Several of you have written posts that lead me to believe you were "insiders" in the GGWO Reich. Some of you might have even been pastors.

Throughout the rich tapestry of the GGWO saga, the term "God's Will" or the "Will of God" comes up. A lot of Carl's crap was followed because he insisted it was God's Will or the Geographical Will of God ™. At least one major-league GGWO extra-marital affair appears to have been consumated by the old "God's Will" doctrine. The Dovydenas affair had a lot of "God's Will" in there, as well.

Would you insiders care to elaborate how the GGWO version of "God's Will" worked on a practical basis? Did Carl actually tell people that God spoke to him and said "move to Baltimore" or "go to Bible College" or "marry this woman/man"?

Anyone that has read the stuff (bile? Crap? Bullshit? Pick whatever is comfortable for you.) I post here and on FACTNET knows that this whole "God's Will" doctrine is what really chaps my rear. I acknowledge that suicide bombings are a far cry from conning a woman to sleep with you, but I maintain that unless the Taliban and Al Quaida got the suicide bombers to believe they would be rewarded in Heaven, there would be quite a few less explosions around the world.

I equate this with child abuse. The Bible, particularly the New Testament, strongly suggests that the Christian be child-like, at least in the way they follow God. That's why child abuse is punished more severely than equivalent crimes against adults. Parents or plain adults can get children to believe that most anything is "right". Kids don't question, they TRUST. Abuse takes advantage of that trust. This is the reason that a-holes like Benny Hinn make me so angry. Instead of just stealing money like a respectable thief, he says "it's God's Will, God will REWARD YOU for giving me money".

Anyone out there been a victim of the "God's Will" doctrine at GGWO?

First of all, GGWO shouldn't be comparted to the Nazi Reich. Let's keep it objective so we can do what needs to be done. Let's not attribute more power to them than they actually had/have. As someone said in FN, they are just little tiny men. Like Revelation says, reminding me of the ending of the Wizard of Oz, "Who's the little man behind the curtains?"

Let's get this straight and stick to the facts because they are effective in themselves. As much as Carl preached it, GGWO didn't really kill anyone, didn't have any gas chambers, didn't try to commit genocide. They have a lot fewer guns. Like TnL mentioned, they didn't really affect millions but thousands. Ok, point made.

The reason why I'm making this point is when we use terms like "reich" (meaning reign, correct, Herr Lutz?) we invoke emotional responses from people, and that keeps them from thinking. We want them to use those atrophied muscles again for reasoning. Also, it gets us all emotional, feeling that GGWO was this big, hary scary monster hulk. They devil can play on this, magnifying them. As my dear mother would say, they are nothing but a pimple on the a** of progress. They are silly and pathetic.

On the other hand, to really think about what they believe about the God's will is vital to help us and neutralize them. That's as far as I can take this post--sleep beckons.

While I fully agree that we need to use language that is precise and not inflammatory, I don't agree with your minimization of the effects of GGWO on people.

While GG may not have committed homicide, I *do* believe, based on some rather reliable information that I have received, that at least one person and possibly more harmed themselves (physically) because of how their lives were impacted at GG. Although there were other issues involved as well, the ministry did some devastating and irreparable harm to some folks, including ultimately separating many from God.

Further, while I agree that they are indeed pathetic, they are not the least bit silly. They are not even close to being silly. I can assure you that the pain suffered by people at the hands of this group was not caused by silliness.

If we are going to invoke the verbal "preciseness doctrine", then let's do it equitably. I won't call them Nazis, if you won't call them silly.

Otherwise, the rest is taken as read.

It is not my intention to minimize the effects of GGWO, but to minimize GGWO and not inflate the effects through the magnification. I just want to keep it real. I don't want to maximize the effects of GGWO but to maximize our strategy in knowing themaccurately and dispassionately.

The ministry did do many devastating things that are horrible in themselves. By just keeping to the facts, the facts will stand by themselves and testify. There is no need to emblelish them or cause viseral reactions in those still sympethetic to GGWO but are beginning to reason again. Revenge is best served cold.

It's not exactuly invoking preciseness doctrine, but I know what you mean. There's no doctrine or teaching here I don't think. It's just being plain and precise. I do think the GGWO is silly. It was silly to watch the leaders hold up Schaller on their shoulders on Missions Night. They do a lot of very silly things. Unfortunately, one can be silly and still cause a great deal of suffering: one does not preclude the other.

first time poster, long time reader, here and at that other forum. I like both of them.

I was not in GGWO, but attended some when it was known as TBS. Someone once asked me if I could see the cycles of this ministry. For example, I was in Scarborough Me. and heard Stevens preach about someone who went against the ministry and died. He mentioned another person who might have. His delivery was boisterous, authoritative and effective. I think it was meant to strike fear. He also wouldn't claim to have the power himself but he tried to show the audience, or the body as we would say back then, that it was God doing this because TBS was a ministry that was going into all the world and any ministry that ws winning souls and preaching The Word, would in effect, be protected by God himself. He made sure to make it clear that he wasn't taking the credit himself.

Thoughts went through my head that this was a crock of ****, but at the same time it was like being at a massive smoke in. For all those not of the flower power generation, a smoke in was much like a sit in to protest some injustice only we would sit around and get stoned. It had a mesmerizing affect.

I was easy for me to ignore the warnings and follow along cause it seemed so cool. For once in my life there was a possibility to make something of myself . Build a solid foundation and do good.

I dismissed all kinds of things and didn't know a whole lot more. But things have a way of catching up with you. They did, and when they did, I left.

I'm sure as the cycle repeated itself, the story about the deaths caused by turning against the ministry/God, grew. It grew because it was effective.

In a way, there is nothing new about this story. New people cycling in, some leave, some stay in and are the ones that get infected with evil, not the other way around.

Boss Martian, I hope this helps in your search about the 5 men dead sermon. Could be this is where it got it's start. As far as the Will of God stuff, that was all intertwined into the so called messages. That, a calling, sacrificing all to go into the world, winning souls were the foundation for building this thing that shouldn't be ignored. In some ways, he's like the Nigerian email scam, only Stevens scam hurts people spiritually, financially, relationally and possibly physically. A putrid thing that can't be called God's Will.

Breaking News...to think you had seen this all before so many years ago.

Breaking News - thanks for the post. I also was only involved in TBS. Your post emphasizes that this group was never a real church that got off track but a cult that used Chrsitianity as its tool to indoctrinate people. It is a painful reality for folks who stayed at the 'smoke-in' or 'carl-in' for decades. It seems nearly impossible for folks in the 'inner circle' who made a living from this cult and received celebrity-like status to ever be able to admit such a thing.

Yes and No Louise. I do know some of those older leaders and they readily admit to their inner circle status. They just aren't into it anymore. Those that are still after such things are still in and still after the same thing or have attained it, like Schaller. I know some people from the past who have gone into the world and done the despicible thing by making their lives seemingly by the world's standards! I think are still honest people who consider themselves christians and seem just fine to me. Those people would be considered off in terms of tbs standards.

Some are in churches as pastors and some are not. To me, they all fine. They are in a much better place.

Those still in are more cut off from reality and God than ever. But thats just my opinion after all these years of watching the cycle go round and round gathering more and more energy, wasting more and more, yet I see God use it all and make some really decent people. Including pastors. Just my opinion.