Evil Overlord's Office Ornament, Hero's Love Interest, described as beautiful, deadly, and mysterious, a character who tends to be either hated or loved.

Dark Past. Can we just get an extra order of angst, please? Suggested scenarios include: last scion of an ancient and decrepit line, street orphan made good, deliberate creation by mysterious figure, Dark Elf.

Madonna/Whore archetype. It's obvious which side of the line she falls on (is this why she's hated?), and yet she's ultimately a 'good' character by the narrative. Is this something of a feminist victory? Or is it depressing that she's generally subservient to males and almost viewed as 'property' as a minion?

They made a Love Interest a necrophile to avoid making her Not A Virgin. Not a good move, in my opinion. Were the writers trying for really odd subtext, comedic value, or just avoidance of the issue?

Species. What IS she? Merely superhuman-freakish, or some sort of elf? Would she able to walk down a street in Lightning City without attracting undue attention?

Despite the shapeshifting, she returns to one form. Would that form age?

Program/choice duology. She's the character who most embodies the theme of defying the program. How has she done so far in defying it? To what extent is she actually bound by the program?

What did she see in Lord Fear? Power?

Assassin? Thief? Courtesan? Mercenary? How much could any of these terms apply to her?

She may have 'died' for Ace, but could she manage to live with him?

What would she be doing after everything finished? Get a job in the human world? Try to help change the Sixth Dimension? Attempt to rule it fairly, being evil enough for politics but good enough to want to do a good job?

What happened to her at the end of second series? ('My last gift to you'.) White Hot Oblivion? Datastream? Sixth Dimension? Any chances of her arriving back? From her line to Ace, I think it's unlikely that she's going to get back without the Kilobyte-mind-control thing. Thoughts?

Lady illusion is a bit of a converted character to me - in that I started out hating her and now have a pretty decent respect for her. Maybe because I've finally learned to differentiate between liking a character as a person and liking them as a character.

Yes, when it comes to LI the dark past is flaming well rampant, she's probably amongst the most likely character's to have one, and there are numerous theories about what it could be. It's a gerat opeprtunity to think of who knows how many plots for her - gotta love that

I'm still not totally convinced that LI is a "good" character. Se is a sympathetic character is ways, and does good things, but englightened self interest really doesn't nessecarily constitute good. however most recenty she has quite clearly been portrayed as a person with every oppertunity to be good. And every chance that she'll do just that. The whote/madonna archtype... yes quite clearly there, but I like the way her englightened self itnerest sheds some variety on that.

Wh says the fact that lord fear's a skeleton and a necrophillia subtext had anything to do with the plot? I can see a few writer's gigging about it, but lets not forget, the show was aimed at chidlren. I expect avoidance of the issue was the matter, we're probably supposed to see her as the non sexual office ornament and companion... but sicne when did the office ornament have no sexual link whatsoever? Personally it depends on your opinion of the issue I think. Necrophillia I wodner if it is always a right choise of word, because that suggests soemthing awful done with dead corpses, Fear's obviously alive - he just happens to be a skeleton. Typical kids show plot device - writer's giggle behind their ntoepads while symaltaneousy claiming innocence on all counts of child and adult atttudes to the pairing.

Okaty that's a good one - I dobut species is relly a big thing when it comes to this show - theres a lot of variety (though the ehroes tend to be causican males) she could have been intended to re[resent an ethnic minority. But to be honest her species doesn't worry me. She's itneretsing, and her appearance and nature gives way to plenty of opperunities for past stories and fic dieas, that's good enough to me, i don't think I actually need a name for her species.

I think the question should be would ANY of them age, it just happens to have conveniently ended up here but yes, we do have to wodner if her shapeshfiters original form is more perhaps "fixed" in some way, even if the other CGI's aren't (though I assume that they are, myself - they're not designed to age in that sense IMO) perhaps not, perhaps so. Who knows.

She does embody defying the program, the most obvious being that she falls for the ehro (asusming this isn't what rick wnated to happen but with those guys brains who flaming knows...) she also went directly against , yet i still notice she didn't defy whatever it is that prevents her from harming fear (though i did see a lot of malice in her explosives-throwing game in early series two) she just protected Ace - which is evry against program, but also got ehr destroyed - and i'm rpetty sure survival at all costs would have been in her program too - all these contradictions make my head spin.

I don't think she saw anything - "You can't elve me, we're programmed to be together" and all that. In gameverse I can see an appeal to power, or eprhaps she was regarded as a freak in her world and fer was the first perosn to accept ehr, or maybe she decided to just play the role of a trophy for her own means, tyhough overall it appears to be a "bound by the program"thing which she's thankfully gotten over. Mostly anyway.

Ding for hi mand lviing for him... two different thigns indeed. ;) lets look at the functioning success of this relationshipo - if we see anymore covnersation between them in the next seiee, logical, random or maybe even just plain random coversation, then we can see their ability to lvie together - love comes from the ehart and is insticntive, but relationships and cohabitation takes communication (that and being able to refrain from attacking your partner's best friend which we all know is gonna happen :P) shall their ship succeed? we'll find out soon enough, but lets hoping it's not just based on the factors we've seen so far.

I perosnally rather see them having a fulfilling relationship which stays with them forever and etaches them much about the world and tmselves, but I would be content to see them go on their own way. I'm going allsoppy and disney on you now an remembering the alst scene from pocahomtas "We travelled the same path ocne, i have fond where I belong" was a stand out line. yes,m they travel the same path jhere, and they have developed a fantastic relationship beause of it. But I can see them thanking each other for that, and going their own seperate ways in the end, and being betetr people because of it. Sometiems yo uknow people al lyour lfie and they have noimpact on you, soemtiems you know them a short while and they change the coruse of your life in incredible ways. Who knows what'll happen to this couple? Only time (and hopefully good wriitng) will tell...

LI is also perhaps the only CGI who could fucntion wall in the human world, and her ability to become human is also probab;y a part of her differ4ent eprosnality to the other evils - ie she can take on the forms and therefore, characteristics and duenrstandings - of other people.

