CHS said: “And all of a sudden they’ve reached the greater grace maturity level of James 4:6.”

Thank you, Hodeuon, for writing this down. Maturity. AFAIK maturity in GGWO was nothing but head knowlegde. It was not until I had left GGWO when I began to see truly mature Christians and hear from them. And at the same time I realized how immature I was. It was a somewhat painful experience, but it has been also great to hear seasoned men (and women!) who know what it really means to trust God. And they make no number of their maturity either. They are as plain as anyone, but when they open their mouth, you know they are speaking out of their relationship and fellowship with Jesus. The Word simply lives in them. I NEVER saw that in GGWO. Only pseudo-maturity with 100 dollar words, self-made vocabulary and psychological terms.

The GG glossary defines the terms "maturity" and "maturity barrier" as follows:

You are welcome to comment.

The Cyberian

Oh! I meant to comment on this earlier. Here's the proof in their own words that I've wanted that Greater Grace considers itself better than other churches. The "greater grace maturity level"... If you believe that and then name your church Greater Grace, that's pretty much a claim to be the spiritual elite, isn't it?

I think the most insidious part of the definition in the GGWO glossary is at the very bottom, where the maturity barrier is said to be "where God becomes a personal reality". GGWO is simply assuming that God cannot be personal to an immature believer.

Hodeuon

Like I said a few days ago, the worst part of GGWO is that they treat the congegation like children who can't make their own decisions. Well, Carl, now you're the one in diapers.

Some posts have been relocated to The Salon.

See thread: Daved's view on the GG term "maturity"

This point has been raised several times on various threads here recently. Each time I read a reference to it, I wanted to tell you the following story. To me, the truth of the matter is far more insidious then merely treating the congregation that way. In their heart of hearts, the leaders there truly BELIEVE that indeed, they have more knowledge and understanding than most people. Congregants, and even other pastors.

I attended the gathering of gg affiliated pastors in Chicago in May of 2005. I was talking to Greg Warren one afternoon, just before we both flew to Chicago. I told him that I saw the meeting sort of this way (as with ANY analogy, the pieces don't fit perfectly, but -- you'll get the idea):

"It's like a family with a lot of brothers (thinking of all the pastors). They've all been in the family business (the church) together. "Dad" (Stevens) is getting on in years, is too old to continue heading up the business, so the brothers need to meet together to figure out a plan for the future."

As I said -- not a perfect analogy (e.g.: I never claimed Stevens was my "spiritual father")... Main point: I saw all the pastors gathering together as peers. Equals.

How did the gg leadership see these same men? How did they view the meeting in Chicago?

A few hours after I told Greg the above anecdote, I attended an "open forum" at the church in Baltimore. Major topic for discussion: Schaller explaining the upcoming Chicago meeting (which he also attended) to the congregation.

He also used a family related analogy.

Except in his version, there had been problems going on in Baltimore for a long time. He and a few of the Baltimore "leaders" were the adults in his story. And all these pastors going to Chicago -- men he had gone to school with, served with on the mission field, etc. -- all these pastors were like children in a family who don't understand what's going on when mom and dad have a fight. So of course, they were confused. They saw their parents (the Baltimore leaders) fighting, but, being children, of course there was no way they could understand what was really happening.

Knowing what we do about the exaltation of pastors in gg, if the "Presiding Elder and Overseeing Pastor of Greater Grace World Outreach" considers all his fellow pastors to be childish and incapable of understanding, what's his opinion of "mere" church members?

The previous "guest" was me -- the bonehead who forgot to log in first. :(

Can you tell us how Tom Schaller sort of had a nervous breakdown in Chicago and Ken had to take him off stage, sort of like they used to do with James Brown. This is what I heard.

This thing of them treating us like children isn't just patronizing. It means that they don't think that we have a mature relationship with God.

In a way, it puts us back in the OT, doesn't it? Where only the prophets and priests and the occasional Man of God could hear from God...like Moses? GGWO people loved to use that term "Man of God." So and so is an "amazing man of God."

