Epistula recently transcribed a Tom Schaller sermon which included the following:

Apparently I'm brain dead or have some kind of thing wrong in my head, because I can't figure something out here. The Bible instructs you to call no man "Father." On what authority does gg defy the Bible and teach that it's okay to Carl Stevens "father"? Furthermore, what chapter and verse do you use to explain how a married woman's pastor automatically becomes her father when she gets married?

Is this really and honestly what you teach, believe, practice and publish? Just because you say so in this one sermon doesn't make it true. Tom, can you prove that this is consistently what your church teaches, believes, practices and publishes? (And lest you be tempted to say you needn't prove anything to me and anyone else not in your church, the Bible says that you do; the Bible says you are to to have a good report among them that are out...)

I think I can prove that it's NOT what your church teaches, believes, practices and publishes.

1) I lived in Finland in the early 1980's. David MacAdam was pastoring a bs church in England. When he was (apparently) beginning his own exodus out of bs, he visited the church in Finland. He made the accurate observation that there was something wrong with Carl Stevens trying to convince us (i.e.: overseas missionaries) that he was our pastor. David's simple point: how can someone 3,000+ miles away be your pastor? He can be your friend, even a mentor, but -- your pastor? David's point made perfect sense to me. Once he left, the other American missionaries (including James Morrison), pledging allegiance to CHS, made sure to show me the folly of my ways, admonishing me that of course CHS was our pastor.

Another red flag I added to the collection...

2) 20+ years passed. Along with Tom Schaller and dozens of others, I was in Chicago for the May, 2005 meeting that turned out to be the birth of the IAGM. At one of the sessions, I publicly told Tom Schaller a story and then asked him a simple question about the story:

My wife had brought someone to a gg service for the very first time a few months earlier. It was the Wednesday evening when the elders had voted (twice) to call Rodger Stenger as the pastor of your church. She then began attending regularly. During those months, she frequently heard Carl Stevens scream at the congregation that he was their "pastor for life" whether they liked it or not, bla-bla-bla... She also observed the debacle of Rodger's short lived tenure as the elected pastor, watched CHS and the elders invalidate that vote, was there when you ascended to the head pastor's position.

The question I asked Schaller: at that point in time, who was the woman's pastor? Stevens said he was. But Schaller had recently been coronated. Who was her "one" pastor teacher?

He wouldn't answer the question. I interpreted his silence as an attempt at plausible deniability. If he answered that in fact HE was the pastor, he'd be going against and contradicting his father. If he said Stevens was the pastor, how would he then explain HIS position in the organization. So he said nothing...

Tom, who was that woman's pastor? And since Stevens repeatedly thundered that same arrogant, "I'm your pastor for life" nonsense in the plaza pulpit, who is the pastor now for all those who were there then and are still there now? Was he wrong when he made that claim? Or...?

Simple questions, aren't they?

Actually, what some GG churches teach and publish include:

3) Greater Grace Church of Takoradi and Sekondi, Ghana publishes information about "...our Pastor, Dr. Carl H. Stevens..."

4) Greater Grace of Tennessee believes that "Our founding Pastor, [is] Dr. Carl Stevens..." (Really? When did he ever plant a church in TN?!)

5) The Greater Grace Church in Bangkok claims, "We have had Pastor Thomas Schaller as our spiritual leader since our inception in September of 2004." (Words have meaning, Exactly what do these words mean, that Schaller is their "spiritual leader"?)

That's five examples of what gg teaches, believes, practices and publishes on this subject. As my real father (and I never claimed CHS was my "spiritual father") used to quote, "What a tangled web we weave..."

Talk about unbiblical headship, trying being a woman in GGWO. We had to wear our own spiritual burka (black dress of Muslim women). You were considered braindead if you didn't have a "covering." Looks like Lisa Schaller never got a chance to think for herself.

At GGWO, any kind of thinking for yourself is condemned as evil rebellion against the delegated authority and covering of your pastor teacher. Those pastor teachers expect you to put your brain in neutral and let them do all the driving.

I think this is a basic tenant of GG--they don't care who your god is, think about it--they care who your pastor is. It's the need for a mediator between you and God. They are taking Christianity back to the dark ages of the Catholic church.

In the dark ages, most people couldn't read. There were few manuscripts. People had to depend a lot on the clergy.