I don't see why they should treat her death any different to the others, though we have never seen her taking on an object of sorts (one fanon theory is mirror, I believe?) so here's hoping dta stream, but whatever way at least it gives ace some opeprtunity for angst which should help for character development. And it's be nice to see her back.

I think of her as a 'good' character, because she's on the side of Our Heroes, and if we look at it very simplistically in a 'either good or evil' way, it's obvious which side she's on. But she's going to choose her actions on the basis of enlightened self-interest rather than any overriding moral reason. She's the sort of character who may do technically 'good' actions, but she's not going to do them for 'nice' reasons...or admit, even to herself, that she's a Good Guy. She'll be civil and not bother to harm the defenceless and fight for those she cares for, but she won't like others thinking she's a Nice Person. I've seen characters similar to her before, who have a view of themselves as cowardly and sensible, or amoral and competent, or emotionless and calculating, and even if the things they do don't seem to fit into these views they'll still explain them as fitting in somehow. LI's going to defend the enlightened-self-interest point of view, especially because she can't defend any moral positions without making herself a hypocrite (and that's one thing she's not) and point out the flaws in the Good Guys at will, even if she works with them.

I think the necrophilia has to go back to the 'hero's love interest must be a virgin' thing. And of course you can make the relationship between her and Fear go as far as you like, but one would assume that he wouldn't enjoy a physical relationship much except as a power thing. You're right about the 'writers giggling' thing; I can't see them not knowing what they were writing and having a smile over it. The point was 'no sex', really, 'cause it's a children's show, but we with our twisted minds...

She IS the 'token ethnic female' as far as that goes, but she's interesting in a way that isn't token. 'Dark Elf' would be the most obvious way to describe her, of course, thanks to the pointy ears, delicate features, and aura of mystery and magic. (That sounds so Sueish.)

Random has greying hair, so I think in the context of their world and an Uberverse-style story they would age. Not sure if elves should be immortal or not. Or if it's in their programming to age. :P

I'm sure she wouldn't have been supposed to fall for the hero, by Rick or in the game; to pick just one example, if she hadn't loved Ace she'd probably have just stunned him in 39 and let Fear and Mark get defeated. According to Mark, it 'wasn't in the manual', and Rick-controlled Kilobyte believed that she couldn't love Ace or betray the villains. So I'd say that definitely wasn't in the program. And while I do see the malice in the target-practice game in series 2, I think that may have been directed more towards Staffhead (whom she's been antagonistic towards virtually since the beginning, and it seems she CAN attack him when he's isolated as per 26). I'd actually write her as knowing she probably should hate Lord Fear, but under the terms of the program not being able to rustle up anything better than 'terror'. It's really easy to draw a domestic violence sort of subtext there, what with not being able to leave. I'm not sure if that was intentional or not, and I hope not, because 'domestic' is not an adjective I want to apply to the CGIs.

And I'm sure the contradictions hurt her too, which is maybe one of the reasons why she doesn't want to give up on her hate for Sparx: it helps her with the Staffhead situation, and it's a bit of the program she doesn't object to.

I think we definitely need to see them talking more and spending time together; not all of it has to be shown on screen (why I'd like to theorise meetings in the woods outside the Thunder Tower or missing scenes). But communication's definitely essential to managing a relationship, and I find it hard to imagine her moving into the Thunder Tower with Sparx, too. I think they have the potential to work; they're approaching each other as equals rather than as mentor/mentee or master/minion and while she'll get blasted for him she wouldn't, say, let him leave the toilet seat up; they're both witty and intelligent, and you can easily see them playing chess together; they both like dancing; and they're in a similar profession, with similar emotional issues. Enough in common to have a relationship, but they're also different enough to make things interesting. It's possible they could agree to move apart after everything they've learned from each other, though personally I'd prefer to see them involved in something permanent.

She'll definitely have to come back, as she embodies defying the program, but whether she's dissolved into the datastream or screaming in White Hot Oblivion or hiding among the zombies is unknown. Maybe one of the early scenes of series three will simply be her and Kilobyte, similar to Eclair's Bride.

Theorising that her propensity for turning human could have helped her start having feelings sounds promising, and I wonder if she'll end up choosing at the end to move into the human world at least on a part-time basis.

An obvious Villainous Cause could be discrimination against...odd-looking powered people, suggesting that she would be thought freakish by, say, people like Sparx. That the world is a dangerous place might also be suggested by her tendency to choose male morphs.

I think love has played a big role with LI. it's possible that she could have become more enlightened anyway, as a reuslt of her ability to become other creatures and possibly, give her a better udenrstanding of them. But Ace was probably quite a shock to the system. And just what she needed to get on her way to becoming the most program defying of all the characters.

Actually given the content of the 6th ep, Opposite Attraction, I think Mark was right to asusme she came initally to use Ace in order to get his piece of the Amulet, but I genuinely think she felt something she had never felt before and decided against ity. She will put love above anything - even her own life, and even above enlightened self interest.

There's nothing wrong with our twisted minds :P they make things more itneresting, and yes that ship can go as far as you want it to go. office ornament quite often seems to come alongside the tag of sex object, but yeah perhaps fear eing a skeleton was put in there to convicne people it couldn't be psosible. of coruse they wouldn't have make it anything mroe than trophy with that.

I wodner what kind of bond it would be that LI was bound by in Gameverse. I rather like the idea of her being "betroved" (perhaps not the word, they're probably not married in that sense) to him by her family line, maybe even in an attempt to ressurect a dying family into the higher orders of the world. it seems fear wqould be a much respected overlord in Gameverse (gotta love the competence). I can see contracts signed in blood and bound for eternity things. Of course when it comes to canon it's probably just as programming bond.

With the characters you're more fond of there's always the temptation to make them sound sueish by ;lavishing attention on her. heck, we all do it, and even the most striuct of us find it near impossile to avoid. Wouldn't worry about that.

I rather like the Dark elf concept very much and it seems most plausible, I though have her down as an indidivudal who is perhaps aprt of a dying breed. Though I can see scope for realms of a aprticular species existing in the 6D, I also see that there are probably a lot of entirely unique characters with no real species, in giving with a theory of them being created in a paricular way.

