Ed: Once again, the replys were messed up.

Scarab: Was thinking about every time the bad guys are wiped out and go off to their hiding places scattered around the carnival and got to wondering “how do they do that anyway?”

My personal theory is it’s some kind of alternate plain thing between the 6D and the real world (I know that only works alongside the 6D = real world theory, excuse that)that they exist on while awaiting to come out of artefacts at the carnival on command and the fairground artefacts are simply “portals” to this place. Any ideas guys?

I agree. Maybe there is some sort of plain between the Kent Bros. Carnival and The Carnival of Doom, because they are absolutely identical. Rick, or whoever was controlling the characters, must of picked the items the villains morphed into.

After all, Pigface morphed into a trash can that looked absolutely identical to Pigface.

Dirty Rat morphed into a gargoyle that was the same size and resembled him a bit, and also it symbolised watchfulness, like Dirty Rat does.

Anvil probably morphed into the strength machine, obviously because of his strength and also because the top of the machine is shaped like his anvil.

Googler morphed into the puppet show booth because the picture of the clown resembles him and also Zip and Snip are glovepuppets.

Rotgut morphs into the ninth hole of the carnival's mini-golf course. He even has his own grave, after all he is dead. Did you know that that wooden gravestone actually says Rotgut's name written on it.

Kilobyte morphs into the the ferris wheel, propably because the shape of his body and his tentacles.

Lord Fear and Staff Head morph into skeletons because they are...skeletons!

Lady Illusion, we do not know of. Yet, you believe Lady Illusion may morph into an oriental mirror or something like that.

I didn't know rotgut's name was on there:) maybe Duff painted it on or something?

And yes Li probaby is an ornamental mirror or something, I was hoping we'd find out in the last ep of series 3 but obviously not...

We don't see her morph into any object at the Carnival (other than that slightly sleazy-looking guy). Maybe like the Knights she doesn't have an object--another symbol, I guess, that she's different from the other villains.

That goes without saying really. :) She's different to all villians in the carnival, but I have to wonder about it...

Yes, it's interesting and kind of a reflection on the personalities, too. :) Ornamental mirror would be a good bet, but if she morphed into something they'd have had to show it by now.

I dunno... they have made a few niggly mistakes with this program (Heather's unexplained bitchiness, Mark's lack of character, Kat's... well, being there) it's possible they made another. I get the mpression we're more perceptive than the producers were :s

reflection of the eprosnalities? What do you mean by that exactly, something to do with the afct that she can mirror people and also their eprosnalities too?

Yeah, me too. The point about Ace, I think, is that it had an excellent concept, some really interesting situations, and some great characters, but there are also really stupid episodes, Heather and LI acting truly bitchy at times and Fear's incompetence, and...well, Kat, and your other suggestions. We come here on these forums and invent justifications for characters and events (I notice myself doing this a lot for LI.), BECAUSE the canon doesn't quite stitch in certain holes. We try to make an idealised version of it in our heads, because while the reality has its moments it has its flaws. Maybe that's why we find it so addictive as a fandom: because it has scope for speculation, apologetics, and fic. It's not a closed book, so to speak.

Well, okay, most of the morphs ARE more due to physical appearance. I meant, though, that some fragments of personality may also be involved: for example, Googler morphs into the puppet booth, which also refers to his enjoyment of...weirdness, and strength is something associated with Anvil's nature. The skeleton and the Ferris Wheel, though, are more reflections of physical appearance than anything remotely related to psychology.

We don't see her looking into any mirrors in canon, if I recall correctly, but perhaps she does in gameverse, and in the onscreen guidebook she's sort of looking at a reflection that's of some huge dragon creature. It's a fairly obvious image, of her staring into a mirror and changing shape, and one I've used in fanfic. And yeah, 'mirroring' is a pretty good word for what she does. I'm sure it's a metaphor that could be applied in many respects for her.

