continue going to church just to get chewed out for not doing enough or hearing a one sided argument about a private conversation that happaned in the pastor's office. Those who have left have been villified in messages and in private "raps".

The accusation are the same:
*No one has ever come and talked to me
*They all have been influenced by talking to others who have left
*No one has given a real reason for leaving
*They all get drunk now
*They are all a bunch of cry babies who can't just leave "quietly"
*They don't believe in soul winning anymore
*They are against us doing outreach
*They don't care about their personal testimony
*Watch out for their marriages to fail
Just to name a few.

T.P. has gone on record recently stating that there is a rich heritage in our ministry e.g. TBS/GGWO, the only problems or issues that exist are just 5-7 years old other than that there is a rich history. They still have a special or niche message in the finished work. It is important to still have the Pastoral Honor Code e.g. it is disrepectful not to call someone pastor. There is a great emphasis on putting your hand to the work of the church and men are criticized for spending too much time working, or with their family, or going on vacation at the expense of the ministry and going on outreach.

His words and actions are brazenly and amazingly similar to CHS, TS, and Scibelli. Its all damage control and attack and silence those who have left. He just uses a more subtle aproach and vocabulary. Most have been quiet because it is a small church where many of their friends and loved one still attend. But as people have left and began to see and process through the years of spiritual abuse and control even the "quiet ones" are getting angry and begininng to speak up.

Sounds like Powell learned the ways of Carl Stevens all too well and then never really unlearned them. Just another version of GGWO here. You're so right by saying

Its
All
Greater Grace to
Me!!!

Sure says it all. The IAGM has never truly cleansed itself all the way of the teachings of Carl Stevens. This is just further proof of that.

Just more reason to find a church that was never part of TBS/GGWO/IAGM at all!!

Sad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG6jH5UUlJI

What's sad is that this is how rumors and lies are spread. "Best Guess", you take absurdity to a whole new level.

I guess the best thing we can do is ask all of those who left if "best guess" is exaggerating. Why not email everyone you know and find out who is absurd?

Powell could have avoided a lot of problems in his church if he just acknowledged that there is a lot of the culture of GG in his church e.g. criticizing those who have left or having an elites attitude because we have a "special message" etc.. when those who came to him were concerned and aware of that problem.

When I expressed that concern the only answer given was "we never taught that here". But yet how could this be true when tapes from Baltimore were pushed all the time. ABD class on video was required by all Bible College students not to mention taking our vacations during convention, the church giving money from offerings to grace hour and having CHS here yearly. So no matter how you dice it or slice it Tacoma supported and promoted Baltimore and Lenox for years.

The best thing that could have happened was for the leadership to be honest about these things ask for forgiveness and have a brand new start free from all of this. The choice howeverr was to defend all that has gone on and criticize those who had any concerns.

How about him saying that the only real problems or issue have occured recently (past 5-7 years). Many have heard him say this, is this what you call rumor?

http://www.lgministries.org/online_media_m...ails.php?id=322

I guess this message says it all I can't believe best guess would spread these "rumors"

Quickly listen before more is edited out.

I have a question. Since Powell has said that he has only seen problems in the last 5-7 years did he ever notice CHS traveling around with a divorced millionaire for years?

Or the reserved table for all the 12 beautiful secretaries at the rap while listeneing to all the bad things about the other pastors who weren't there? I guess he just turned a blind eye to this like many of us did. Funny how some of us can be honest about that now.

I often wonder what other things a blind eye was turned to for the last 25 years. I think he would call this "flying under the radar".

I am curious as to what part of "Best Guess" is rumors, lies, and absurdity? Is all of it rumors, lies and absurdity? or just some of it? Please explain what you mean?

I can't listen to any of those guys preach any more. It makes my head hurt. Could you give a few quotes maybe? Thanks.

I'm listening to Powell's sermon now. It's said. It should be exhibit A in any discussion of why IAGM pastors really need some theological education from outside the Bible Speaks / Greater Grace / IAGM tradition.

I'm going to grant for the sake of this discussion right now that Tom Powell means well. However, this sermon demonstrates that he is unable to disentangle himself from the bad theology and bad practices of Greater Grace.

1. He tries to let those who left leave in peace. He really does. But eventually towards the end, he questions their Christian walk.

2. He assumes that dissent is necessarily malicious.

3. He tries to be reasonable, and succeeds for quite a while. But then he falls back into thought-terminating rhetorical devices. The rapid-fire buzzwords and the working the congregation up into excited agreement are things he learned from Carl Stevens.