Random's hair could have been programmed that way to make him look older but yes, aging wouldn't be a bad thing.. .well, it would in the sense of eventaully dying but... well you get my meaning.

I dunno if she'd chosoe to stay in the human world, though she has the most potential to do so. I think that LI has a deep seated desire to know more, and she can't do that by staying in one place. She has every potential for exploration.

Yes, she really does value love. She only admits it when she feels she has to, or if she's dying anyway, and I don't see her admitting to anything so 'weak' in public, but that is a primary motivating force for her. A 'shock to the system' as you say, but I also don't think that, say, she's particualrly keen on gratuitous carnage either. I get the impression she entered the human world, started to have feelings and thoughts and second thoughts she'd never experienced before, became tormented by hormones, and realised there was something good about Ace...

On the 'enlightened self interest' topic, I think you can still make a case for examples such as 39 being from at least some degree of self-interest--in that case, if she hadn't acted, she'd still have been destroyed by Lord Fear, just not quite as soon. She's stupid (young? Idealistic?) enough to care about an enemy, but she hasn't completely lost intelligence.

Definitely not married, but she's bound to him in some manner that would be explained in gameverse. She'd be a younger daughter, not a direct heir expected to pass on the bloodline, in an ancient line such as you suggested below, and it makes for an interesting and convincing enough theory. Blood-contract or mage-binding or life-debt or something along those lines, yes. I'm sure there are fairytales of young people being sold to sorcerers or gods in exchange for favours bestowed, too, which sounds similar to your suggestion. Or maybe she would be a freak anywhere else, and with Lord Fear has the opportunity to prosper using her skills.

Interesting that you should say she wants to 'know more', considering I've always thought of her as something of a Ravenclaw. She seems to keep herself well informed, though it's a matter of what she thinks she needs to know (ie. doesn't pay much attention to Mark) rather than indiscriminate knowledge-gathering. No way she would turn away from knowledge, though. She may lie to others, but not to herself.

yes coming to the human world was a blow and taught them a lot of thigns, not least the issue of having hormones. What a kick in the teeth it was suddenly being exposed to the real world and realising there was so much more than what was programmed into them. yes I can't see her just announcing lvoe in public withou good erason, but of coruse that doesn't mean she doesn't feel it, as you said, it's a big motivator for her. Seems to override a lot of her other principles. Even her interest in self enlightenment.

I think she has the sense to know when a relationship is over or doesn't work, and I think she could appreciate a relationship ending having more benefit than one which goes on meaninglessly. I think their would work as a short term relationship with a great influence on their lives, then again, I'm always up for a happy ever after :P

I can see lord fear picking up on her great skills and admiring her for it, seeing an ap[propriate trophy, and a valued minion, but whether there's love in it I don't know., I had a fic planned which invovled a certain level of affection for her, despite her being obviousaly selected as a trophy or as part of a bargain.

Yes I wouldn't call her a mind is a parachute person, she directs her learning and awareness, much like a ravenclaw would (that's what she came out as in the test) - it's the personal enlightenment thing again. She gets enough knowledge about mortals morphing them, she doesn't need to associate with them outside of that.

('Self-enlightenment' means developing oneself through gaining wisdom/other learning, btw. I define 'enlightened self-interest' as believing that the way to best further one's own self-interest is to deal reasonably with others, ie. no mass murder.)

Same here; I think she does have enough dignity to leave a relationship when she knows it wouldn't work out. She'll sacrifice herself for Ace, yes, but she wouldn't let him get away with leaving the toilet seat up, so to speak.

Categorize 'love' as 'unselfish', categorize 'love' as 'kind', categorize 'love' as 'gentle', and you get that exemption for Fear/LI right there. She was a subordinate minion rather than someone whose affections he had to work to gain; he could take her 'for granted' and so he did; and IMO he's smart enough to realise she's probably not in love. There would have been respect/appreciation/agreement on both sides, but nothing I'd categorize as love.

The point about Ravenclaw, I believe, is that while Hermione learns for the sake of getting top grades, Luna studies what she's interested in, for no other reason than because it interests her. In a way, I think, as far as LI's concerned Ravenclaw is the 'default' house: her ambitions don't extend far beyond some time with Ace; she doesn't value bravery (though she is brave); and she's certainly not loyal. I do see her as having some Ravenclawish interest in what she values (I can see her beating Ace at chess), though some things such as Mark's love life generally do Not Interest Her.

I do actually see LI as having had the potential for Mass mruder at some point (or at least, no option other than to do it.) I doubt she'd be the kind of assasin that kills outright though. But I do see her perhaps, say, instigating the destruction of a travel shuttle so they can optain a powerful artefact inside without caring how many died. Or at least not showing it. I doubt she would enjoy murder, as it's naturally uncomfortable for all involved and often unneccesary, but I don't see her being wracked up with guilt about it either.

Yes I dunno, I see that you mean but I still see fear as a sort of claudius figure who perhaps came to lvoe her in his own way, but perhaps it goes no further than respect. He certainly seemed quite enthralled with her.

Her that's the way I see her and Ravenclaws - they don't have the typical kind of high-grades intelligence. They are a by nature self interested curious house. But that's not all in asll a bad thing, though perhaps they can lack in empathy. As does LI.

No, I don't think she'll be wracked with guilt either. I don't think we're going to get that whole 'dark night of the soul' for her in canon on the subject of past guilt--she just hasn't done anything that bad, especially if we're dealing with controlled gameverse prior to the interdimensional transport. (Not that she wouldn't angst about the programming, of course. She just won't angst about anything she's done or hasn't done.)

As for the Fear/LI thing, I'm afraid I find it hard to categorize their interactions as 'love'. In episode 6, we hear him saying, "Lady Illusion may have given her heart to Ace Lightning, but she will NOT give him my piece of the amulet!" which IMO shows quite well where his priorities lie. I think it says a lot more for Fear's competence if we cast him as knowing, at least to some extent, about Ace/LI, and not caring as long as he thinks she's under control, allowing Staffhead to blackmail her and on the whole manipulating her rather effectively. I'm sure there was something there, respect or aesthetic appreciation or the need for an Office Ornament or what-have-you, but love would be little more than a human weakness to a villain. Notice also that he only tries to kill her at a point when, firstly, he doesn't need her any more, and, secondly, he's frustrated at Kilobyte and probably feels the need to 'prove' his power somehow. I don't think LI ever makes it beyond second place on Fear's list of those he wants destroyed, and that's before Kilobyte appears.