Yes children's shows often are addictive and entertaining because there's just so much you can do with them. This show is full of cliches - but there's a vast assortment of them which makes it, as Anna says "a fanfic writer's paradise". And yes it's not at all a closed book and the fiction could probably go on forever, it can be developeed in so many ways the possibilities are endless. While flaws are annoying they're also great for conversation :D

Kilobyte and the firris wheel - yeah you're probably right, that is more physical, then again ferris wheels - go really high right? Probably the scariest thing you'd find at a little in town carnival like this - that could be another like maybe... I'm grasping at straws with it a bit though.

A dragonlike figure in the mirror eh? That's interetsing scope for speculation...

As I've remarked before, she gets described as 'mysterious' on a couple of sources. And she's the type to have the angsty childhood and Dark Past. I had a slightly Sueish backstory for her (pre-27) where she didn't actually know her full potential and the point was that Lord Fear did, which explained why he hadn't killed her.

Or maybe she'll ride a dragonish equivalent of Fred next season to get around. :P

Yeah, I think that explanation for the Ferris Wheel is a bit slender, but hey, it does make a rather impressive and threatening sight for him to morph out of that.

Now lets see him morphing out of it when the kids are riding it and it's actually moving *mental imagine of kilobyte getting stuck in the rotary ("owch! Stupid mortal brats, stop moving this thing!") :P

The more I look into LI the more I like her... I joined this fandom disliking her in the extreme. Funny that...

if she rides anything that looks like a dragon I may be tempted to wince though...

Yeah, a dragon might be just a little Sueish. If she had to use a flying vehicle I'd go with more the small grav-sled type; something like the Green Goblin's flyer in Spiderman, only painted black. :rolleyes:

As the resident LI fan I'll take the blame for changing your mind. :P Glad you finally saw the light. Or the darkness.

Yes, that would be an inconvenience. Poor Kilobyte. *Giggle*

The darkness... DEFINATELY the darkness... well alright then, the varying shades of grey. :P

Flying cehicle though, that would be cool. Then again she's pwoered enough and she already has the option of turning into soemthing with wheels. That being said her and Sparx and arial battle would do me just fine :)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Dogfight! Squee! :D

We've never seen her turn into anything inorganic, have we?

Hm... no we haven't... yet the guidebook says she should be able to. But then if she turns into something inorganic, how will she be able to change back? it doesn't exactly have a consciousness/

Her name's 'illusion', which implies a certain lack of solidity rather than 'true' shapeshifting (but she does do the latter, of course). I know in your fics you've had her taking on the attributes and instincts of what she shifts into, rather than have her completely retain her own mind and feelings, and I think that's entirely plausible though not confirmed by canon, but maybe if she morphed into something inorganic she'd simply appear differently rather than destroying her mind. Besides, if she took on the, say, memoryspace of what she shifted into, if she morphed into something with a small brain would that mean she lost memories?

I don't think it's confoirmed by canon, but I don't think it's completely impossible as canon goes, yes. (To be honest I just needed an excuse to scare the wits out of Ace)

Rememebr Animorphs? They were morphing ants and rodents, but they didn't lose their memories in that sense, so I think I agree with you on that front.

The fact that she's called illusion I always allured to her ability to not be what she seens - she can put pn illusions to hide her true self. But eprosnally, I don't think she has to go as far as morphing something else to do that. ;)

Not to mention that to have her experiencing human form might have started the whole hormonal thing if she takes on personal attributes as well.

I remember Animorphs. Good stuff. LI doesn't seem to have any of their limitations, though. I think since it's guidebook-canon she probably COULD morph into an inanimate object or appear as one, but perhaps it's harder, and certainly it would be less useful considering that inanimate objects are less mobile.

What else would she have called herself? Mystique's already taken. I actually called an OC in Uberverse 'Shift', but I really can't think of any other good codenames. Maybe there's some mythology reference out there. Apparently the word 'maya' can mean 'illusion' too, but there's a wider meaning than that for the word. And the 'Realm of Illusion' actually sounds like it could be a rather interesting place. It's somewhat interesting, though, that it's pretty well established that she has a 'true' form, which she reverts to whenever blasted or given the opportunity, which is unlike other shapeshifting characters in fiction such as JK Rowling's Tonks (though admittedly she also could have a 'true form').