4. He says himself that he and the elders had talked about the situation. He says they're one. But then he acknowledges that he is going beyond what they had collectively agreed he would say. So the elders really aren't an effective check on the pastor.

5. He implies that those who want to keep discussing the situation a) want to focus on pain and B) aren't interesting in evangelism.

6. He says this is the last time he is going to address the situation. You can't say as a pastor. People don't heal on command.

There were some other things, too. I'd have to give it another listen and take notes.

There is one giant caveat to make, though. This sermon was preached in February, 2007. It's September. Some people change a lot in seven months. Others don't change at all.

Hodeuon

It should be said that the message in question was 'preached' before any videos were made, while we were all quietly leaving that place. TP said it was because we were "infecting people" that he had a right to preach it.
1) It is strange that these kind of messages are not needed in most other churches -must be because they aren't 'under scrutiny' by the devil like we were in tacoma, 'because we were so effective in the kingdom'
2)it is also strange that of the over 75 people that have left (in a church that was only 200 People)...not one of them has had a reason for leaving(according to TP). "They have been poisoned or infected with evil". This means that we are all mindless fools that cannot think for ourselves. I would say this to TP...How bad is your teaching and theology if i cannot even use my brain to listen to both sides of any story and then hear from God to make the right descision? How weak is the Bible and the gospel and the Holy Spirit if we are all such weak and mindless Christians?
3) I was personally blamed for infecting someone who left the same time as I did. This was the reason told to me why that message had to be preached. the person in question had already left the church once before and had already discussed with TP reasons why he wasn't happy with the church....all before i ever thought of leaving. very strange how it is my fault. Finally, This message is simply typical of how TP handles things around there....the same way his spiritual hero did. thanks Marked in Tacoma

Here are a few comments about the 9-19-07 service:

- handouts on 2 Cor 10:12-18 were given
-TP said he never wanted a big church
- "Several hearts in the room have been quenched and do not desire the things of God."
-"There is too much gossip. People are not checking ther facts from both sides of an issue."
- "We need to have more foreign students."
(Currently there is a young man from Africa in the Bible School. He is literally penniless and has 5 children he left behind and may not see them for 2 years.)

- "Next Sunday we will preach a message that will present the need for this church to repent."

Thanks for the commentary H. "Best Guess" mentioned that his language is more subtle than GG. He (TP) happens to be educated as opposed to GG pastors and has a greater range of vocabulary to hide his behavior. No mention of marking, infected, conspiracy etc. Rather use self deprication without substance and instead of harping on all the evil and negativity of the ex-members, elevate what we the persecuted righteous are doing and allow you to conclude that those leaving are against all of that, then tell them its okay and we hope they find a church wink-wink that is carnal like they are.

This is an example of what he calls family night. No lie! Family night means that the faithful few have showed up on a Wednesday and he can spank the family or certain members of the family publicly without out using names. Because father knows best. We should be honored to allow Pastor to motivate us by telling us that some of the family doesn't desire the things of God.

This can have a few positive effects in a spiritually abusive church/family environment. Condemn and guilt me into performing and demonstrating that I really do desire the things of God. *Who cares if I have a family and work 40-50 hours a week* OR make me feel special and close to Pastor because I know how much I am putting my hand to the work of the Church. AND OR I have the right to watch others to see if they are the ones he is talking about AND OR not trust anyone in the church because I feel like I am beeing spyed on.

How can anyone check out the facts when they are being scared away from anyone who has left?
The people who are "Listening to gossip" are the ones who are exausted by this type of manipulative and abusive preaching and they finally do go out to check out the facts with the people that have heard all these negative things about.

Interesting, my best guess is that there will be more of the same rhetoric "No one has come to me and explained what is wrong" "I am sorry that you got hurt when all I have ever tried to do is love you" "We have tried to speak to those people and they won't come and speak with us" "Can't we just get over it and move on" "They are upset with Baltimore and try to lump us in with them when the truth is we never taught that or practiced that here"........

....other things probably not heard on Sunday-
I repent for 30 years of being involved with ggwo. I repent for promoting the same type of high control spiritually abusive environment for 25 years here in Tacoma. I repent for sitting in Moses' seat for people’s lives for years. I repent for not listening to friends, elders and church members instead I argued and yelled at anyone who disagreed with me privately, and then publicly debated those same issues openly in sermons during church where there is no one to speak back or disagree with me or check me. I'm sorry that the only explanaition I have for these events is people are just listening to gossip from negative bitter people who can't move on. I repent for statements like "you watch the divorces happen in that group of people who left". I repent for taking any feedback about the present culture in the church as a personal attack against me as if it is my church and not Jesus'.