Yes I have to agree there, on al counts. I expect if she's guilty of anything it would be LACK of interferrence rather than sdome horrible thing she actually did ehrself. I expect fear's ordered some afwul things, and she's just watched the roders being made, and perhaps, feigned itnerest in them for his approvals' sakes.

I still say it was a bit Claudius (Hamlet) with Fear and LI - I.e. he's come to have an affection for her because of proximity. I don't think she was head over heels for him, though. I can see a gameverse betroved arrangement, or some appreciation for him (he's supposed to be a powerful villian, after all).

True. Yes. And to sort of play advocate-for-Fear, now, we see him blast enemies, stupid minions when they annoy him, and LI after she's betrayed him. We don't see him torture Duff Kent when he first meets the guy, and he has a tendency not to kill, especially those who he thinks can be of use. This belongs in the "Villainous Cause" section, IMO: it makes sense for Fear not to be a completely repulsive person to work for. Not that he isn't a lot nastier than LI--he's far more interested in harming the mortals than she is in the first few eps--but it's just possible to paint him a dark shade of gray rather than completely black.

Not so sure on the betrothal thing, but there'd have to be some bond there. Bound to be a minion, chosen as Office Ornament? I wouldn't categorize the relationship as anything formal; in an all-human AU I wouldn't have them as a married couple, say. She wasn't head-over-heels, but I'd go with solid respect, loyalty (maybe he saved her life, maybe she agrees or largely agrees with the Villainous Cause even if she doesn't agree with the methodology), and I'd like to think that intelligent!Fear realises that (love = mortal weakness), and, as long as she's compliant, wouldn't give a damn about her feelings.

Yes – he’s a rather shadowy shade of grey but shade of grey nonetheless, he can’t be impossible to work for, but I’m guessing he was her best option in a harsh world, in some sense of the words. I’d like to see some back story for it.

Yeah and that reminds me rather – Remember Duffy Duff? They never really had any closure on that scene after the secretary morphed into LI… I mean… what was the point? And what was she doing? And where was the REAL secretary at the time? :P

Yup, yup and… yes I think so… though he did, as he said “like her when she was angry”, there’s not much consideration there. You get the sense of him having some obligation to show her he’s worth being subservient to though. It’s the controlling figure in a relationship idea again.

Yeah, I agree. She's the sort of character who'd be the type to have a Dark Past that pretty much excuses/explains her working for him. And it'd definitely be a harsh world--look at how easily Ace accepts that Mark fights, for one.

I think the point was that she was keeping an eye on him, making sure that he wouldn't turn them all in to the human police and be believed. It was fairly obvious that the psychologist wouldn't believe him, but her scaring him this time by empathising that he wouldn't be able to get away from Fear meant that there was less chance of him, say, going to someone else who might believe him and spilling the beans. I'd assume she probably gassed the real secretary and locked her in the ladies' room or something along those lines.

Well, yeah, if he didn't show himself more powerful than her or in control she probably would leave him. He did say he liked it when she got angry, probably because she's usually more the cold-and-calculating type than the passionate type, also, while she's angry, she's not the one in control, and he'd be the one meant to 'rein her in' or direct that anger towards a foe. I doubt he'd let her nag and yell all the time, even if she was so inclined. Like the old saying--they're attractive when they're angry. Dirty old guy. :P

Yeah – the 6D AND Lady Illusion have “dark back-story” written all over them like a bad case of the dragon pox. I expect kids are expected to grow up at an early age in a world like that. And Gameverse wise, it’s not like they were programmed to have childhoods.

Yeah I think you probably hit the nail, there. My guess is they keep a close eye on Mr. Duff. *Is sorely tempted to do a very brief Fanfic drabble of the secretary locked in a toilet/broom closet/whatever. :P

Yes my guess is Lady Illusion isn’t the most passionate of partners, for all her beauty and charm. The thing is, when it comes to lord fear using those kind of calculating and manipulative tactics to control her that you start wondering. Because Lady Illusion is the master of illusions –you’d assume she’d be quite capable of knowing when someone in manipulating her, since she’s supposed to be good at it. Maybe she DID have an affection for him which blinded her to such truths, though I rather doubt that. More likely is the old “it’s in the program” explanation blinding her to the truth than affection.

The lack of a childhood thing is more a result of the programming than anything else, but no doubt she's got a few dark memories, knows "what happens to traitors" and so on. Part of it would be the retconning effect, the need to give her excuses/explanation because we know she ends up with the more morally palatable Ace, but yeah, when it comes to her we're almost certainly in Dark Past territory.

I wondered what happened to the secretary myself. Probably woke up in that closet/toilet with an effect much like Chuck's in ep 4 and didn't remember anything, consulted the psychologist about her memory loss, and got some really WEIRD memories back under hypnotherapy...

LI's actions for most of the series tend to be reactions rather than actions. She reacts to the mortal world feeling so different, reacts to the whirlwind romance with Ace, reacts "oh no what'll Lord Fear do to me", reacts when Ace is in danger... It's more a question of "what else is she going to do" rather than whether or not she's being manipulated, and whether or not he already knew, Staffhead going to Lord Fear wouldn't have been good (in first series). And, yeah, "it's in the program"---it's not her who's top dog at the Carnival of Doom, it's Lord Fear, and as a villain she's probably more the quiet and rather ornamental background type who obeys orders really efficiently rather than, say, official consort or anything.

We don't see her vilifying Lord Fear to Ace, other than the "He's going to kill me" line in 'Choices' (which was entirely true). Probably at least partly because that sort of thing would make Ace/LI look a lot more sordid...

Maybe she has a dark past where certain areas of darkness are meant to be quite normal. For some people, living in a world where you could be killed everyday and where violence and crime affect everyone in one way or another, or even where insanity is a part of life, are considered normal and it was only as she grew up and became aware of other forms of life that her self-englishtened awareness began to kick in. I expect she was probably quite set in her ways when younger.