Hm... yes Realm of Illusion has that mysterious feel to it doesn't it, ithout being 100% cliche... it's not that original but I could live with it. :)

Maya... I don't think that name would work for her character for some reasson. Every now and then you come across a character that you really think doesn't suit their name... they're rare but they happen.

Yes, some names have certain connotations for different people. For example, the name 'Hannah' gives me the impression of a round-cheeked, fair-haired young woman who probably lives on a farm, although my sister of that name is nothing like that mental image. I don't think 'Maya' works for LI either, though it's a pity she's apparently nameless. Maybe it's something like the 'names have power' superstition--notice how the subordinate minions do have names, Ace's surname's probably an adopted one as it's after his job, Sparx doesn't seem to have a surname, and Random wouldn't subscribe to superstition. Or perhaps it's the X-Men-esque 'codename' thing again. Or maybe she uses her real name to maintain a bank account in Knight territory and she doesn't want that to come out.

Perosnally I thought the name Elspeth you came up to was rather appropriate for Lady Illusion. I also rather liked Flash's Amandine for lost princess sparx. I think it's becoming fanon.

I think it's probably codesque or something. But I'd like to think they have names.

Now Sarah is the name we both share - (means princess too actually... so Anna probably could call sparx sarah... actually I think it'd work)

I don't think so, actually. My theory for Sparx is that it's a nickname because her own is something she dislikes--something girly, like Amandine or Twyla or Seraphina. Sarah is a bit unobjectionable in that respect, though I hate the name because it's so common. Because 'Sparx' suits her personality perhaps a little too well; it's misspelled, as suits a younger person trying to be "kewl"; and we KNOW she'd hate any girly names.

I think the 'codename' explanation is the most plausible--they all have rather dangerous jobs, after all. Maybe Ace was rejected by his family after his powers blew something or someone up and he chose his surname for his job.

Rotgut called LI Elizabeth, and Allison Lightning called her Cate, like Elspeth English-derived names. Yet according to Feef her accent is French-Canadian, and to me she has something of the exotic about her, and I wanted to use Soledad for her once (Spanish for 'alone').

Soledad is an itneresting name which i rather like but I wouldn't attribute it to LI. but then soemtimes names only suit if you've been called it for a while (Scarab sounded really weird for a while - but now it's grown on me.)

yes I can really see sparx having a name she hates and choosing something mroe... well sparxy. I always had the diea that she was a bit of a tomboy, raised by someone, possibly a knight, who would remark about how 'sparky' she always behaved. And sparx picked it up. :)

Nice little ace past fic that. I can picture him having done something odd. I assume from the copy of the gudiebook an mst'd and sent me that lightning knigths have a variety of powers, but "lightning from wrists" wasn't actually on the list so... well, maybe...

I don't dislike the name sarah, but you're right it's awfull common, :b

Ace - for some reason I really like that name. I rather like the name Acelin, and I sometimes imagined that being his christened name.

Yes. I chose to use my own first name online, but I can see how it would be disorienting to be called a different name. (And sometimes I use Sarah Frost when thinking of myself, rather than my far-less-Sueish surname.)

Apparently Ace means 'highest rank' in Behind The Name, referring to the card (interesting considering both his nemesis and love interest are aristos), though in Latin it means 'unity' which is more appropriate. There's also the 'flying aces' of the Great War, who had downed at least five enemy planes in aerial combat. Acelin is pretty, though it sounds very feminine to me (I've also encountered a female Ace).

I think Ace's firing-from-wrists HAS to be a result of his powers. While Random and Sparx both have similar-looking wrist protectors, it seems that they can't use them as cannons (they would have used them already if so). There's no reason why further upgrades won't give Sparx or Random similar powers to Ace, to shoot from wrists (though it'd overpower Random and mean less Cool Sword-y stuff), but IMO the lightning bolts have to be a specific power, much like his flying.

I think LI can be perceived as exotic, and yet elves really are a Western concept, so maybe that's why she seems to be given English names. Proper English names too, not popular modern names like Brittany.

Theres nothing wrong with the surname Bull :) try Thompson <_<

Scarab IS a little sueish, I think. But is it a rule that a name is sueish just because it's unusual/has hyphens in odd places/is an item that' mytstical?

