Bringing up this topic rather squicks me on a personal level, because it's taking a somewhat sordid real life problem and applies it to our pretty fantasy cartoons.

All the same, I think it's fairly clearly conveyed in the LI/Fear scenes in series two, however much the idea of applying the adjective "domestic" to those two characters irritates me.

Not to mention, it's a very relevant issue on a very real problem in our and most societies, and it's perhaps important to at least discuss these things. I don't know if I'm cheapening the issue by bringing it up in connexion with melodramatic children's cartoons, and as a middle-class white girl I'm not in a position to pontificate on it, but it's something brought up in the text itself.

I read the writer's intentions as falling more into the "melodrama" side of things. I am glad, story-structure wise, that they had Fear find out about Ace/LI, because otherwise he (as main villain) would have been made (even) more foolish. I wouldn't have predicted that they'd dare to go there, but I think it was the best way they could have gone considering the situation set up in series one. I doubt they were deliberately writing it as "domestic violence": I see it as being written to more melodramatic implications, that of The Traitor and Evil Overlord, something large and bass-chorded and expansive, rather than something that happens to all too many RL women. That being said, I think the "domestic violence" spin is a more than valid way of interpreting the text, and there are some creepy similarities to recognised patterns of domestic violence.

On an experiment done by one Lenore Walker, where dogs were tortured with electric shocks:

After repeated unsuccessful attempts at escape, they became increasingly passive and 'learned' helplessness so that they later spurned proffered chances to escape. According to Walker, the randomness and apparent unavoidability of their beatings produce similar reactions in battered women. They also develop a number of common characteristics, such as low self-esteem, self-blame for the violence, anxiety, depression, fear, general supiciousness, and the belief that only they can change their predicament. (D Nicolson and R. Sanghvi, "Battered Women and Provocation: The Implications of R v Ahluwalia".)

I'm not sure on the "low self-esteem" front, but "self-blame" is something we certainly see in LI: from ep 6 onwards, we see her anticipating that something like this would happen if Lord Fear found out she liked Ace, and it seems she views getting punished for it as 'inevitable'. If any other canon character had been in her situation--Ace, Sparx, even Lord Fear, whose reaction to Kilobyte can be contrasted with LI's to him--there's no doubt they'd be outraged at the least. Not so LI. The other qualities listed are also applicable to LI, especially the final one: throughout the series, she prefers not to talk about the problems she's facing, and only asks Ace for help once there's no other choice.

"Why don't they just leave" is a question often suggested when it comes to domestic violence; in the real world, psychology, economic duress, family duress, cultural duress, and the fact that violence may increase after leaving come into play, though in the text LI's explanation is programming, and in 'Choices' it's strongly implied that the only reason why she returns to the Carnival and hands over the amulet piece is due to Rick's intervention. This, in a way, raises her 'above' ordinary human women; she doesn't stay due to some psychological weakness, but an external control imposed on her. As a LI fan, I admit that I prefer the latter interpretation, though the former as a device of psychological exploration would certainly be fascinating.

Another quote:

Domestic homicides committed by women who kill tend to be defensive and victim-precipitated...They kill because they feel there is simply no other wa out. After previous failed attempts, they lose hope of escaping. The violence, tension and fear reach a point where death seems inevitable: a choice between suicide and homicide... (L. Ranford: "Pleading for Time: Justice for Battered Women Who Kill)

LI losing it in next series (if there WAS a next one), anyone?

LI's primary emotion when it comes to Fear seems to be not hatred, and not rage, but simply fear, as though of something she knew was virtually inevitable; it might be the programming thing again, but I find it hard to imagine her in a homicidal rage, comparing with her series two behaviour towards him. This is not a good thing, though, and I'd hope it changed in a third season.

So. Thoughts, anyone?