*Is writing all these ideas down* thanks :P

Illusions are, by efefct usually things that are instigated by other people - they're "fictional" things which react to the behaviour of others, just like you just described LI as doing. It's how other people behave which instigates how an illusion plays out and often this illusion is conrued in the mind of the person who instigated it. So yes, Lady ILlusion is a reacting personality.

Yes, everyone knowes that at the brunt of it, it's not right to go having affairs with other peoples girlfriends - but if the aforementioned boyfriend is willing to destroy girlfriend, it makes it all seem far less sordid. Get down to it and you know it's wrong, even Ace acknowledged this, because of his innately good nature. Probably let him see past what most people would miss.

Oh, yeah, she wouldn't be thinking 'I have a Dark Past', she'd think of whatever happened to her as 'normal' (not compared to some of the human residents of the 6D, but you get the idea) and perfectly explicable. It's almost certainly a 'grow up or blow up' world, and while the evils don't care about gender/sexual orientation/religion/appearance/etc when it comes to determining ability and rank, they wouldn't make allowances for such things either--eg. "Wore a short skirt in a dark alleyway and couldn't fight back? You idiot". Younger I tend to think of her as more braggy and defensive; less likely to try to see all sides of a situation (more 'set in her ways' as you say); and more like the 'gifted!loner' than 'most popular girl in the school'. You could write her as having a bit of a thing against hurting the defenceless esp. children, maybe because of some sort of experience when she was younger and less competent.

Yeah, you're right. Not necessarily because of the "illusion" thing--I think the associations of "deception", "relatively insubstantial," and "must be used INTELLIGENTLY" are more relevant, and you're stretching things with the "illusion = other people" idea--but because, yeah, she's a reactive person. We first see her as a minion, and she seems to work best alone rather than having to give orders and think more big-picture. She's certainly not incapable of taking action on her own--especially if the circumstances require it--but again, we come back to circumstances. And going back to the Dark Past thing, we still cast her as reacting to circumstances.

The elements of Ace/LI are quite sordid if you look at it a certain way, but the elements of Fear being a skeleton (sterile relationship?) and LI not having much of a choice are elements which help turn it back into High Romantic Love. And, yeah, Ace does realise that it's not good to flirt with other people's girlfriends---but I like your line about that same innate goodness causing him to see what others don't, because he really is that genuinely sweet kind of guy.

Yes you can see that - I never thought of Li as going to school but being home taught in a strange sense of the world. I still go with the "grew up in a rundown estate" theory. and her home being a frequent place for her parents "buisness dealers" (perhaps including Fear)who took great interest in the pretty young teenage elf.

LI thinks for ehrself, she has a dark past (most likely) and it all works for a complicated character who can move in a slightly varying style to the usual (like the Knight piece that we associate her with) as a mistress of illusions she's also able to "jump traps" of other pieces in a way other might not. And yeah I see what you mean, but I do tend to relate illusions to the rpeceptions of other people- what you see is not nessecarily what another sees - kind of like the BOggart in HP PoA.

Yes *huggles ace for the umpteenth time and straightens his creases* he's starting to get rather swuished with all this hugging :P

No, me neither--I tend to think of her as being trained in more of an "apprentice" setting or equivalent, unlike the more institutional Knight education. The rundown estate thing works nicely, too.

What you see is what you want to see in some cases, but LI's less of an illusionist than a shapeshifter: it's not that she can construct mass, false edifices of unreality, or create mass deception like images of really big creatures attacking, or illusion of a massive hurricane, but she can change her own shape and she's quite adept at deception. She actually DOES change shape--uses Ace's powers and so forth--so it's not just an illusion that the clear-minded can see through, but an actual change that can be measured. She thinks for herself, definitely, but she's been cast as a reactive character throughout canon, not that doing things like taking Ace's place aren't proactive, because they can be defined as such.

Ace is cute. :P

Gotta love rundown estates :P you never know WHAT kinda people are gonna come outta them.

Hm... yes now that you mention it perhaps Illusion isn't the most appropriate of titles - sure she deals in things which "are not what they seem" but like you said - she actually physically morphs into people, takes on their powers etc. She isn't just creating a projection of that person. That's the difference, I think between morphing and just tricks of perception.

I think the best definition of morphing is the one we got from K.A. Applegate in her Animorphs series where her characters took on and applied the DNA of the characters they "aqquired" (unlike Lady Illusion they had to touch and aqquire a creatures DNA - whereas Lady Illusion probably just has to see them to take their shape, and learn a bit about them to emulate them successfully - didn't work hard enough with Mark, apparetly :P though I get the impression that that bad acting was deliberate, and she did have to stay in that morph for quite a long time). Then they could morph the creature for a certain ammount of time (2 hours being the max) befre becoming too fused with the DNA and becoming trapped in morph.

Also while in morph their human brain was affected by the animal one and, especially in instinct driven creatures such as ants or birds of prey, they had to keep a great hold on the animals instincts. Of course, this would probably give them a keen sense of how to relate to that animal - the kind of ability to understand that I assume LI gets from her morphing humans and various other animal.

In another difference to the animorphs, LI could morph something completely random and unreal - felicity Fury I doubt was based on anyone.

So technically, LI doesn't deal in illusions. In fact, you could say she deals more with reality than most of the other characters on the show.

Yes, he is :P you just can't cuddle him enough. Lucky LI :P

The rundown estate sort of backstory works in that it easily casts her as an aristo, but still gives a chance for a Dark Past--she's hardly the type to have been brought up in the lap of luxury.

I guess Mystique was already taken as a codename. :P In one backstory for LI, I had her taking the title of a famous ancestress, who really did deal in illusions of the mass-deception kind, in order to provide a bit of explanation into why she doesn't actually create illusions unless whatever you experience from the smoke bombs counts. I tend to relate her powers more to Mystique's abilties rather than Animorphs, because as you pointed out she doesn't seem to have many of the Animorphs' limitations (it's quite possible she is affected by human and animal instinct when transforming, and that's one of the reasons why the real world affected her development of emotions, but that probably won't ever be canonically confirmed). But having leftover mass from transforming going into the Datastream is a hypothesis similar to the Animorphs' basis for power, and I think it's valid enough, considering she appears to be a bit more comfortable as a dog than a dog weighing as much as she does (come to think of it, that wouldn't be all that much) would be.