Those are some good abbreviations for the name Ace. I doubt it was anything like that, I have a feeling that they probably just thought it sounded a good name for a hero. Which it is.

All lightning knights must have unique powers, in the gudiebook extracts I got off An, it said that they could have powers including 1. Computer wizz2. Human magnet.3. Super speed.4. Super strength.5. Lightning bolts6. Invisibility

hm... you know ace has about three of those :/

Yes why is it that LI's name chocies always soubd fo english formal?

Well, technically, yes, but pen names are different. Scarab Dynasty COULD be a Sue's name, but to me it sounds less Sueish than a vague and interesting-sounding Yu-Gi-Oh reference. Most pen names could be Sue names--I actually found a HP Sue going by Sarah Frost--but really, the pen names to watch out for are the ones which share them with their characters and the ones like aceandladyillusion4eva (and yes, there WAS one of those at the old board). What's really bad about the names of Mary-Sues, IMO, is less that they're 'different' or 'special' but that they don't fit into the canon universe. For example, in the Dragon Booster fandom, which uses a lot of mythological names, Isolde Morgana might fit in, but Caitlin Fielding wouldn't, yet in our fandom Isolde Morgana would be Sueish, and if Caitlin is a friend of Heather's and the head of the Student Council she'd fit right in as a minor character.

I wonder if 'unique powers' means powers that have something to do with electricity, or not? Sparx, Random, Ace, and even Mark with the glove utilise electricity. But then again, Kilobyte also has some power over computers. Ace, of course, seems quite Speshul as powers go, though Random and Kilobyte trump him and LI has the widest range of abilities.

I really don't know. Lord Fear, now, is very clearly English, but she...well, one doesn't know. I'd like to write her as "deliberately having a neutral accent", though in 6 there's a bit where she sounds quite American, which could mean "in moments of emotion her accent betraying a rather more plebian origin". On the other hand, she's also a very stoic character, very quiet and self-sufficient, which comes under the whole British "stiff upper lip" thing, which perhaps explains why these formal English names seem to suit her.

So the sueishness of pennames seems very much to depend on the Fandom?

Urgh... you sould see the names we find in the YGO section... Yami'sminesobackoff, YugiAnzuTRuness Kaiba'sveryownpinacolada. I certainly prefer scarab dynasty.

Hm... i'm not sure about the elecricity thing. The fact that Mark can use the glove (and the lightning lance/sword of jacob) suggests that the powers of LK's don't rely on some natural baility to manipulate on electricity , as do the abilities super strength, invisibility and computer whizz i mentioned before. (Unless Mark's got something speshul going, which I hope not... please if you're going to make him more itneresting, guys there are oter ways of doing it)

Obiusly there is soemthing about the lightning knights which mean they rely on electricity - they power up, after all. but maybe the weapons nessecarily rely on it. perhaps certain abilities do and other don't. I always imagined the energy being dragged straight from their bodies to power the wepaons. but who says it has to be elecirical energy? And humans DO generate a very small electrical current in their heartbeat. Sop maybe the reason humans can use the weapon is something to do with that, or a psychic energy ernyone has or something... that might explain why mark could control the glove, yet simon couldn't. Weird enegry waves...

I know, weird...

You think perhaps lady illusion could be making a deliberate effort to speak another accent? I always imagined her being taught proper ettiquet in their old rundown estate and then thinking "Oh to white hot oblivion with this", dislking her accent and changng it. or perhaps making acceptances for fear or soemthing...

Where did you get the name "Scarab Dynasty" anyway?

Yes. Some names would be non-Sueish in some fandoms and Sueish in others. One mark of the Sue is a name that doesn't fit into the universe--just another example of SUES not fitting into the universe.

Our brains, also, run on electricity. While I don't think I'd like to see Speshul Mark, I would buy something along the lines of, perhaps, something about him IS similar to Ace himself in some respect (notice how they look alike) and maybe that's why he was subconsciously attracted to that particular game. Or maybe while bearing something as powerful as the Amulet and spending time with the Knights he absorbed some powers, just enough to operate that glove which his father can't. I agree he shouldn't be made Speshul, because new powers != character depth, but adding some extra dimensions to the plot couldn't go amiss.