I agree with you – I doubt that they intended such a powerful imagery as domestic violence, and even if they did, doubted it would be looked into in that way (we’re lucky certain democratic TV personnel didn’t get a hold of these particular episodes :P)

I agree also that LI’s portrayal as stepping above this role is interesting and perhaps, fortunately, draws the episode content more away from these possible themes ever so slightly. Of course it would have been rather OOC for the writer’s to make her so passively beaten down and subservient, so perhaps her being “above that role” was simply a way of avoiding turning her into another cliché. Li has a habit of straddling various clichés. Not that this is a BAD thing.

oh, of course. Would really go for that and RP and fic has produced so many possible scenarios. And hey, watch it with the past tense on “WAS a new series” :P we’re not down yet.

You know it IS odd about Li and fear. Yes, she seems genuinely afraid of him and yes, she fills the role you just suggested. Yet I find it… odd that she’s still able to make herself sound so confident around Sparx: e.g. “Fool. If I wanted to attack you I could’ve done it when I had the chance”. And Ace and even other minions. She doesn’t even honestly seem entirely afraid of Kilobyte (though I expect she might be.) why?

I think it's the "programming" issue coming into play--as a minion (and perhaps especially as that sort of minion; it's a dangerous and untrue notion, but it's been believed that a woman giving consent to someone once gives them power over her forever, see also 'marital rape' and 'sexual history of the plaintiff') she was 'supposed' to be afraid of him, and despite the brief rebellion in ep 25, it's pretty obvious that the other minions, though limited by their intelligence and lack of imagination, are similarly wary. However, Ace and Sparx were programmed enemies rather than superiors, and the other minions are clearly her inferiors. And LI is not cowardly; "sensibly" wary, yes (eg. when it comes to Lord Fear), but she's not the type to get overwhelmed by fear and let that stop her from doing anything (including, obviously, betrayal).

While Ace does win against her in ep 4, the fight in ep 6 is cut off when she gets thrown into the transformer, and if she hadn't stopped fighting him in the first bit of 10 she'd probably have won, though beyond that we don't really see them fighting each other. She can at least hold her own with Ace, and a more than fair case for them as equals can be made. As for Sparx, we don't see Sparx ever win at the same time we see LI restraining herself, so no excuse for being afraid there. I also take the view that her hostility against Sparx was partially an 'excuse' for betraying Ace: she cares about Ace but she can still fight Sparx, it's still worth for Staffhead not to turn her in, and the hostility towards Sparx was an emotion she couldn't show towards Lord Fear.

It's canon LI can actually act against Kilobyte, which doesn't seem to hold true for Lord Fear; she also doesn't have former involvment with him. She's certainly wary of him, power-wise, but he never attacked her, and she made a decision to help attack him in a group, with the other alternative being to let Lord Fear destroy Ace and no doubt her later on.

Hope this made some sort of sense, I think it's pretty incoherent. Basically, LI's a minion/fighter by profession; fair enough to be afraid of someone against whom she can't fight back and who's been 'romantically' involved with her, less so to let that completely paralyze against action (she still helps Ace), unlikely to be more than "sensibly wary" of other powerful players, and extremely unlikely to be afraid of someone she can defeat and has done so. Unlike the Knights, LI knows about 'fear'--but one can more than assume that she also knows that it's not fear that's the problem, it's one's reaction to it, and while programming affects her she's hardly the stereotype of the paralyzed damsel in distress.

Yeah that makes sense to me, I think. It's a plausible explanation.

Can we draw upon other real life issues in this? because death should really be an issue in this show. The mortals risk it every time they goto fight and some of the CGI's have actually experienced it. Yet the reuslts and their reactions to it are different. Ace was completely confused by Mark's reaction when he shot Chuck "Once he stops he stops for good" just didn't penetrate. I wodner how they'd react to the actual event. Any thoughts?