No idea what this convo's about really, but I need to ask.

Why do you think she had a tough childhood? She's called Lady, she speaks well, she knows how to dance, moves gracefully, seems well educated, and so on. I'd say she was raised in a wealthy home.

I wouldn't say she's had a tough childhood either. There isn't anything that I've heard said in the series that would indicate that.

Because wealthy people from wealthy homes don't generally gain the sort of skills that she seems to have? Because she doesn't have what I'd call the 'ostentatious-aristocrat' attitude, of being entitled by the world? Because in 6 (under stress) she seems to have a more Americanised accent? Because you sort of need a Dark Past for her archetype of not-overly-enthusiastic villainess? Because you need some sort of source for Fear's influence over her, and a Dark Past would explain that?

I admit I see her place in the class system as either impoverished-aristo or someone more lower-class who's achieved something. She's evil out of mercenary reasons and likely enough a "no better choice" reason: she doesn't have Ace's desire to save the world or Sparx' desire to fight, and she's not committed to any ideological reasoning, so a Dark Past is really all you can have in the circumstances.

I'm not saying that she always has to be written with a certain type of past, but I highly doubt she was born with a diamond-encrusted spoon in her mouth. Unlike the more innocent Ace and Sparx, she's the type to have seen just how bad things can sometimes get.

What "lady" means in this world might not be the same in the Sixth dimension.

It could easily have been a tough or scary childhood for LI, given the kind of society the 6D appears to be. I would expect she grew up in a, as Sarah put it, "grow up or blow up" world where the strangeness of her life, and possible the danger or sleaziness in it, were considered quite normal.

Heck, it makes her more interesting as a character, and I'm always up for character development. And like Sarah says - she's the type.

I doubt Sparx had it easy either. I still saay she's got runaway written all over and things might;ve gotten dodgy for her now and then.

Oh, it's not. LI's more a lady in the sense of Lady Deathstrike than, say, Lady Mary Wriothsley; it's closer to being part of a codename than significant of being from a long and noble line. She isn't "Lady OF so-and-so," she isn't "Lady Firstname Surname", her name's more of a description of her powers: titles of nobility in the 6D would be more about power than ancestry, I suspect. You can also relate "lady" to the Elf Thing, because "Lords and Ladies" can be used to refer to the elves as a whole--in Uberverse, Anna and I decided that Lord/Lady was a translation of a standard title for every elf above a certain rank and ability level rather than a title only belonging to a select few, with either a description or surname tacked on the end depending on personal preference and ability.

You've got to seriously doubt that "Lady" in the 6D involves embroidery or other delicate pursuits--LI's only really "ladylike" qualities are that she's female, educated, and usually quiet. Her job description involves killing people and being on the front lines of battle. Not to mention, women seem to have functional equality with men in the 6D--powers would act as an equaliser, so Ace (the character most likely to show some 'chivalry') doesn't think twice about hitting a girl or attacking LI from behind, because she's a competent fighter more than she's some pretty damsel-in-distress.

Sparx would definitely be a runaway of some sort, but she's still an innocent in many ways--I'm not saying things never got tough for her, because it's fairly obvious that they DID at least as a Knight--she hasn't (entirely) learned that her impulsive choices can have awful consequences, thinks 'Kicking butt is fun' rather than 'kicking butt saves lives' or 'kicking butt is a job' or 'kicking butt kills people', and so on. I'd buy that she's a runaway from a privileged or reasonably privileged background, and definitely a rebel by being a tomboy (Knights probably would have a slightly more restrictive view of women's roles than evils, even if hiring is obviously equal-opportunity and feminism's hit), but not that she's got too angsty a past, because that just doesn't fit her.

Vwery true shadowcat *nods* but there's not really anything concrete in the series to suggest that Random was a mechanic, or that sparx was a runaway, or that Rick was bullied at school - we're just making assumptions and theories about what it could be - that';s what Meta is all about. Taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture and seeing what COULD be being suggested without there actually being any solid proof for it at all. A great deal of our converstaions (and our RP, in fact) are based upon theory and stuff we've made up. Maybe in canon LI doesn't have a dark past, though I don't think canon would ever work to give her one of go that deep. So we have to do it for them :).

On that note, I think I see what you mean baout the codename idea, sarah. It's very possible that all the characters use Codenames. It's likely that Ace took the name Ace Lightning as part of his career, and Sparx's name is also apt to her personality. They do seem like names the characters chose rather than were born with.

As for Sparx... yeah rebellion, possibly a runaway, I doubt she has a totally dark past or at least, still maintaines the innocence. It's going back to that ovnersation we had about sparx, remember, when we assumed that if it wasn't for her strict moral conduct, she would probab;ly be the "psycho " kinda bad guy who attacks for fun. If Sparx had had a very dark past which had tarnished her innocence, I expect she would've ignored of rejected such things as the code (which, still seems to mean a lot to her despite her brash behaviour) and been generally a bad guy - but she has such a strong mroal code that it's allowed her to maintain innocence.

For LI meanwhile, weirdness and danger may well have been a past of life, and lets face it, I doubt very much that this lady learned embroidary though she may have been made to balance books on her ehad, as a child :P (has anyone ever tries that? I can take three steps with a magazine on my head :P)

What's the point of balancing a book on her head. She's already got a blinking spider on her green-faced head. :P

I don't think anyone in the cast is going to have their backstories delved into, which is a pity, but that's rather what speculation is for, of course.

Ace's surname is SO a codename, unless he's Sueishly related way back to the guy who founded the Lightning Knights, and he's speshul but not THAT speshul. :P Sparx is probably a nickname, possibly a middle name from a mother who thought kreativ speling wuz kewl, though I think Random Virus just might be his actual name. Aside from that, descriptive codenames seem to be the norm, which can point to the whole X-Men-esque reasoning of human hatred of those with powers driving a war.