There's no doubt she could fake an accent, of course. It'd really depend on whatever origin one writes for her. Whatever she was, it's probable she'd be attempting to do "ladylike" as far as Fear's concerned, and her accent seems to get less articulate and refined when she's stressed. I'd buy the rundown estate and being somewhat rebellious backstory, certainly, along with any number of backstories, and really, one could buy almost any ethnic origin for her. Honestly, her accent is ambiguous, she looks different to all the other characters, and she's the type to have had a Dark Past...

Incidentally, did you know that elves may be collectively referred to as the "Lords and Ladies"? (Anna and I made use of this in Uberverse.)

Scarab Dynasty is… an interesting story, Rotgut :) it’s kind of a personal one for me. All I can really tell you is that I was flicking through the pages of a history encyclopaedia and saw a picture of a scarab amulet. Didn’t know what it was at the time so asked my teacher about it, and they told me and the rest is history.

The “Dynasty” bit was rather impulsive, I just happened to be watching a TV program about Chinese monarchies and thought how well it seemed to fit with Scarab. A combining of two cultures.

Where did you come up with the name Rotgut and Wile E. Coyote? Or is that a silly question?

That’s the problem with sues, isn’t it really? The characters certainly are drawn to think the sue fits into the universe :( it’s the rest of us that notice otherwise. While sues are a curse to Fanfic, I also believe that they have to exist in some way shape or form. They’re somewhat of a part of our learning process. If my sues had never been there, I doubt I could have developed further.

I believe that there’s a fic on Fanfic.net which is planning on drawing upon the rebalance between Mark and Ace but I won’t say anything else since I don’t know-how much on the QT the author wants to keep her plot. A little character development in the sense you’re suggesting certainly couldn’t hurt the kid.

Yes Mrs able-to-mimic-voices certainly wouldn’t have any trouble imitating another accent. It’s part of her abilities after all (I’m stating the obvious there rather, but all the same…) The rebellious rundown estate is rather the back-story I’ve had going for her. There is a sense of refinement about her character, and she takes advantage of her status, but there’s another part of her that would not be madly out of place living as a wild girl in a junkyard.

I didn’t know that about the elves and Lords and Ladies. :) What an interesting idea. I wonder if there was some canon linkage?

Well, Rotgut is fairly obvious! Wile E. Coyote I got form the Looney Tunes, which I am a big fan of.

Oh, yeah, most writers have done Sues at some point, though the trouble with blanket statements like that is that when you make them any number of people are going to come forward and say, no, it didn't happen that way for us, and in the 'My First Sue' type of threads you always get the people who'll say that they've never written a Sue. It's generally a normal stage in development, and I think of it like this: first one writes Sues, then one focuses on the canon characters and how not to canon-Sue, and after one has gained experience and skill one then is capable of writing the well-developed OCs. Which, of course, is another big blanket generalisation.

Ah, yes. Nephew-in-the-sequel? Interesting idea drawing on the strong physical resemblance that exists between those two. Could give rise to some great meta implications; the free will thing would have to come up for example.

Well? Miss able-to-mimic-just-about-anything could have any sort of past, and whether she took Ladylike Behaviour 101 (which in the Sixth Dimension doesn't seem to include embroidery) as a child or an older teenager (I wouldn't like to write her as out of her twenties, because most of her actions strike me as the young-idealistic type, and she uses "little girl" as an insult). Probably because we know she could hide her origins, whatever they are; a Dark Past is almost necessary for that type of character. Definitely not the type to have grown up in the proverbial lap of luxury, but beyond that, who knows?

Lady is also a fairly generic title. According to references, in the UK it can mean the daughter of a Duke, Marquess, or Earl; or the wife of a Baron or Baronet. (source, source) But I doubt the Sixth Dimension would have a similar system to us, especially since I'm sure Lord Fear is the ruler of his own domains. Perhaps Lady's simply a codename in the sense of Lady Deathstrike of X-Men, or a 'courtesy', or even simply because she has powers.