GG leadership believes that you are incapable of interpreting the bible correctly yourself--that you will become decieved. Are you getting this, you Americans who love your individuality--your sense of independence? You sing, "Let Freedom ring!" Let this certain sound ring in your hears. Don't ignor it.

Pastors are a gift from God. They are your servants. They are like your coaches. They help you run the race. But you have to run it yourself.

You want to be accepted by Pastor Schaller and Pastor Scibelli. You want their approval. Do you want it more than God's approval? How would you know for sure? Have you listened for God's voice lately? Don't let me tell you. Let God Himself tell you. I think you may find that He wants that place in your heart that you've given to your pastors.

Your pastors think they are helping you. They think the more they control you, the more they can make you walk in the right path. They may be very sincere. But God has them only to guide you, not to manipulate you. It is not all their fault if you worship them. Full maturity means responsibility for your own actions.

Don't be afraid. You can go to God alone. He won't yell at you. He loves you. Just don't take the bible to services. Open it up and read it on your own. You have the mind of Christ. Yes, YOU do.

These guys care very much about who your pastor is. They want your pastor to be one of their own, a GGWO pastor teacher. They think only the GGWO pastor teachers can correctly interpret the Word of God and think for themselves without getting decieved. Others as they see it would get decieved and contaminate the rest of 'the body'. They also want to control people and use them for their own personal benefit. No wonder they want everyone else around them to put their brains in neutral and let the pastor teachers do the thinking for them. They don't want people thinking for themselves because free thinkers won't be under their control. Free thinkers may dare to disagree with them too. They can't stand that!!! They feel why would anyone refuse their perfect categorial doctrine. They must be evil, bitter, negative and off. They must be ousted and marked. Then replace them with more people to serve the cult leadership. Maybe they will stay loyal to the GGWO vision, submit to the delegated authority, learn categorial doctrine and stay with the pastor teachers they want them to have. LETS HOPE NOT!!! Hopefully these new people will see the light and trade in their GGWO pastor teachers for real pastors with shephards' hearts who will show them the real truth and help meet their needs.

Maybe they'll realize that they haven't heard a lot about Jesus Christ. Maybe they'll remember that Easter is supposed to be about how Christ died on the cross for our sins and rose again. Maybe they'll trade in their pastors for God Himself.

A trade that is very, very much worth it. I gladly take Jesus over those GGWO pastors!!!! Much better to hang out with the One Who sets people free instead of ministers of bondage.

bump

In my home town a former ggwo pastor (left some time ago) who also has another profession publishes ads about his company in a Christian newspaper telling that he is a pastor. Can he do that, when he's no longer part of GGWO and his pastorship is valid only in GGWO?

In other words, is "pastor" a degree or an office? If someone has graduated from the GG Bible School and he's been ordained, will he be called Pastor So and So forever, even if he's working 100 % in another field? Just wondering, because half of the folks were called pastors...

John,
you mentioned "Once he left, the other American missionaries (including James Morrison), pledging allegiance to CHS."

Not only did he do that but he handed out "allegience documents" to be signed by the congregation. in Framingham.
I wonder if this was a tactic to hold over peoples heads at some pint.

I wonder what became of those unbiblical allegiance documents"?

My pastor is the man who knows and cares for the condition of my soul to the extent that is humanly possible. Not just whether I am going to Heaven or not, but whether I'm growing. My pastoral role model is Richard Baxter. The Wikipedia article has an interesting line:

"The Reformed Pastor, a book which Baxter published in relation to the general ministerial efforts he promoted, drives home the sense of clerical responsibility with extraordinary power."

Baxter preached to his church for several years with little result. When he began to visit each household, inquiring as to the spiritual condition of the members and teaching them, his church experienced tremendous revival. "Clerical responsibility" is the pastor's accountability for the condition of the flock. It's more than just preaching sermons or administration or vision, it's knowing and caring for the sheep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baxter

Seems far too many religious people are willing to push the boundaries on right and wrong...

If he didn't turn in his ordination and gg didn't revoke it, then legally he's still a pastor. e.g.: can still marry people, even if he's not "working in the industry" as a pastor full or even part time. Marriage and baptisms are the only functions of a pastor I can think of right away which have legal impact. (Seems I recall seeing a baptism certificate listed "somewhere" as a legal document in certain situations. Can't remember the specifics...)