I hope I am wrong.

I was there. I saw it. I chose to live and speak openly and if any of those clowns try to convince the thinkers that I or my circle of friends are sneaking around spreading rumors it will backfire because that is NOT the case. This tactic has been costly to me and my family, but I'm sticking with it because I know it's not right to behave as Powell has.

He is in the habit of maligning dissenters who at first felt that he would listen to their concerns, only to find out he doesn't give a cr@p about what anyone else thinks, and leaving is the only option, from a group once considered family, which is scary, and many are stuck in limbo hating it there because his preaching comes with so much overhead lately, but the fear of leaving has them paralyzed and unable to jump in to the unknown, especially if that place is all they have ever known.

I know what that's like, I didn't like it either. Once you take the plunge and admit willingly supporting an aberrant christian philosophy, it's so much easier to get on with life. It doesn't happen overnight however. Getting on that is. It can with lots of support from good friends and spending time covering painful subjects, but that is certainly how healing works. You have to clean the wound to get rid of the infection. Painful for sure...

Powells shrill voice of certainty is an act of idolatry. The need for certainty (legacy) is always the temptation of the church when other voices appear. When the congregation refuses the seduction to be domesticated the instinct of this style of authoritative leadership is always to herd. And bully. These guy's sound tired as they hold on with dread at having lost their secure little grip on an imagined world. To think that he (or anyone) would say "next Sunday We (Royal We-Pluralis Majestatis) will preach a message that will present a need for this church to repent." Are you kidding me!? That's more of a threat then anything else. This kind of preaching is almost always spoken to serve the center and neglect the margin.

"Evan_C_H Posted on Sep 20 2007, 11:10 AM
Here are a few comments about the 9-19-07 service:"

Please clarify. Were you commenting on the same message as Hodeoun which he said was preached in February, 2007 or is this a different message you are talking about?

Is he really going to preach on the church's need of repentance this Sunday?

TOP 10 WAYS FOR A PASTOR TO DESTROY A CHURCH

10. Be arrogant

9. Care only for the ones that will follow you without question ( the rest are expendable)

8. Convince people that it's God's will to neglect their families in order to serve the needs of the church.

7. Spread lies and slander about people who leave the church.

6.Meet with people privately in your office, then preach about what you talked about.

5. Preach things like " that's enough of the vacations" or "quit worrying about your problems and get busy with the work of God" or " most of Christianity is like this or that, but we have a "special calling from God".

4. Refuse to acknowlege the facts about your spiritual father and the heritage he left behind. Even when his second hand man openly repents and says that it was all true.

3. When your elders, leaders and respectable christian church members come to you with concerns that your church has many of the same tendancies as GGWO.....blow them out the door.

2. When one of your leaders comes to you and tells you that your church is full of hurting people that are burned out and confused, instead of showing concern, chastise them from the pulpit through what you call preaching the word.

1.When your church is falling apart before your eyes, for Goodness sake, have a family night where you tell your people that "some" of them (everyone has to wonder if it's them) have quenched the spirit and don't care about the things of God. Then tell them to come back Sunday so you can yell at them some more.

This is an incomplete list obviously, feel free to add to the list. I could go on and on, but l'll let you.

In regards to 'Best Guess's' commentary: How can any one say these are lies and rumors? These and many others are the reasons i left the church in tacoma. Some may not agree with these reasons and that is fine, but to say that they are lies is obsurd. Most of the people who have left that place would agree with most or all of his (best guess) commentary. TP would say that it is because they were infected by each other. Funny thing is that most people didn't know that they thought the same things until they met after they left the church. Infection, evil reports, etc. are the same excuses that have been used for 40 years in this ministry to justify why people are wrong for leaving "the ministry" and to cover for the fact that it has always been and is now (in tacoma) a high control and abusive ministry that does not glorify Christ. They claim to be so effective, where is the fruit after 25 years. They're very busy (Martha) but God chooses not to fill their chairs. I would say that it is because "God resists the proud". Arrogance and elitism are the stench that reach God's nostril from that place. I ask you...How can God ever bless that place until humility is found there.....starting from the pastor to the board of elders and anyone else that has bought into the "special niche" B.S. that flows from that place.

SOME MORE WAYS FOR A PASTOR TO DESTROY A CHURCH:

Convince people that serving the pastor and his church is what serving God actually is.

Tell the people that disagreeing with the pastor is automatically disagreeing with God.