The CGIs are a lot more resilient than the mortals; the Knights have the 6D to go back to on Earth, and I assume back in the 6D they fade into the Datastream rather than "just stop" as Mark had to tell Ace. And the minions have semi-immortality in that they go back to being physical objects any time they're injured above a certain level, as does the undead Lord Fear (and LI has the teleport to get herself out of trouble, and like the Knights the 6D). I think all of the CGIs would have experienced death in some form or another--fellow warriors lost in battle, maybe civilian family members caught up in the skirmish, Dead Parent Syndrome and so on, though it's quite clear that the mortals haven't. But considering the CGI plotlines essentially focus on a war, I'd say they certainly understand the concept of death--they just won't face it while they still have the 6D to go back to, and they can protect the mortals while they're at it.

death s frightening. Ace has recently started to get the gist of this. death is scary. pain is scary. bring hurt or watching your friends get hurt and know they CAN'T come back, is scary. They may udnerstand dying, but that's the thing that they DON'T udnerstand - the permenance of it. That's what's a really worrying possibility.

And, to utterly change the subject...

“My door’s always open.”

“…o it’s not. You’ve got a padlock. And a dead bolt.”

Yes, yes, bad joke aside, there IS an issue I’m raising here.

A padlock? A bolt, yes, maybe, but a PADLOCK? On a kid’s door? What’s that about? Why the heck would a young kid have a padlock and a deadbolt on his bedroom door? Bit excessive, ne?

There’s lots of potential explanations there (paranoia, not being the least one.) but to be honest, I find it a tad creepy. Why does a kid have that kind of thing?

Because there's a insane skeleton/squid man trying to kill him 24/7? :P

Who could qute easily come through the window? :P

seriously, dude, why did his parents let him HAVE a padloack? Mine wouldn't even let me have the door clsoed fully till i was eight

I'm not sure Simon meant he has an actual padlock and deadbolt literally. I think what he meant was that Mark wouldn't let his parents in his bedroom. (Teen privacy and all. :P ) However... I think there's a bigger issue than kids having actual locks on thier door... because really, Mark doesn't let his parents into more than just his bedroom. In his case, its for fairly obvious reasons. But, duh, your parents are there to help you, and I know it would mess up certain aspects of the show if they found out (or perhaps it wouldn't, if done correctly), but Mark's keeping a very big aspect of his life, as well as a TON of problems from his parents. I actually wonder how much of this they notice, and how much they put down to: quote: "he's just a teenager". At least they still manage to have him keep it under wraps, yet bring across "keeping things inside can only hurt you."

Having seen the fate of Jack Drake, I have to say the keeping it seret from his parents... may not be the wisest move. Certainly, it's convenient, but is it right? Most likely not. Parents should know these kind of things. perhaps a better option would be to tell them and just tell them to keep quiwet but it and not get invovled.

Then again, no decent parent in their right mind would do that if they knew their child was in trouble. Heck, most resonsible people wouldn't.

Anyone remember Sarah bringing up the issue of the image on the inside of Mark's locker? The picture of the girl with a padlock over her mouth? Coinscidence?

I think you already know, I'm fairly convinced they've put a couple of signs, pictures etc. in there that are supposed to mean something. That is probably one of them.

It's understandable why he does it (aside from the show may mess up, or at least involve parents more than the writers may think the kids want them to be, IMO, I don't think them being somewhat involved would be impossible), he doesn't want them to get hurt.

And yeah, I would expect his parents to be getting themselves involved if he told them (or, perhaps telling Ace to stay away from him?). I would be extreamly dissapointed if they didn't. 1) they wouldn't be particulairly good parents if they just passively let him continue placing himself in life threatening situations, and 2) it woudl be plain OOC.

Genuinly, this thing is amazing. How much work went into collecting all that info and then analysing and contrasting it?! Very well though, congrats. I agree completely. Bravo bravo!!!!!! :D

You realy are new to this, huh Kitty? ;) well like I said, we spend way too much time in fandom developing things like this.

All fictional stories relate to the human condition, be it Ace lightning or Star trek or heck, even younger kids shows like My Little Pony. Fiction is a way in which we relate our theories and dieas about the real worlds to each other.