It was GG that taught me that when we get saved, we don't get anything extra from God, but we need eternity to figure out what He gave us...like an eternal stream of Christmas presents to open. So you don't get an extra annointing.

As hip as Schaller tries to be (which is so pitiful at his age), he is still so Catholic--another German pope. He really believes in the clergy and the laity. Scibelli does too--an Italian Catholic.

People left in GG remind me of how the Israelites cried to Samuel, "Give us a king."

GG did teach us about the power of the Word and how it is contemporary and intimate. Sorry, guys, I guess we learned too well. The Word says that we should not be like little children that need the nanny to take us to school, but to be mature. Teachers in GG taught us that, remember guys?

They taught us at MBC&S how we get to go into the Holy of Holies where it is just God and me. I remember Ben Turkia talking about this--maybe at a rap--and he said there would be the sweetest silence.

It is better that a millstone be tied around your neck and you thrown into the Cheasapeake than for you to hurt the personal and vital relationship of a believer and God, his Father.

The most frightening thing about leaving GGWO is realizing that you go to the throne of God alone. You get to hear His voice spoken right into your own ear. Matthew 4:4, come on Schaller and Scibelli and Love, you taught me this...we live by every utterance from God's mouth--directly. In fact, he doesn't use a microphone, so I have to be pretty close to him to hear. He doesn't shout. It says in the OT that God whispers, which means I'm practically on his lap. And yeah, in that way I am a child, because you have to be like a child to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Maybe that is where the leadership is missing out: they lost their child-like faith and misinterpret it as childishness.

Just some rough-draft thoughts.

From what I heard he was given two minutes to speak like everyone else in like an open interaction time. Once it was clear he didn't think it meant him too and kept going he was cut off and stopped by Ken. Maybe an eye witness can fill in the blanks.

I was there, but don't recall this. Then again, my memory probably never was what it used to be... Greg? Jerry?

I do remember him speaking Thursday evening, and having lots of questions and charges thrown at him.

I was not a part of any of these meetings. None at all but I will give an original example of my own. Picture a large group of people, just like the pastors that gathered for Sandy Cove & Chicago Cove and wherever else this stuff was discussed. Imagine the meeting going on and on for months and months. The leader says "let them eat cake." So he pays for everyone to eat chocolate cake each and every day. The problem is the cake that was purchased was terrible, stale and rotten. Group-think sets in and everyone states that this cake is really good. On and on this goes until one member discovers he has a pair (of lungs) and speaks up and cries out loud "This cake is rotten." How did the group react? Did they mark the dissident and send him to outer darkness as mentioned in another thread or did CHANGE CORRECTION and LEARNING take place???

As I cogitate on this a bit more, I do recall Ken being very good as the moderator of the sessions. Can you imagine trying to get an entire room full of gg pontificaters to keep their remarks succinct and on topic?! B)

I still don't recall a specific instance of him doing so with Schaller, but it's entirely possible. Though I'm pretty sure that having to "take him off stage, sort of like they used to do with James Brown" was someone's slight embellishment...

Regarding Chicago and Schaller,

I remember very well. Schaller asked if he could address some of the issues that were being discussed. Ken said of course. Most were taking turns speaking from their seat but Schaller decided to come up front and speak from the front. He stood in front of all of us and started his normal way of speaking. he said something like the following.

um.. well.. guys... um.. well.. I just dont know ( long pause) I just dont know... ( another long pause.

At this point Ken who was all about promoting the evenings agenda said

" well Pastor Schaller, why dont you take a few minutes to collect your thoughts and then you can speak again. Until then lets move on to someone else who is ready"

To the bewildered eyes of all in the room and especially those who were still revering Schaller.

That is exactly as I recall it. That was it nothing more, yet very groundbreaking for us who did not believe in doing such a thing.

Greg

Poor Ken. He was too new and never in Baltimore. He didn't know that Schaller was royalty.

Thanks, Greg. Now I gotta go get the Windex and a paper towel. Remind me never to enjoy a nice relaxing cup of tea while I read this thread.

Seriously, that makes a lot of things about Chicago make a lot more sense.