I suppose different states might have different laws on how they recognize and accept an ordination as being valid. I don't know; never looked into it. I'd guess that to avoid "separation of church and state" issues, most states probably err on the side of "if he has the paper and SAYS he's a pastor, he is..."

Within the church, pastor is an office. Within gg, there's no degree required. If the person has been ordained, he gets the paper stating so, and can hang up his shingle as a pastor.

Many ordained men (and woman) serve in denominations which aren't quite so fastidious about using the title all the time, and do not go by "Pastor." Just introduce themselves as Barney or Betty...

As a personal example: I was ordained. A few times... Was known by the title for a long time. I do not work as a pastor anywhere, do not use the title, and do not want people to refer to me that way. Just call me John. Or Barney...

There's a number of other former gg pastors posting here, along with Bruce Moon and G3. None use the title here.

You could always contact the newspaper and ask them this question. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say...

OK. I love you, you love me...

Barney as in the big purple dinasour?

Great thread here. Thanks Barney....it is in those little conversations that so much becomes plain.

Heading out to dinner with my family...Italian...my "pasta" will be on my plate...hopefully smothered in a nice alfredo sauce.

Nope.

That was the 2nd reference to Barney in that post. The first one was about this couple. ;)

But of course, we DO all love Mace!

Interesting... This thread began a year ago. When Schaller mocked those who dared ask questions, calling them brain dead. Really cultivates an open, stress free environment where anyone feels comfortable asking questions doesn't it?

"Is that, anybody got, like their brain dead and can’t figure that out? Anybody here got like some kind of thing that’s wrong in their head?"

As the title of the thread asks -- who IS the pastor? Not just of gg in Baltimore -- of EVERY gg church -- who is the pastor? The local senior pastor? Or Carl Stevens? Or Tom Schaller? Maybe a plurality?

"It’s like, is that the way the 500 pastors in our affiliation teach it? Is that what we believe? Is that what we practice? The answer is, ask them. That’s what we believe, that’s what we publish, that’s what we teach. Yes, I believe in one pastor teacher."

I just revisited the three gg websites I linked to in the opening post. You know, here it is a year after Schaller called folks brain dead if they didn't get it that they believe in one pastor teacher. Yet those three churches are all still claiming they have a "local" senior pastor, but either Schaller or Stevens is really their pastor or spiritual leader. (Exactly what does "spiritual leader" even mean?)

I resent the mockery, Tom. No, I am not brain dead. But no, I CAN'T figure it out, since there's a mixed message being communicated. Words have meaning. Of all people, as a public speaker (with his sermons archived on the WORLD WIDE web where billions of people have access to them), a preacher should be the most clear in their communication.

Woman freed from GGWO,

Lisa Schaller, probably has more spirituality and godly conviction in her little toe than you could muster up in a lifetime. Why don't you go home and tell your family they raised a brain dead moron.

GUEST300... YOU ARE A ONE TRICK PONY... JOIN ME AND I WILL TRAIN YOU... YOU CAN BE A SMALL CANDLE FOR A BIRTHDAY CAKE IN 6 MONTHS...

I think that Guest300 is not a christian.

G300,
I really don't think you want me to get started on Lisa Hughes Shaller, however, since you opened the door it's fair game now.

How dare you assess and compare anyone's spirituality.

I will assume that you have given permission to revisit the evulation of Mrs. Schaller through the decades.

Now, go about your father's business. Don't you have some dead that need burying whited sepulcher?

I will take my time on this one, I want to make sure that I give a true an accurate account of Lisa precious saint that she is, and she is.

Has anyone else noticed that several of the former pastors that post here are willing to help people while the men that still claim that title and may still be on the payroll are doing a terrible job? Is this a coincidence?

No!! Its called a strong correlation!!! Seems that when one really gets away from GGWO and its mindset, then usually more love comes out, more compassion, more realness, more caring, more of Christ Himself and more and more.

I tried to re-ordain John Collins and make him pastor for life :D but he wrote a long email stating: ”If drafted, I will not run; if nominated, I will not accept; if elected, I will not serve."

Such a categorical rejection of a candidacy is now referred to as a "Shermanesque statement" after William Tecumseh Sherman.