Ace lightning draws on several of these issues, lady illusion is always being atatcked by the man to whom she's suppsoedly bonded in some way = potential domestic abuse theories. The need to keep secrets from people? Ace again. How we humans are often controlled by our emotions and do irrational thigns out of anger and pain? Ace gaining human emotions was a pure example of that.

Ace is packed with this stuff. The main moral of the series being the theme music itself "There's a hero in us all", it says, and that's the moral of the series - that you don't need to be superpowered like Ace to make a difference. mark helps change the world even though hes utterly, totally normal. And as he learns to be a heroalongside Ace, he's also teaching Ace how to be human.

...The more I read this, the more convicned I am that I need to write an ACe/TNG crossover... Ace NEEDS to meet Data :P

Of course, this doens't mean we can't explore other things in fanon.

Another good thing about the 'hero in us all' thing, is that it doesn't skip over the fact that doing so does have consequences. ie: can't tell anyone, which leads to misunderstandings, failing grades (although, some of that is due to Mark trying to cram his social in there first, not that you can blame him), and, who could forget, understandably cranky girlfriends. :P

And I would muchly like to see that Ace/TNG crossover, Scarab.

Oh, yes, that would be awesome!
I like the fact that Mark helping Ace has consequences. Too many shows make the kid a hero without having a lot of consequences. And the heroes almost always have super-powers or are geniuses and that gets annoying. At least Ace has some heroes in it who dont have super-powers and there's consequences for the super-powered ones as well, like Ace getting emotions, Sparx getting sent back to the sixth dimension and Random's good/evil thing. They're not invincible, which is far more realistic than super heroes who always get the bad guy with little to no consequences. I think it's one of the things that make Ace Lightning a great show. It's certainly one of the main things that keeps me interested in it. I think that if it were any other way, I would have lost interest in it by now.

Aha. But im still amazed u can know so much! BTW what is TNG? I can't seem to figure out what it is. I guess its a tv show.

Star Trek: The Next Generation. It's a science fiction show.

rather excellent one too. It's got EVERYTHING, androids trying to be human, quantum filaments, star ship captains who don't like chidlren getting stuck in elevators with three of them, a race that speaks entirely in metaphor, empathic concellors, holodecks, space battles, space diplomacy. Ooh! There was one time where they had to use Data's body as a circuit breaker to stop a plasma flow. He completely shorted out, except for his head, which had to be removed :P Meanwhile, a klingon is helping deliver a baby, and you're not sure who's more scary - the midwife or the woman in labour :P

And they say this show is boring geekdom?!

Heck, it requires more imagination and intelligence than 'OMGosh, I'm going out with Bob, but now he dumped me *angst* Meanwhile, someone who no one actually cares about (except for Clarisa, cus she's so empathetic) has fallen off a cliff and is in hospital etc.' Mmm... maybe I should have a crack at writing soapies. :P :weedman:

And at least when Star Trek goes into stuff like trying to deliver kids, they make it interesting! :D

Yes.... Sounds very...... interesting. Seems like it has just about everything!

Oh, yes, it's my favourite show of all time!

Keiko: *gets fed up of the klingon yelling at her while she's in extreme pain* I AM PUSHING!

Scarab: eeep O_O :P

I love TNG but DS9 is better in my opinion. Oh, and for anyone who's interested, TNG DVD boxsets are down to about $60. Bargain considering they're normally $200. New packaging, I think. Jo (Shadowcat) bought season 1 so that's what I've been watching all week! The only major problem I have with the show is Wesley. He's way too smart for a teenager.

Definitely. But that's the only thing wrong with it, in my opinion.

Wesley is the shows canon Gary Stu, as talented as the crew despite being just a child, being allowed on the bridge AT ALL (even if his dad was the captains best friend, Picard dislikes kids, remember? Always saving the day and his name is even taken because Gene Roddenberry's middle name, Wesley. The only time I really liked him was in Journey's End where he started going all nasty and awkward :P

Otherwise, cool :P

And Data is love :P