Yup, she's still got that strong (and rigid) moral code--which, in itself, points to a life where she probably hasn't had to make any really morally dubious decisions. An too-angsty past probably wouldn't produce someone like her--it'd more likely render her the Complete Psycho. Instead, she's still got enough innocence to believe in a world where everything works right most of the time and absolute moral principles are easy to hold, which is, IMO, something that's quite important to her character, even if her attitude can sometimes render her callous and close-minded.

I tried balancing books on my head. It never lasted long, since I preferred reading them. :P Possible, and a rather cute mental image, but I'd assume some genre of martial arts is more likely the main factor behind her grace.

Yes indeed it's a pity but at least it allows us to have a great deal of fun with these theories.

Sparxis a brave character - I ocne heard courage defined as being about to spit, swear, get mad, throw tantrums, cry and yet deep down still believe that deep down, the world is a good place and something worth fighting for. I'm not sure if that's naivety or wisdom, but most likely the former if you applied it to Sparx. In that sense, you could say Sparx's courage almost surpasses Ace's. But she also needs her boxes and when things cross the lines she's drawn in the ground with the point of her sword (i.e. Enemeies lover itnerest and her worst enemy becomes her closest friend's lover) she's going to get very confused. The world to her is simpler than it really is. Which is both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending upon the situation.

yeah surely books weren't inveneted to be placed on your head and walked about with :P six down and read em, you crazy victorian people you!

Courage would be Sparx' defining chararacteristic. She is such a Gryffindor. :P True, a lot of it's less bravery than it is fearlessness and recklessness, but there's no question as to whether or not she's brave. Her innocence and simple worldview play a part in this--her world's split into the good people and the evil scumbags, and she's going to fight for the former and blast the latter no matter what it takes--and, unlike Ace, she fights less because of duty than for sheer love of it.

And, damn, we need to find something more to say about LI too. :P

Yes, Gryff Sparx is just right, and I love her for it. Well done her, for engendering such a stereotype without turning into a Sue. :D
I'm sure it'll come eventually :P so long as it's meta I'm not bothered who we talk about :)

She's a complex character :P : there, build on that.

It's to do with the fact she actually suffers for her flaws, I believe--her attitude antagonizes Mark at the start, she rushes off into danger for herself and others, and so on. Yay for Sparx. :)

Yes, LI's complex--and can we say "character development"? She doesn't talk a lot in canon, so that leaves us free to make various inferences, and some of her behaviour (eg. telling Mark about the bomb in ep 2) can be interpreted in more than one way (in this case, gloating vs. subtle warning and not wanting children to get hurt). Certainly a morally ambiguous character, in that she cares for Ace, but doesn't seem terribly interested in saving the world. She just plain disappears in between series, and you have to invent some story in to cover the gaps (mine is that Felicity Fury worked in a New Age store and got a good reference for it). There's a certain amount of 'mystery' to her, as described on the official blurb, and that's probably more to do with her being quiet than having any less of a past than the other characters, but, unlike nearly every other character, her official role is perhaps not something she would have chosen for herself (no way she's ever in love with Fear in canon), which leads to Dark Past speculation.

Episode Six is the one where we start to see that she's really changing, and it's the start of her character arc, featuring defying-the-program, betrayal, and pain; and, in second series, you can't deny that what happens to her throughout is somewhat nastier than many other characters' worst experiences. Angst, it's said, can serve to make a character more sympathetic, and in her case this works: she has her good qualities, she's actually got the capacity to love, she's brave, she's intelligent, and some of that comes out while she's trying to survive and help Ace. Of course, it also helps that she's not a Sue, being a developed character with flaws.

She's sort of straddled between several cliches, Evil Overlord's Daughter (but she's not his daughter), Hero's Love Interest (but she's a lot darker a character than the usual meek maiden), Evil Empress (but she's not that...ostentatious), Evil Sidekick (but she doesn't really want to be), which IMO makes her a more developed character than most of the others. There's also a strong element of the 'tragic heroine' about her: we see her involved in very few comic moments; essentially, she's a 'serious' character, and the romance between her and Ace has the stamp of Melodramatic Love Of Destiny about it, a Romeo-and-Juliet-derived relationship that from the start was likely to end with at least one of them being destroyed (and the writers carried through on this, go them). And we've mentioned the Madonna/Whore cliche, and how she goes against the grain there.

Thanks, Scarab. :)

Not at all, Sarah :)

There's a lot to LI, asnd of course, we have to remember that most of it is fanon speculation which allows us to explore a lot of different avenues for her - it's the same with all the other characters.

Pre ep six - I agree ep six was the one where she started changing. Before that I agree that I don't think she's out to attack the defenceless if she can help it - she used a gas bomb on them in ep three, rather than something which would've destroyed them and seems to avoid destroying unless she can help it.

LadyIllusion and Ace's 'ship is just the pinnical cliche. They have done practically nothing with the stereotype of the doomed romance and we've seen it used so many times before. "Star-cross'd lovers" doomee from the beginning, but all the same, gaining something out of the ship. it'd the stereotype if the century and yet it worked for them so well, I have no idea why.

Pre 6, of course, she had the promise of redemption--no way she's done anything unforgivable, at least not to Ace's knowledge, and it's canon she won't harm humans/the defenceless if she can get a job done without it. As a villain, she'd view it as a rather lucrative job she happens to be good at; she'd get bored if she had nothing to do, but, unlike Sparx' passion or Ace's sense of duty, it's very much 'just a job' to her. Of course, casting her with mercenary motives doesn't make her especially morally palatable, but she's sane rather than psychotic, with some rules as to Proper Treatment Of Civilians.

It's a stereotype, but it's one that defied the stereotypes of the game, and for that reason it made sense; it hit the buttons of the Romantic Tragic Cliche, but it was done between a pair of two developed characters rather than shallow cliches, it was done well, with Ace being kind of innocent and LI making most of the moves and the witty banter between them and the approaching-each-other-as-equals thing. They also conveyed the tension between her and Lord Fear quite well, IMO: whatever his incompetence, he was rather good at threatening her, which made us really believe that Ace/LI was in danger.