Go figure!

Stevens and current leaders teach that is there is only one overseeing pastor-teacher over each individual church and that pastor is the authoritative administrator and communicator for the church. This is in error because no where in the New Testament does it speak about about a church having a sole authoritative figure and communicator. In fact the exact opposite is given. Every time pastor, elder, bishop, shepherd, and overseer (synonymous terms) is used in the New Testament it is given in the plural. Acts 14:23, 20:17; James 5:14 all refer to elders (plural) in a (singular)church . The only time reference is in the singular is when it is used to xpress leadership qualities. Leaders are given to protect and feed the church. Some may be better teachers than others and some may have more spiritual influence than others, but they are given as a gift to the body. One reason for many leaders is for spiritual accountability. The other is that believers may be prepared for ministry to edify the church. Notice it is the believers that are edifying the church. There is only one head, only one chief shepherd and that is Jesus Christ. There are is no such thing as chief pastors or chief elders in the Word of God. TBS/GGWO have a chief elder and elders to designate the authority of the pastor over the other elders. There is also no such thing as office of a pastor. The only time office is used in the KJV, the Greek word is service or ministering service.
I have written elsewhere on Stevens incorrect viewpoint of pastor-teacher elsewhere. http://z10.invisionfree.com/DiscussGGWO/in...dpost&p=2712514

Stevens adds to the above that he is the pastor for someone for life. This leads to divisiveness. Followers of GGWO call in to Grace Hour and proclaim Stevens as their pastor when they are attending an affiliate church somewhere else. How can that be? People would maintain allegiance to Stevens even though they went to another church that had a pastor. Oftentimes they would rat out to Stevens the "wrong" things that pastor was doing in the church and Stevens would then "uncover" that pastor in messages from the pulpit or in raps.

TBS/GGWO also teaches submission to the authority of the pastor's teaching is required and one is not allowed to question what he teaches. (One can attempt to question but the person will be told in varying degrees that the pastor doesn't teach that.) Stevens has more than once said that the man of God "literally takes God's place" and there is an anointing upon him so the words he is speaking are from God. To question the pastor is to question God. People that question in TBS/GGWO are ostracized through slander.

BMore and others, could you comment on how a New Testament Church should pay the Pastor? Should the overseeing pastor-teacher have control over the finances? Some of these guys LOVE 1 Timothy 5:18.

It's funny that in most of the GGWO churches I've known the pastor managed to crash and burn the church finances because he was the boss and no one else could effectively stop poor decisions. Those who did do well most often let others do the finances who were better administrators.

The Discussggwo administrator recently created the "members only" section and explained existing threads could be relocated to this section, where "Board registration is required to start topics and post replies. Guests may continue to read as desired."

I asked the admin to relocate this thread before it degenerated into yet another thread for irrelevant, off topic rants...

In the interest of avoiding every appearance of evil, there are a fair number of pastors who don't handle the funds. Some churches have a treasurer and a financial secretary. One handles money being given to the church, and the other handles expenses. They don't get access to each other's books.

As far as what a pastor is paid, one thing a congregation can do is find out what the median salary for their area is and pay the pastor that.

Hodeuon

A side comment to the specific question:

The Southern Baptist church I pastored for about 12 years had an annual finance meeting, open to all members and anyone else who was interested. Every line item in the budget was addressed, in writing, including any compensation to the pastor. And every item needed to approved, by a vote of the church members.

I believe this is a very common approach in many (most?) SBC churches, and probably many other denominations as well. All the revenue the church has came from the church members -- they should thus have a say in how its spent.

Stevens always taught that the pastor shouldn't be able to sign the checks. However, the history of his churches (Lenox and Baltimore) make it clear that whether he SIGNED the checks or not, he obviously had control over the church revenues. If he wanted a few hundred thousand to buy a luxury condo in FL or nearly 1/2 million for hush money, it was his for the taking...

This talk of salaries is interesting but there is also the idea of assets and sustenance...it is one thing if a pastor gets a salary and then supports himself and his family on that salary but don't forget other things like housing, cars, gifts...
I remember a lot of times when carl bragged about not earning a salary and then said he did do consulting work on the side...what was that all about?