I don't think she'll be an elf according to canon, but who knows; maybe they did have that particular trope in mind when they made her different to the other characters. I've always thought of alive!Fear as looking more like the Knights, though, 'human'.

Yes I get the imrpesison that Lady illusion has grown up knowing about the less "perfect" past - possibly arisocratic in some sense, but also possibly a brutal or at the least, atypical childhood. A family with a superficially dignified graceful outlook, but an internal ugliness.

I hear also that you can BUy a title, but I'm not sure if that includes lady, not that she has done so, but it's just another possible suggestion. hers was probably ocne a great and prosperous family or something...

Lord Fear... I had an interesting idea pop into my head just last night that he was a mortal in his human form. That he became a sorceeress through magical intervention, but got turned into that.. .skelton in the process.

Souron (or dent or Dent authurdent or... whatever) had quite an interesting diea I think, it'll be nice to see if she can pull it off. and Oh the meta potential! *squees*
How she is going to do it though, is something I am really wodnering about...

I think that it would be a pretty convincing Dark Past explanation if she escaped from something by ending up with Lord Fear. Or, harking back to the sexual abuse possible backstory, rather a sterile relationship with a skeleton than anything else. In Uberverse we had the trail of once-great and prosperous line now in decline, and gave her a not-overly-angsty past travelling with rough mercenaries including her parents.

It's an old trope, really--gaining power and immortality require certain sacrifices. Maybe he was a mortal a little too interested in sorcery than was good for him, or maybe the only way he could gain immortality was to become trapped in that form.

Soounds convincing, and I like the LI theory. The family being once great and now in decline really works for me. if only canon delved a little deeper (I am really gonna enjoy this comfic!!! :D)

fear I always assumed as being someone who messed around a little too much with thigns he wasn't supposed to. namely magic and sorcery and dark arts of some kind.

I wouldn't ever have considered him immortal though for some reason - even then undead can be destroyed.

Which reminds me IS HE dead or isn't he?

He's undead. He's immortal in the sense that if he dies it's not going to be in bed, but not immortal in the 'unkillable' sense of the word, or the 'god' sense of the word.

I can so imagine a teenaged!Fear. Human (sort of), kind of on the skinny-and-weak side, hair greasy from spending too much time musing over old books and not quite enough tending to personal hygiene, the equivalent of the faux-Gothic-poseur-who-likes-black-and-views-themselves-as-different-from-the-rest-of-us-mundane-souls-alias-the-kids-who-bullied-them-in-high-school, rather nice green eyes, Sensitive and Musical, hopelessly crushing on pretty elves who wouldn't give him a second look, deciding that 'Lord Fear' sounded like a really cool codename...

You know lord fear sounded like a rather interetsing character there until it got to the choosing his name bit :S

Immortal but killable... works for me.

When thinking about the other evils through, you can come up with some equally interetsing stories. I remember Rotgut had one once which certainly wasn't half bad and could really be developed on. I always thought of him as some insane pupetteer, and there has to be an explanation of his hatred of kids.

Ah, yes.

Rotgut wrote:

I always imagined Googler as having been created by Lord Fear, maybe as some sort of zombie, but I rather like the insane puppeteer backstory. And I don't think any of the villains like children much, though it's more the sort of general dislike that usually winds up as ignorance if possible rather than hatred leading to slaughter.

You have that whole thing? Wow... yes I do like Rotgut's abckstories. (I still prefer the name Elspeth to elizabeth... maybe because Sparx sort of thoughtof it :))

Yes ocne again we reinforce that the villias are for the most part, too dence for it to wind up as anything other than ignorance. Then again Pigface and anvil do seem to have something about crushing people. Anvil has obviously been taught crushing is a good thing (I'm harking way back to ep 4/5 No place like Home here - cardboard cutouts to practise on.)


They are entirely manipulated and will, not to put too fine a point on it, beliee anything, they're on fears side, join the rat as soon as he says a few words, join kilobyte for.. .well that was probably sensible... but overall dence, just follow whoever you go with.

Googler however, I imagine as haivng been quite intelligent once over, a hater of kids because they hated his show maybe, but then again there;s the possibleidea that he actually really liked kdis unti lsomething happened to change his mind and he absically went bonkers...