Demand the people to cover up for the pastor's sins even though he commits the same sins over and over again over long periods of time.

Tell the people that leaving the church is forsaking God's will for their lives and would bring severe divine judgement upon them.

Openly ignore the hurting people and keep turning a deaf ear to their cries for help hoping they'll eventually leave and become someone else's "problem".

Chew out the hurting people for concentrating on their own problems when they cry out for help and demand that they just accept their problems as God's will and go on and serve the pastor and his church like nothing was ever wrong with them in the first place.

Manipulate people to rat out their friends and relatives for violations of any of the pastor's rules to keep tighter control over the people.

Wow I guess there are a few others who have similar concerns, testimonies and feelings. What really is sad is continuing to swallow even after all your senses are telling you this is poison and rancid and potentially life threatening for you to continue to eat (spiritually speaking). You are not betraying God by being honest about the situation. One of the greatest evils that happened in Baltimore was to willingly mix up loyalty to God and Truth with loyalty to a man and a local church the two are not synonymous. God is not against honesty despite what the bully pulpit tries to make it look and sound like.

Phil, I could not have said it better. Great and accurate comments below.
I am so glad to be out of that place and free to finally Let God love me for who
I am.

It is so disturbing hearing Powell's messages, they are lifeless and depressing, as if there is no hope for anything. Most of all manipulative and still continuing to try to control people. Is this culture ever going to end? Who can stand to hear this. Many in this movement were never cut out to be Pastors, they dont have a love for people. Step down- it is ok.

I listened to the 9/10/07 message on Internet last night and Tom Powell did criticize his congregation and talk about a day repentance this Sunday.

I hope he repents for judging his people for wanting the gg culture out of their church. I wish he could see that the corruption in gg goes all the way back to the early days and affects much more than just a few bad doctrines discussed at Sandy Cove. It is great that Tom was willing to examine the false teaching at gg a few years ago but that as it turns out was just the beginning of what is wrong there. Yet it seems he stopped there and wants to cling to the culture and "heritage" of gg which is mostly bs.

Wake up Tom. By avoiding truly open and on going discussion, you have only hurt your church and drove people away. And instead of listening to people to give an answer, maybe you should receive some answers for yourself and let your friends help you learn how to think again.

Using their terminology, my heart has "been quenched." I no longer desire the nonsense which once consumed my life. If there's a God out there who cares, he's saying woe unto THEM, woe unto these "leaders" for their influence on me.

They will not pass off the blame onto me! Those who once demanded conformity to them and their teaching must take a measure of responsibility for the results in my life. The results in your life. Results in the lives of so many others.

If they (Schaller, Powell, any of them) do not allow for OPEN and UNCENSORED discussion of ANY and EVERY thing, how could anyone possibly know "both sides" of an issue? They all want to merely present THEIR side of the issues, claim God is on THEIR side, and silence any and all other views, opinions and voices.

The truth is never afraid of an honest question. Why do they fear open discussion?

If the survivors of a calamity need to discuss what happened for years, who the hell are they to arbitrarily declare "we will speak of these things no more"? Tom Powell, Ton Schaller, all of you -- we will speak of these things until we no longer have the need the need to speak of these things.

You silenced us for far too long. We are no longer afraid of nor intimidated by you, your bullying, nor your threats to have the hotline to heaven.

You do not represent us. You do not intercede for us. And you certainly do not control us any longer.

and the congregation stood and said, Amen and Amen.

Several weeks ago F. X. (?Butch?) Veader did the Sunday evening "message" -- it was never put on ggwo.org because he spent several minutes lambasting Greeks in Tacoma who put messages on YouTube criticizing GG and company. F. X. said that he would go down to Greek town in Balto and tell them to not speak to these Greeks.

I heard that later he went to T. S. and said that he went a bit overboard about this... Probably half the people in the congregation did not know what the h--- he was talking about. Hey.. you Greeks in Tacoma area... we love you....

What legacy is there that is not present in believing churches down through history? It's that shared heritage in Christ that makes the Church special, not the "unique" things. The desire to be different and better itself drags a ministry off-target. And it's hard to make the change to treating other ministries as you would your own if you don't communicate with them. Sure, there are outside speakers at conferences, and that's a good thing. But until the *congregation* gets a chance to interact with other ministries, I don't think the elitism will entirely go away.

How are things in the St. Petersburg church? They merged with a congregation from outside "the legacy". Has anyone heard how things are going there?

Hodeuon

Butchy makes me want to be Greek for the first time in my life.