But here is a quetion concerning the pastor and houshing. I was in the Baltimore County Courthouse on several work related projects, and one day while in the record of deeds office, I looked up the address where CHS lived...can't remember the name of the town...up north of Belair...anyway...the title to the property where carl lives was in the churche's name.... I understand many churches come with a parsonage/rectory but what about now?

Under the "pastor for life theory" what does ggwo do? Are they keeping carl in his home and paying his bills and now paying for tommy's home too? Is Schaller's home listed as church property or in his own name? Even if it is listed in his own name, who pays the bills? Istommy treated differently than carl on the housing issue.

After writing my last post, which was full of grammatical and spelling errors, sorry, I scrolled down and the advertisement at the bottom of the page was for a publication entitled "the secret of church salaries." Very funny.

Need more coffee this morning...the publication is not entitled "secret..." the subject of the book is compensation of people involved in church work.

If the church owns the house they are likely not paying property taxes on it.

I was wondering about property taxes as well....I remembered the town name...Fallston.

It's just interesting to me...they will never get another dime from me so it is no skin off my back but I remember struggling with bills and families who just about lived out of their cars so it is interesting. Not that those situations don't occur outside of ggwo...but the way that carl was taken care of and still is unless someone can prove otherwise.

I also remember times when they would put out special collection jars to buy a special birthday gift for pastor...but they made a big deal about not deducting that money from your tithes and offerings.

Frankly I would love to file a class action lawsuit for tithes and offerrings back that were made under false pretenses. Yes, that would make me an Indian Giver.

Well this probably belongs in a new thread, but I found this article about the basis of lawsuits to recover tithes...interesting.

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/lawsuit.htm

I heard that in a GGWO church in a Northern European country a good part of the so called Faith Pledge money for missions is paid directly to Tom Schaller. If I understood correctly, in the annual missions conference, where the numbers are shown to the pew-fillers, the total sum going to him is included in the money going to Hungary. The people think that the total sum under the title "Hungary" goes there, but actually a part of it ends up in Schaller's pocket. Is it legal? Probably (I have no idea). Is it ethical? NO! And it has continued for years.

Yes, the Fuhrer Bunker is in Fallston. You should post the address so we can all knock on his door on Halloween dressed up as the devil...

Where I grew up there was a Nazarene church with the parsonage right on the property. We played football on their front lawn and street hockey in the parking lot even though none of us went to the church. Maybe GGWO would let us have a cookout and play frisbee in Schaller's yard...

I guess it's SOP for churches to provide housing for the pastor. (I'm flashing back to a liquidwaves gag about "don't muzzle the ox.") Typically they provide health care, retirement etc. I don't know how it works with GG since Junior always claimed "I don't get a salary."

I don't know if churches pay property taxes. What happens if they sell the property at a profit?

As John mentioned the certificate of ordination is under separation of church and state. The state leaves it up to the churches. In Maryland it's a step further, MBC&S is recognized by the state as granting Bachelors Degrees since it's a religious institution. It's just not accredited, the credits don't transfer anywhere. (Individual "seminaries" may decide to transfer credits, there was a story that Liberty was accepting some but I'm not sure.) There is some type of registration process for churches but I'm not sure what the qualifications are. I don't think it was a problem when the church moved to Baltimore, but it's possible they went in under the "license" of the church that was already there, thus avoiding questions of why they left Lenox.

John also mentioned the annual financial meeting. I went to Grace Fellowship in Timonium for a while and I was surprised to see the amount of the last weeks' offering was always printed on the front page of the bulletin.

I turned in my ordination when I left.

I don't have the address or I would list it but there is an awful lot of information avialable on public record.
I think arguendo was implying that because the house is listed as church property that means they avoid paying property tax under non-profit laws...is that it?

I no longer live in Maryland but some info might be available online.

Anyway this thread was about the office/role of pastor teacher. Since I never plan on sitting under one again I obviously don't care whether people believe it's one for life or not...the answer for me is NA (non applicable)...

CARL H STEVENS Born Nov 1929

*EDITED by Administrator*

ZABA DABA DO !

All ya need is to do a ZABA search.

Here's a site that allows a person to find the address of any one.

http://www.zabasearch.com/

It is a public utility.

I have decided to be magnanimous on this one and let it rest. Lisa bears her cross daily and I wish her no ill.