Lady ILlusion knows how to survive and she will do what survival needs her to do - that doesn't mean she enjoys it. I can see her relishing her control and power to an extent, and she certain;ly enjoys having some attention, but you're right, she's drawn a line between herself and the "job" she has to do - which now doesn't apply anymore. I wodner perhapsif her "job" shields her from the world (her acts and threats, like to mark in "upgrades"or in "Face the Music" were just a bit too good to be for their interests alone, I think. And she probably enjoys the showing off.) She has a mask of the cool mercenary, but when Ace comes along she has to show her feeligns. Though really, it's her who makes the first moves in the relationship.

So it's a stereotype - but it defied another stereotype, which made it all pretty much even? Makes sense. Yes it wasn't shallow - that isd a mistake I think a lot of romances make - they bother too much about the eprfect ideal of bringing these two characters together in romance and forget to develop their characters beyound the crushing teenage girl who worries about fashion and boys all day which LI obviously isn't, but it's just an example) and the tough boy who sudden;y goes all squeaky soft when he meets this lvoely girl. Plus some UST thrown in. That's why I rpefer romanced not to be central to the story because it can deject from the characters unless done really well (some anime's pull it of okay, I think - OH/Ah My Goddess is suppsoed to have done a good job of it.)

And yes, I lvoed the way they portrayed the brutal relationship between LI and Fear pre ghis discovery of her betraying her for Ace. It really threw the romance to the edge of the burning pit, though I've seen some kids shows which deal with a good guy - bad guy ship in just one episode and mvoe on - which is a pity.

You're right--she's the "cold bitch discovering she has a heart" cliche. We've seen ample evidence she doesn't like to admit to weakness or emotion, though she has to reveal some of that human side to Ace. (She only admits she loves him on what is pretty close to a deathbed confession.) You could possibly relate this to "shame", too, in the whole rather creepy domestic abuse metaphor.

They don't change their personalities all at once as a result of the relationship, and it's a plot element and a thematic symbol as well as simply a relationship: it develops in (and, gameverse-wise, purely as a result of) the real world, it symbolizes the choices the characters now have to make, and it uses Ace and LI as themselves rather than cliche (he's an innocent idealist who's interested in a glamorous, complicated woman; she's involved in an entirely different sort of relationship and falling in love with someone kinder; according to Sparx it's 'always been personal' between them). It's not overdone, the melodrama works for these characters, and it's...sweet. He saves her when on the surface of it it would have been better for him to let her die, they both decide to defy their programming, she saves him... (Not to mention, they're both pretty good dancers. ;) And it's here we drag out the whole "vertical expression of a horizontal idea" thing. )

They definitely pulled off that "strong element of risk" thing very well, and completed the arc by having her 'destroyed', which was very well done. I hope they manage to deal with some of the issues in the Ace/LI relationship in later canon, have them converse and settle a few things. Good guy/bad guy 'ships do have Issues that need to be dealt with, and I'd like to see Ace and LI in some sort of debate involving their two different moral systems.

Yes you get the feeling that might've been LI's last attempt at making up for not beeing there before.

I wodner, in a post apolcayptic situation though, which side would Li choose? would she go with her emotions and moral correctness in a situation which didn't invovle Ace, or would she stil ldo the "logical" thing and side with evil?

yes. it is sweet, and here I'm glad to let them get away with all the cliches which would usually make me groan, cause for all the cliches it fulfils, the ship really isn't like any other i've seen before. Could be something to do with differences in species, or maybe I played too many videogames as a kid :P

Haven't heard that one yet :P but yes, that's a good impression, only more romantic, and the dancing is cute as heck :D (expcet if your name is Mark and you're watching and looking very confused over your gudiebook trying to find a loophole to explain it all :P)

yes we have to see their characters developed and their relationship going through some other phases - converstaion, for example. I liekd that episode suggestion you put to one of the episode titles where they end up in Lancaster, and have yoiu noticed that even RP lacks in any kid of casual covnersation to an extent? We need to see more of that :D

Post-apocalyptic situation--well, it'd depend on the exact details of the situation, wouldn't it? I think there's room for suggesting that she could swing either way, depending on who was in danger that mattered to her and what gain or loss was involved. If she'd, say, actually succeeded in getting back to the Sixth Dimension in episode 6, I can see her managing to take over that world, destroying Fear and Ace (out of necessity), and ruling it fairly enough. If Ace died, I think she would sort of 'give up' for a while, and again, depending on the exact circumstances, either fight for something 'moral' because he taught her how to care, let herself be swept up in events and possibly get killed, or go for practicalities and logic.

Well, it's usually the Evil Overlord's daughter, and LI's so far removed from the Meek Maiden Heroine it's not funny. Awww, they both work as characters and together. It's hard to analyse beyond, "they just did it RIGHT".

Problem is, Ace and LI spending extensive amounts of time together would be rather...boring. Sure, the dancing makes a nice visual, and they're both pretty people and a sex scene'd work reasonably well, but witty banter only goes so far, and they're both fairly 'peaceful' people so their relationship wouldn't have the electricity of Sparx/Anyone. It's more in the nature of "peaceful resolution; they've been through so much and they deserve this harmony" rather than anything that's especially entertaining to be a voyeur for. The more I see of Ace/LI interaction in canon the happier I'll be, but I'd respect a decision to, say, simply show them playing chess or absorbed in a conversation rather than give the full details of the meeting.

That makes sense... I think that pre Ace, practicality would certainly have worked. I'm not sure about her succeedijng in ruling a dimension, but she'd certainly give it a good go and has certain ruthless-but-capable leader qualities. I'm not sure she'd choose what was morally right, she's brave, but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want to die for a reason that is less that sheer love.

Damn it, I hate it whenthey do that <_< when something just works when it should have gone wrong, and for the life of you you can't reallyexplai nwhy. Course, this is just our opinion. I'm sure a good few people would groan at the final scene. Maybe we'd become used to the emotions and behaviour of the characters by then - though that turning out to be her proved a bit of a surprise.

Yes true, it's not much fun to watch domestic. But all the same it's nice to know it's "there" in the background. I mean if the show had been all Mark's relationship problems there wouldn't have BEEN a show at all - but the fact that the problems are there at least allow us to relate to the characters and link the fantasy to the real world they exist in.